228 réponses à ce sujet

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ziggeh wrote...

KevShep wrote...

It means that he is in his mind. This could mean alot of things but keep in mind that indoctrination can make people see things like ghosts. Ghost>Boy.

Only one of those requires access to his brain, and read access at that. And while yeah, not arguing that indocrination could do that to, it's not like that right there clinches the deal because there's an entirely reasonable explanation. Or two.

There's no point for any of us to attempt to find any semblance of logic in the conversation between Shepard and the Catalyst. The entire scene is illogical and nonsensical. We cannot make sense of something that simple doesn't make sense. 

[Admiral H. Cain]

lillitheris wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Hallucinations are extraordinarily rare among people without a history of having them, and to my knowledge, Shepard has never had any hallucinations before this one. I'm assuming of course that Shepard did not consume any hallucinogenic drugs...

Hallucinations are extremely common. In fact, most humans suffer from them at least once during each 24-earth-hour cycle.

Besides, we're not even talking about spontaneous hallucinations. Plus there's explicit precedence for mind control, so this is by no means a stretch.

I should probably refine that point. I meant full blown schizophrenic hallucinations in which the user actually vividly creates a scenario in his mind, not daydreams. 

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 01:03 .

[Conduit0]

The only reasonable evidence supporting the indoctrination/hallucination theory is the Shepard alive teaser, as it does seem genuinely impossible to explain that scene any other way. Even if Shepard survived the point blank explosion in his face, there just doesn't seem to be any logical way to explain him surviving the destruction of the citadel.

I will however concede that the rest of the so called "evidence" supporting the indoc theory is pure speculation and has no real merit to it.

[KevShep]

Ziggeh wrote...

KevShep wrote...

It means that he is in his mind. This could mean alot of things but keep in mind that indoctrination can make people see things like ghosts. Ghost>Boy.

Only one of those requires access to his brain, and read access at that. And while yeah, not arguing that indocrination could do that to, it's not like that right there clinches the deal because there's an entirely reasonable explanation. Or two.

Iam not saying that it does "clinches the deal". Iam saying that there is no explaination AT ALL to him being the boy in his dreams, dispite this being a big deal in plot.

[Cucobr]

froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?

[2]

I'll wait until he do.


[img]http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000321915/polls_waiting_2814_161245_answer_7_xlarge.gif[/img]

[Thomas Andresen]

In Geoff Keighley's "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3", Mac Walters expounds on how the end of ME3 was designed to foster speculation. They wanted the ending to raise questions, rather than provide answers, which is, believe it or not, a method used to great success by many many writers before. Going by that, any theory that may or may not pop up on these forums may or may not be true. This is reinforced by Casey Hudson's statement that he does not wish to make a "post-Shepard" Mass Effect game. Other games in the universe is definitely a possibility, but none that takes place after the events in the trilogy.

So the endings aren't really bad. They're just not quite as suited for the Mass Effect fans as the writers thought. Myself, I enjoy any story that, in the end, leaves me thinking "what just happened?", "why'd that happen?", "I'm sure I missed something there.", "how is that possible?", and other sentiments along those lines, or any type of story that puts my brain in high gear. It's a controversial way to end a story, but it's not something that's new to storytelling. But if there's one thing I've learned about the BSN community, it's that controversy is never well received, and that was the first thought in my head when I finished the game. And that, in my experience, was the worst part of the endings. That I could to a large degree predict the negative response they would get. And to be completely honest, I feel ashamed of considering myself a part of a fan-base that can't seem to appreciate anything.

As for the scene on the Citadel.
Anderson comments while Shepard is making walking in the corpse-littered hallway how he seemed to have come out somewhere else than Shepard, and how the place seems to be shifting; possibly explaining how he got to the console before Shepard, and how Shepard only sees that one path.

When talking to the Prothean VI in the Illusive Man's control room, the VI says that the Illusive Man already had gone to the Citadel, and considering that he had already been indoctrinated, obviously the Reapers wouldn't stop him.

Admiral Hackett tries to contact Shepard after the encounter with the Illusive Man and Anderson's death. The obvious conclusion is that when he sees the citadel opening, he makes a leap of faith, which he sees as the only choice besides letting the Reapers win. To make that leap of faith, he has has to assume that Shepard miraculously survived, and made it onto the Citadel.

[hakwea]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...
Gawd, I love pseudo-psychology...

You said the following, "Except Shepard has been having hallucinations or hallucination-like dreams through out the entire game." 

Look up "lucid dreaming." 

So you want to get technical. Fine a Hallucination can only happen while not asleep given the accepted definition. But the hole in your theory is then that nothing says Indoctrination can't happen while you are asleep. After all many of the victims taken by collectors were put into a stasis pod and indoctrinated/turned-to-goo while asleep/stasis.

