228 réponses à ce sujet

[Saremei]

Indoctrination is not controlling someone's body against their will. It is NOT being a puppetmaster. TIM does not have any indoctrination powers. Indoctrination is influencing their mind to believe ultimately in doing things in line with the reaper's plans. End of story on that plot point.

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

Okay, you argued the second point.

What about the first? You can't pick and choose your arguments.

[Cant Planet]

Questions of "why did the Reapers/Harbinger give Shepard the Destroy option" are rather missing the point of the Indoc theory -- which is that Shepard is not in the Citadel or any other Reaper technology at the end. Shepard is within his/her own mind, while laying unconscious on the ground in London.

[Slaiyer]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

That's a fairly circumstantial argument itself and assumes quite a bit... Like the Protheans not installing enough VI's to do at least initial security check...

Modifié par Slaiyer, 25 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[Admiral H. Cain]

Saremei wrote...

Indoctrination is not controlling someone's body against their will. It is NOT being a puppetmaster. TIM does not have any indoctrination powers. Indoctrination is influencing their mind to believe ultimately in doing things in line with the reaper's plans. End of story on that plot point.

Miranda's father specifically told the Illusive Man that full control, note the word control, over the Reaper's was possible. He had discovered a way to control them on a smaller scale. 

[Admiral H. Cain]

Slaiyer wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

That's a fairly circumstantial argument it's self and assumes quite a bit... Like the Protheans not installing enough VI's to do at least initial security check...

And your argument isn't circumstantial? Can you prove that the Protheans had VI's doing security checks?

Modifié par Admiral H. Cain, 25 mars 2012 - 01:27 .

[Personuknow]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Yeah, I'd love for those who believe in IT to explain how Shepard is killed by TIM in one scenario if it really is a hallucination...

The Illusive Man represents the imposition of Reaper will upon Shepard, where the Catalyst represents a subversive appeal by the Reapers to Shepards desire for an end to the conflict.

The Illusive Man killing Shepard symbolizes, essentially, Reapers brutalizing Shepards mind beyond tolerance. If Shepard lacks the will to subvert their direct mental assault, they succeed.

When that direct assault fails, the Catalyst choice is presented as an indirect means by which the Reapers attempt to gain Shepards acquiesence to Reaper will. The option of Destroy, the choice by which Shepard rejects Reaper will, is painted as a violation of Shepards loyalty, duty, and honor - opting for Destroy means an end to certain parties Shepard has befriended, and it means (supposedly) that organic life as a whole is doomed to extinction; an extinction that would be squarely the fault of Shepard. Opting for Control or Synthesis means preserving life and ending the conflict in a manner preferable for the Reapers: that is, with them still intact. While these choices violate everything Shepard has spent three games fighting for, choosing them is painted as preferable.

There's only one party in the Mass Effect universe that we know with
certainty exists, and that is in favor of the Reapers continued
existance: the Reapers themselves.

Shepard opting to leave the Reapers intact is an acquiesence to their will, and as such represents an implicit permission for them to exert full control over Shepards mind. This leaves him either enslaved, or more likely given his condition following the Conduit rush, dead.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

Okay, you argued the second point.

What about the first? You can't pick and choose your arguments.

You only made one point.

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Slaiyer wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

That's a fairly circumstantial argument it's self and assumes quite a bit... Like the Protheans not installing enough VI's to do at least initial security check...

And your argument isn't circumstantial? Can you prove that the Protheans had VI's doing security checks?

you're the one providing the theoretical "debunk" burden of proof lies on your shoulders.

[Slaiyer]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Slaiyer wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

That's a fairly circumstantial argument it's self and assumes quite a bit... Like the Protheans not installing enough VI's to do at least initial security check...

And your argument isn't circumstantial? Can you prove that the Protheans had VI's doing security checks?

I don't disagree with my argument being circumstantial. I am merely stating that it would seem logical for them to do so and simply stating they didn't is equally circumstantial..

[hakwea]

Hanabii wrote...
Someone with an ACTUAL arguement. THANK YOU!

The fact is they need a mix of useful and subserviant. The Process they are using on Shepard is the same as they used on Sarin. A slow acting Indoctrination to make the host think they are not in fact Indoctrinated.

This allows Shepard some breathing room, when the Reapers arrived the progression of the Indoctrination was kicked up dramatically.