Lucid Dreaming also is one that is aware of their dream which it doesn't really indicate if shepard is aware of it. Or if Bioware is just giving you a little but of control during what would otherwise be a cinematic. Some things are ignored because it is a game after all. However shepard shows little control over his dream state which is one thing not in favor of lucid dreaming.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

In Geoff Keighley's "The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3", Mac Walters expounds on how the end of ME3 was designed to foster speculation. They wanted the ending to raise questions, rather than provide answers, which is, believe it or not, a method used to great success by many many writers before. Going by that, any theory that may or may not pop up on these forums may or may not be true. This is reinforced by Casey Hudson's statement that he does not wish to make a "post-Shepard" Mass Effect game. Other games in the universe is definitely a possibility, but none that takes place after the events in the trilogy.

As for the scene on the Citadel.
Anderson comments while Shepard is making walking in the corpse-littered hallway how he seemed to have come out somewhere else than Shepard, and how the place seems to be shifting; possibly explaining how he got to the console before Shepard, and how Shepard only sees that one path.

When talking to the Prothean VI in the Illusive Man's control room, the VI says that the Illusive Man already had gone to the Citadel, and considering that he had already been indoctrinated, obviously the Reapers wouldn't stop him.

Admiral Hackett tries to contact Shepard after the encounter with the Illusive Man and Anderson's death. The obvious conclusion is that when he sees the citadel opening, he makes a leap of faith, which he sees as the only choice besides letting the Reapers win. To make that leap of faith, he has has to assume that Shepard miraculously survived, and made it onto the Citadel.

I'm going to add this to my OP if you don't mind. Thanks for posting. 

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Hallucinations are extraordinarily rare among people without a history of having them, and to my knowledge, Shepard has never had any hallucinations before this one. I'm assuming of course that Shepard did not consume any hallucinogenic drugs...

Hallucinations are extremely common. In fact, most humans suffer from them at least once during each 24-earth-hour cycle.

Besides, we're not even talking about spontaneous hallucinations. Plus there's explicit precedence for mind control, so this is by no means a stretch.

I should probably refine that point. I meant full blown schizophrenic hallucinations in which the user actually vividly creates a scenario in his mind, not daydreams. 

schizophrenic hallucinations vs daydreams has nothing to do with the fact that we're talking mind control. When something else is controling your mind it doesn't matter what your previous mental health was.

[Admiral H. Cain]

hakwea wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...
Gawd, I love pseudo-psychology...

You said the following, "Except Shepard has been having hallucinations or hallucination-like dreams through out the entire game." 

Look up "lucid dreaming." 

So you want to get technical. Fine a Hallucination can only happen while not asleep given the accepted definition. But the hole in your theory is then that nothing says Indoctrination can't happen while you are asleep. After all many of the victims taken by collectors were put into a stasis pod and indoctrinated/turned-to-goo while asleep/stasis.

Lucid Dreaming also is one that is aware of their dream which it doesn't really indicate if shepard is aware of it. Or if Bioware is just giving you a little but of control during what would otherwise be a cinematic. Some things are ignored because it is a game after all. However shepard shows little control over his dream state which is one thing not in favor of lucid dreaming.

Yes.

Remember that WE are Shepard in our respective games. WE are participating in the dream. WE are very aware that it is a dream. 

That is the definition of a lucid dream.

[Ziggeh]

KevShep wrote...

Iam not saying that it does "clinches the deal". Iam saying that there is no explaination AT ALL to him being the boy in his dreams, dispite this being a big deal in plot.

I just gave you two....? What was wrong with them?

[CptData]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I disagree, IDT should be DLC

Pretty much this.

Just in case the OP didn't fully get it: the main reason why ppl support the IDT is to get rid of those events:

- Anderson / TIM talk feels odd -> indoctrinated / hallucinating Shepard
- Starchild + Decision
- Normandy's fate
- Shepard's survival in the Destruction Ending (high EMS).

Basically, the entire ending should be explained as "indoctrination/hallucination" of Shepard. And the DLC itself should give us a real ending.

[Cheezer]

Dude stop saying straw man to everything. Seriously, come up with another reason that your debunking works. It's sad that people had to come up with said arguments to begin with, don't make things worse. Plus, it's just a hypothesis, so it doesn't matter that their evidence isn't that strong. You can't disprove it nor can they prove it. Nobody but Hudson really knows which side is right. I think they might be right. Give them a chance and wait till bioware's next DLC answers the question. Just because you want to **** up everyones day doesn't mean you have to.