Shepard had an inner reserve of strength left in his mind, As did Sarin. However Sarin, when he found his, was at a stage where he could barely reach a gun up to his own head. Also remember, Sarin had been implanted with tech to more easily control his body.

That said I don't think Shepard is perfectly unscathed either, I think he's been severely weakened in the best case Senario. The Reaper War is coming to a close, and Shepard managed to survive (Possibly) one bout of the final stages of indoctrination.

It means that as time presses on Shepard will either...

A: Have to deal with the Reapers before he's Indoctrinated (Again he barely got out of that last match... maybe.)
Or B: Be Indoctrinated... Perhaps those of us who chose the Blue or Green ending will have some intervention, possibly from the Rachni Queen much like the Thorian did on Feros to Shiala.

But if he is being indoctrinated he couldn't have been on the citadel faced with 3 options. Because it was "all in his head". You honestly think the Reapers would let the only thing capable of destroying them reach the Citadel just to indoctrinate Shepard?

So lets assume shepard did really go up to the citadel. So he is there and the crucible does something. Why would the reapers, and the child AI, tell Shepard the truth about what does what? Why wouldn't they tell him that the Green destroyes the reapers when it really doesn't.

The fact is that your theory has nothing to prove it. Shepard being shown in rubble could very well show that he is indoctrinated. Where as him melting away into a blue beam could be the Reapers being purged from his mind and him being "free" of their influence.

Or he could have just never gone up there and everything was a dream while he was passed out. All theories can be supported with what happened because what happened is incredibly vague with no real connection or explantion in the game.

And the biggest hole of them all is that Shepard would have been destroyed if he picked the red beam and it did what the child AI said it did. Because shepard is part machine. It is how the Illusive Man brought him back from the dead and is a core part of the upgrade system in ME2. If all synthetic life was destroyed included geth, EDI and organic synthetic hybrids like Reapers and their creations then Shepard couldn't have possibly been left alive. But he was.

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

Simple. The VI's weren't everywhere all of the time.

Okay, you argued the second point.

What about the first? You can't pick and choose your arguments.

You only made one point.

Oh really? Let's recap:

You:Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Me:Right,
and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden
Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the
presence of a Prothean VI.

You:Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Me:Maybe
you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in
the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If
the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the
indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed
within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and
Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

You: That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final
moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on.

Me:Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically
states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the
invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that
caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle. These are two different events.

...thus, you avoided the initial point.
Awaiting your response

Modifié par Ecmoose, 25 mars 2012 - 01:35 .

[Admiral H. Cain]

Ecmoose wrote...

Oh really? Let's recap:

You:Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Me:Right,
and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden
Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the
presence of a Prothean VI.

You:Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Me:Maybe
you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in
the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If
the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the
indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed
within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and
Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

You: That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final
moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on.

Me:Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically
states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the
invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that
caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle. These are two different events.

...thus, you avoided the initial point.
Awaiting your response

What is it you're looking for here?

[Thomas Andresen]

Slaiyer wrote...

I don't disagree with my argument being circumstantial. I am merely stating that it would seem logical for them to do so and simply stating they didn't is equally circumstantial..

There's no point in arguing this issue beyond the fact that the betrayal didn't happen during the sequences Shepard saw on Eden Prime. Which obvious because they were already under full assault by Reaper forces. Anything beyond that, however, is circumstantial guesswork.

[Apollo-XL5]

Cant Planet wrote...

Questions of "why did the Reapers/Harbinger give Shepard the Destroy option" are rather missing the point of the Indoc theory -- which is that Shepard is not in the Citadel or any other Reaper technology at the end. Shepard is within his/her own mind, while laying unconscious on the ground in London.

Seriously, ok then, you see you cant just tell someone to do something(mind control) it has to be more subtle, so the reapers gave shepard all the options to see if he was tricked into believing their way over his own.  Control, synthisis or destroy, but with destroy they made sure that it sounded the worse option (with the destruction of the geth and EDI).

[hakwea]

Ecmoose wrote...
Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle.

And again, if VI's could detect indoctrination without fail why were the reapers still using sleeper agents?

The attack on the facility and the location of said facility were obtained by the sleaper agents. The destruction of most of the pods happened when the northern (I think that was the direction stated) blast doors couldn't be sealed do to damage. It was then that the VI started to do the neutron purge to save the remaining pods and the facility. The facility was to damaged though and couldn't auto-awaken leading to the only Javiks pod to remain after all these years.

No where does it flat out state the doors couldn't be sealed because of spies. It implies the doors were damaged by the attacking forces. But if those doors didn't get damaged they still would have saved a large number of protheans. Just not all of the protheans they could have saved if they weren't betrayed.

[Ecmoose]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Oh really? Let's recap:

You:Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Me:Right,
and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden
Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the
presence of a Prothean VI.

You:Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Me:Maybe
you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in
the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If
the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the
indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed
within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and
Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

You: That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final
moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on.

Me:Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically
states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the
invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that
caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle. These are two different events.

...thus, you avoided the initial point.
Awaiting your response

What is it you're looking for here?

I stated that the Prothean VI on Eden Prime didn't detect indoctrination, thus allowing sleeper agents into the facility and thwarting Javiks plan.

You tried to say that the VI wasn't present because the betrayal happened before these events. I have now proven that Javik was betrayed at two different times, the last being in the facility with a VI that, according to your theory, can detect indoctrination without fail, but didn't. Cut scenes clearly show the VI's presence in the facility.

So, if VI's can detect indoctrination, why didn't it?

So now you're being called upon to defend your theory.

Nice attempt at misdirection.

[Thomas Andresen]

Ecmoose wrote...

Oh really? Let's recap:

You:Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Me:Right,
and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden
Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the
presence of a Prothean VI.

You:Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Me:Maybe
you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in
the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If
the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the
indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed
within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and
Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

You: That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final
moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on.

Me:Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically
states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the
invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that
caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle. These are two different events.

...thus, you avoided the initial point.
Awaiting your response

As far as I can see, you're running around in circles. I can't see any point in your arguments.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Oh really? Let's recap:

You:Except that Shepard wasn't indoctrinated... The Prothean VI proved it. 

Me:Right,
and the VI's are fool proof. If I recall Javik was betrayed on Eden
Prime by members of his own race who were indoctrinated...in the
presence of a Prothean VI.

You:Prove it. 

Javik never mentioned that a Prothean VI was present when he was betrayed.

Me:Maybe
you didn't see the same cutscenes I did but there was clearly a VI in
the station that was betrayed to let the Collectors inside.

If
the VI could instantly recognize indoctrination why let them [the
indotrinated Protheans] into the facility? If they had not been betrayed
within the station there would have been no reason for a purge and
Javik wouldn't have been the only stasis pod to survive.

You: That wasn't the part where he was betrayed. Those were the final
moments of the Prothean empire; he was betrayed far earlier on.

Me:Wrong. Yes, his Squad betrayed him earlier on, but he specifically
states that their plan to enter stasis and wait out the rest of the
invasion was communicated to Reaper forces, leading to the disaster that
caused him to be the only Prothean left in our cycle. These are two different events.

...thus, you avoided the initial point.
Awaiting your response

As far as I can see, you're running around in circles. I can't see any point in your arguments.

I'm not the only one, then! 

[Slaiyer]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Slaiyer wrote...

I don't disagree with my argument being circumstantial. I am merely stating that it would seem logical for them to do so and simply stating they didn't is equally circumstantial..

There's no point in arguing this issue beyond the fact that the betrayal didn't happen during the sequences Shepard saw on Eden Prime. Which obvious because they were already under full assault by Reaper forces. Anything beyond that, however, is circumstantial guesswork.

Any discussion involving Indoc is purely geusswork. I have yet to see an argument that flawlessly debunks the theory as any "evidence" from either side is purely subjective. It all boils down to whether Bioware are bad writers (Which is unlikely given their past (excluding DA2, which even wasnt this bad)), or they sold us an incomplete game for a larger profit margin.

[Thomas Andresen]

Ecmoose wrote...

I stated that the Prothean VI on Eden Prime didn't detect indoctrination, thus allowing sleeper agents into the facility and thwarting Javiks plan.

You tried to say that the VI wasn't present because the betrayal happened before these events. I have now proven that Javik was betrayed at two different times, the last being in the facility with a VI that, according to your theory, can detect indoctrination without fail, but didn't. Cut scenes clearly show the VI's presence in the facility.

So, if VI's can detect indoctrination, why didn't it?

So now you're being called upon to defend your theory.

Nice attempt at misdirection.

There's nothing to indicate that there was any kind of betrayal during those last moments.

[Thomas Andresen]

Slaiyer wrote...