[Hanabii]

hakwea wrote...

Hanabii wrote...

You people need to... Oh, I dunno STOP FEEDING THE TROLL...

Seriously Original Poster, Watch the Vid in my signature, it's the COMPLETE Argument FOR the Indoctrination Theory. IF you would watch it, perhaps you could give your argument some weight.

The problem with your theory is if the Reapers had that much power and that much control why would they even leave shepard an option that allows him to break free? They wouldn't.  If as you say everything leads to a weakening of his will why does he suddenly become so strong willed at the end?

There are just as many holes in your theory as in any one elses. But you don't see them going around calling others that disagree with them a Troll. Stop feeding your youtube views and stop insulting others.

Someone with an ACTUAL arguement. THANK YOU!

The fact is they need a mix of useful and subserviant. The Process they are using on Shepard is the same as they used on Sarin. A slow acting Indoctrination to make the host think they are not in fact Indoctrinated.

This allows Shepard some breathing room, when the Reapers arrived the progression of the Indoctrination was kicked up dramatically.

Shepard had an inner reserve of strength left in his mind, As did Sarin. However Sarin, when he found his, was at a stage where he could barely reach a gun up to his own head. Also remember, Sarin had been implanted with tech to more easily control his body.

That said I don't think Shepard is perfectly unscathed either, I think he's been severely weakened in the best case Senario. The Reaper War is coming to a close, and Shepard managed to survive (Possibly) one bout of the final stages of indoctrination.

It means that as time presses on Shepard will either...

A: Have to deal with the Reapers before he's Indoctrinated (Again he barely got out of that last match... maybe.)
Or B: Be Indoctrinated... Perhaps those of us who chose the Blue or Green ending will have some intervention, possibly from the Rachni Queen much like the Thorian did on Feros to Shiala.

[Ecmoose]

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination because he has no past history of hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

Except that indoctrination causes hallucinations in it's victims regardless of prior exposure.

Straw man what?

Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Right, and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the presence of a Prothean VI.

Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Maybe you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

In fact, if Prothean VI's could detect indoctrination without fail, the entire Empire would never have been betrayed, they could just install the VI's everywhere. Talk about baseless argument.

Still waiting for your response....

[KevShep]

Ziggeh wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Iam not saying that it does "clinches the deal". Iam saying that there is no explaination AT ALL to him being the boy in his dreams, dispite this being a big deal in plot.

I just gave you two....? What was wrong with them?

 Iam not sure what you mean about access to the brain. What Iam saying is that the "game" does not answer that question , so I say why? Why doesnt Shep ask? Why does he look like that? There is not explaination and that is something that is eating away at me. There is something else that we dont know yet.

[Admiral H. Cain]

CptData wrote...

Tiax Rules All wrote...

I disagree, IDT should be DLC

Pretty much this.

Just in case the OP didn't fully get it: the main reason why ppl support the IDT is to get rid of those events:

- Anderson / TIM talk feels odd -> indoctrinated / hallucinating Shepard
- Starchild + Decision
- Normandy's fate
- Shepard's survival in the Destruction Ending (high EMS).

Basically, the entire ending should be explained as "indoctrination/hallucination" of Shepard. And the DLC itself should give us a real ending.

I tend to agree.

Look, my argument is that what we saw is exactly what we got, that is to say, Shepard was not hallucinating, and the ending was real. 

I would prefer that the Indoctrination theory is correct because the ending was horrid. There were far too many plot holes and inconsistencies. 

I disagree with your thoughts on the Anderson /  TIM conversation, however. It was actualy one of my favorite moments during the game. 

[Slaiyer]

When it comes down to it the only irrefutable evidence that can be made either for/against the Indoc theory has to come from Bioware either confirming or denying it. Until then (at least from what I've seen) all of it is just "Lots of speculation" and circumstantial evidence that mostly boils down to "Bioware screwed up writing the ending" or "they sold us an incomplete game".I will admit however that this is the best counter argument / debunk I have seen to date (most are very silly and ironically easily debunked themselves) against the Indoc theory. That does not mean it is by any means true either and here are some points that lessen the likelyhood of this speculation being true:

I) I agree that Anderson was to be portrayed as Destroy and TIM as Control, however this is where our agreement ends on this matter. They would not need this scene to foreshadow the following choice as throughout the entire game they have been foreshadowing this and indeed in the cutscenes displaying the choices themselves we see TIM and Anderson with their respective choices. Also, Shep was by no means meant to be the Synthesis chioce - this was Saren from the first game. In ME1 Saren rants on about him becoming the final step in evolution "part machine, part organic; the strengths of both with the weaknesses of neither."