Any discussion involving Indoc is purely geusswork. I have yet to see an argument that flawlessly debunks the theory as any "evidence" from either side is purely subjective. It all boils down to whether Bioware are bad writers (Which is unlikely given their past (excluding DA2, which even wasnt this bad)), or they sold us an incomplete game for a larger profit margin.

I'd argue that I think DA2 is an excellent game, but I'm not up for defending two games.

[Admiral H. Cain]

Slaiyer wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Slaiyer wrote...

I don't disagree with my argument being circumstantial. I am merely stating that it would seem logical for them to do so and simply stating they didn't is equally circumstantial..

There's no point in arguing this issue beyond the fact that the betrayal didn't happen during the sequences Shepard saw on Eden Prime. Which obvious because they were already under full assault by Reaper forces. Anything beyond that, however, is circumstantial guesswork.

Any discussion involving Indoc is purely geusswork. I have yet to see an argument that flawlessly debunks the theory as any "evidence" from either side is purely subjective. It all boils down to whether Bioware are bad writers (Which is unlikely given their past (excluding DA2, which even wasnt this bad)), or they sold us an incomplete game for a larger profit margin.

That's the point of a straw man argument.

It's literally impossible to debunk every point conspiracy theorists use to "confirm" that 9/11 was an inside job, but the simple fact is that it wasn't an inside job. 

[hakwea]

Cant Planet wrote...

Questions of "why did the Reapers/Harbinger give Shepard the Destroy option" are rather missing the point of the Indoc theory -- which is that Shepard is not in the Citadel or any other Reaper technology at the end. Shepard is within his/her own mind, while laying unconscious on the ground in London.

But it still won't work, as a every game play through option. Because some Shepards saved the geth and were friends with them. Some got tali of all people to be friendly with them. Some shepards got EDI to fall in love with Joker. And then the "break free of indoctrination" option is the one to destroy all of that? Why would that be shepards last ditch effort of strength if it goes against who he is? (Who he is determined by past game choices)?

There were no ending choices that were clearly created by shepards mind that represented him fighting the reapers off if based on who shepard was. If the writers wanted to ignore the choices that made the game such a hit then yes it could be the break indoctrination option. But still if the reapers will controlling the hallucination/dream/whatever why wouldn't they switch the options around? Why wouldn't they really say red is to control.

And if it was all a Hallucination/dream/whatever shepard would live no matter the choice since it was all in his head. He might have been indoctrinated but that doesn't mean he would be auto-killed. The reapers likely would have used him as a figure head to convice others to surender or demoralize them even further rather then kill him.

[Hashbeth]

So you definitely put some thought into this, and I appreciate the effort. However I have a couple points to ask you to keep in mind (and I hope this makes it through, OP, as there are some epic quotes later in this thread that are eating up huge chunks of a page at a time ^ww^).

-edit- some typos

So first on the hallucination information:
1) I don't think everyone is 100% agreed amongst the Indoc community that it is a hallucination. In fact, if the destroy ending is to be believed, the indoctrination attempt occurs while you are unconscious (when the Indoc effect is amplified, as I believe it states in the codex). So on this point, the hallucination conflict is moot, as it is more like a dream.

2) It's an interesting idea about TIM and biotics. Unfortunately, if this is dream-like occurrence fostered by harbinger, then it's hard to prove, either way, that TIM is real. I'm quite sure Harbinger would have been accurate in his portrayal if this was fake (so your idea on Biotics still provides a lot of food for thought).

3) The embodiment of different endings is interesting, but also somewhat stilted. We have very little prior evidence to support this three-way split. If anything, Shepard has been the most vocal proponent for destroying the reapers throughout the games. For him to suddenly represent synthesis makes very little sense. Especially when, at its core, Synthesis involves mass homogenization, which Shepard is very much against.
3a) Also the only real leitmotif for any over-arching idea, embodied by any one character, is that of dreams and memory with the child.

4) On the Prothean VI: There is a strange rumor that the Indoc Theory must be based on a fact that Shepard has been indoctrinated from the beginning of the game. This need not be true. In fact, it makes more sense to think that, with Harbinger 100 yards away, the time after the final assault will have the highest chance of success to indoctrinate Shepard.

Finally: Your theory also apparently states no disproof of the Indoc theory. The only attempt is the 'anti-hallucination' argument, which is both very interesting, and quite valid. It definitely confirms to me that, if Indoc theory is true, it is occurring while Shepard is unconscious.

Anyway, that's my two cents

Modifié par Hashbeth, 25 mars 2012 - 01:51 .