II) The ink like tentacles are most certainly a sign of Inoc, as alluded to by the Rachni (on I believe to be 2 occasions; once in ME1 and then again in ME3); whether or not a sign of TIM indoctrinating is debatable.  Why would the reapers (most notably Harbinger) leave the Inoc attempt to TIM when Harby was on Earth, within 100 meters of Shepard, with no nearby reinforcements.

III) The purple glow from TIM implies a form of Biotics is used when Shep shoots Anderson, however never in any point amongst the three games has there ever been any evidence that supports biotics having the abitily to control a persons movements. The closest we've seen has been with the ability of Stasis, however this ability only immobilizes the victim and has a distinct Mass effect field type barrier shown surrounding the victim. ( I realise OP did not mention TIM biotics in depth, and when  he did he says it's Indoc.  I am meerly ensuring that this argument is out of the question(Biotics control mass effect fields, not people)

IV) Indoc has never been shown to be able to immobilize a subject completely, nor force them into doing actions within minute(s) of the subject being put under the influence of Indoc. Often this is reserved for days, if not WEEKS later, depending on the subject (will power), and wanted rate of minds decay ( fast Indoc = fast mind decay, and Vice versa.).

V) The size of an Indoctrination device has never been stated, however we can assume they are relatively large, and smaller ones lose potency. We can assume this by the size of reapers and their already long Indoc times. Reaper related devices are also believed to carry this power  ( A point that many Indoc theorists believe in), however do this MUCH more slowly. Should implants that allow Indoc exist it would only assume that they would also take a relatively long time to take effect (If not, I'd atleast say more than 10 seconds, which is roughly how long it took TIM to immobilize Shep during this sequence, if not less.)

VI) However it is hallucinations normally work don't necessarily apply here. We arn'y just talking about hallucinating, we're talking about the very illusive (pun intended) topic of indoctrination; it can't be assumed that traditional rules of hallucinations apply.

Sorry if this has already been posted and I missed it.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ecmoose wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination because he has no past history of hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

Except that indoctrination causes hallucinations in it's victims regardless of prior exposure.

Straw man what?

Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Right, and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the presence of a Prothean VI.

Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Maybe you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

In fact, if Prothean VI's could detect indoctrination without fail, the entire Empire would never have been betrayed, they could just install the VI's everywhere. Talk about baseless argument.

Still waiting for your response....

That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on. 

[Thomas Andresen]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

You think you are 100% certain on philosophical concepts... You have completely failed. 

Could you go ahead and tell me why we are here, and what our purpose is while you are at it?

This is exactly why the endings are far from bad.

[Ziggeh]

KevShep wrote...

 Iam not sure what you mean about access to the brain. What Iam saying is that the "game" does not answer that question , so I say why? Why doesnt Shep ask? Why does he look like that? There is not explaination and that is something that is eating away at me. There is something else that we dont know yet.

Ah, right, you mean in game explanation. Sorry, must have misread you there.

By access to the brain I mean it could be capable of reading thoughts and/or memories and went looking for a form that would carry emotional weight, and picked something current and held feelings of guilt and protection that might make her more inclined to listen.

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination because he has no past history of hallucinations; it's a straw man argument.

Except that indoctrination causes hallucinations in it's victims regardless of prior exposure.

Straw man what?

Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Right, and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the presence of a Prothean VI.

Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Maybe you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

In fact, if Prothean VI's could detect indoctrination without fail, the entire Empire would never have been betrayed, they could just install the VI's everywhere. Talk about baseless argument.

Still waiting for your response....

That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on. 

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

[Admiral H. Cain]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

You think you are 100% certain on philosophical concepts... You have completely failed. 

Could you go ahead and tell me why we are here, and what our purpose is while you are at it?

This is exactly why the endings are far from bad.

I see it oppositely because Mass Effect was never a philosophical exerecise. Sure, it had some philosophical overtones, but you can't make an RPG without at least a bit philosophy inserted into it. 

One of the problems with the ending is that we were hit with a full on philosophical assault. The majority of us wanted to defeat the Reapers, and then see how our decisions affected the galaxy, as the driving force behind Mass Effect was basically this: 

Choices have consequences.

You could also look at it as Newton would have:

To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction.

This is what Mass Effect's "theme" was, in my opinion of course. 

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 01:22 .

[doodiebody]

There's enough oddities to make that whole part feel like a "dream sequence" at first, but it later seems to even out as if that wasn't their intention.

I've said it before, I think they may have flirted with the idea of the whole illusion thing and either ran out of time to pull it off, or changed their minds. It would explain why there's so many powerful clues, yet at the same time feeling those clues might not add up.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 01:24 .