228 réponses à ce sujet

[Thomas Andresen]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I'm not ruling out indoctrination but thanks for the hard work. The Indoctrination theory was the only way i could finish this game. The ending is just that bad.

I really can’t get into the circular logic, and it doesn’t fit the “against all odd” concept. I can’t see Shepard wanting to keep the Reapers around. I also wouldn’t believe Ghost boy. It was too weird to believe for me. I do respect anyone who liked it. I really can’t see myself putting any money into DLCs with Shepard taking advice from Ghost boy. I was just sitting there waiting for a renegade interrupt. For me at least I’m hoping it is indoctrination, bad dream or hell too much Red Sand. I’m wondering why bother getting all those WAR Assets and playing Multiplayer if your choice is RED, GREEN or BLUE.

I'm going to try this once and then I'm leaving. I needed to be in bed 5 hours ago.

I think people are mistaken when thinking the three available choices in the ending signifies the possible number of endings. In fact, I'm 100 % sure it's wrong. It's not an unreasonable jump of logic, but it is still a jump of logic. The cut-scenes, and the overall ending sequence is largely the same, that is true. A big reason for this is that Hudson wanted a final scene that all players would experience the same in all playthroughs(namely, the stargazer scene). But people seem to ignore that there are zounds* of nuances reflecting a great many of the players' choices throughout the game series. Many choices and consequences are resolved during the course of the game, others are poured directly into the "EMS"-rating, which in turn affect the result of your choice.

To provide an example, in one of my playthrough, destroying the reapers, the top of Big Ben crumbled in the blast. In another, same choice, higher EMS, what was left of Big Ben survived the blast, but I still didn't have enough to see the scene with Shepard moving in the rubble.

TL;DR: The endings look mostly the same, but if you think about it, they really aren't.

Also, I'm not saying the "Indoctrination Theory" is right or wrong. I'm saying that the ending isn't bad, and it's "open to interpretation" on purpose.

[DemonsSouls]

Dave Hoffman wrote...

You can't assume that Shepard is having a hallucination without any past history of hallucinations.

Ooooo, I like paradoxes. I have a question then. If one can't have a hallucination without a history of hallucinations, then how does anyone with a history of hallucinations ever have a hallucination to begin with? Paradox.

I've wondered something else as well. The final sequence should not be possible. When you're talking to that AI child on top of the Citadel where the crucible is docked to it, it's not inclosed, you're in the vacuum of space. Yet, you're standing in tatered armor and not wearing a helmet. Since ME1, Bioware has been pretty steadfast about slamming a helmet on your head whenever you're not in an oxygen-rich environment. I can't believe that they simple got sloppy at the end with something that obvious. To me, that reinforces that it's not real.

The evidence is staggering. The ending is riddled with holes and makes zero sense if taken at face value. Plug in the Indoctrination Theory, the holes vanish and it all makes perfect sense.

So either Bioware mapped this out or they completely forgot everything about their own universe in the last 15 minutes of the game. I'd like to think they are not that  incompetent. 

Modifié par DemonsSouls, 25 mars 2012 - 04:25 .

[ineedammo09]

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends.

Fans having to create a theory just to make any rational explanation of the last 10 min of ME3 shows how much it didn't make any sense in so many ways that we just have to chock it up to it all being a dream.

[DemonsSouls]

ineedammo09 wrote...

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends.

Fans having to create a theory just to make any rational explanation of the last 10 min of ME3 shows how much it didn't make any sense in so many ways that we just have to chock it up to it all being a dream.

And yet it's still a much better option than leaving the ending how it is.

Bioware dun goofed, huh?

[jolsty]

DemonsSouls wrote...

ineedammo09 wrote...

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends.

Fans having to create a theory just to make any rational explanation of the last 10 min of ME3 shows how much it didn't make any sense in so many ways that we just have to chock it up to it all being a dream.

And yet it's still a much better option than leaving the ending how it is.

Bioware dun goofed, huh?

I like to think that all that plot hole stuff is just the Star Gazer filling in stuff he couldnt know in his story to the kid.

[dakka dakka]

the biggest proponent to the dream theory that I have yet to get debunked is WHY there are trees much like the ones from your dreams behind you after you get hit by Harbinger. They weren't there before.......EVERYTHING you experience after being hit is a dream and THIS is proven by the FINAL/HARDEST/BEST ending Where Shepard wakes up.

Prove why the trees are there then we talk. Otherwise you blowin smoke with no substance.

Modifié par dakka dakka, 25 mars 2012 - 04:49 .

[DemonsSouls]

dakka dakka wrote...

the biggest proponent to the dream theory that I have yet to get debunked is WHY there are trees much like the ones from your dreams behind you after you get hit by Harbinger. They weren't there before.......EVERYTHING you experience after being hit is a dream and THIS is proven by the FINAL/HARDEST/BEST ending Where Shepard wakes up.

Prove why the trees are there then we talk. Otherwise you blowin smoke with no substance.

Yeah. The trees are pretty compelling evidence that everything after being hit is not in reality (at the very least). Because there is absolutely no reason Bioware would put them in that part unless they were trying to connect it with Shepard's dreams. It's too deliberate.

Modifié par DemonsSouls, 25 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[ineedammo09]

DemonsSouls wrote...

ineedammo09 wrote...

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends.

Fans having to create a theory just to make any rational explanation of the last 10 min of ME3 shows how much it didn't make any sense in so many ways that we just have to chock it up to it all being a dream.

And yet it's still a much better option than leaving the ending how it is.

Bioware dun goofed, huh?

I definitely agree with you on the BW goofed this one. But with subscribing to the Indoctrination Theory we are now left with no ending at all instead of a really crappy one. I think i'd rather take the punch in the face (crappy ending) than being kicked in the nuts (being sold an $80 dollar collector's edition with no actual ending)

[Hunter_Wolf]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ultai wrote...

The big wrench in the cogs for the indoc theory is the Prothean VI never detects indoctrination on Shepard.

Exactly... People love to ignore this part. 

I do believe the Prothean VI stats something along the lines, "My protocols have been breached, I will comply." So even if the VI detected indoctrination, it was already compromised to the point where it told TIM the information he needed - you know, the guy we all know was indoctrinated. 

But besides that, there's still various variables and misconceptions made by people, such as yourself, who don't know indoctrination and what it entells to the letter. I don't know what else to tell you beyond, everything you say is just additional speculation subject to... speculation. At this rate this cycle will continue for thousands for years too.

Modifié par Hunter_Wolf, 25 mars 2012 - 05:04 .

[TeaKae421]

ineedammo09 wrote...

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends..

That is the main reason, why I don't buy the indoctrination/dream sequence theory.

What it's basically saying is that whilst Shepard is waging a battle in his mind, the battle is still raging outside and presumably (we can't be sure either way) the Reapers are winning and Sword is having the hell beaten out of it in orbit, whilst Hammer is being completely obliterated on the ground.

So, winning the battle in Shepard's mind is a win for Shepard, kudos and all, but doesn't seem to be very helpful seeing as Shepard is in no state to help out and the battle is still going on. I don't believe that that was what Bioware were aiming at or intending to be so.

Alternate explanations for ME3's ending has become more and more akin to conspiracy theories in terms of the circular reasoning and logic employed. Looking ridiculously deep into every random detail, when ordinarily nobody would care enough to notice.

[Hunter_Wolf]

TeaKae421 wrote...

What it's basically saying is that whilst Shepard is waging a battle in his mind, the battle is still raging outside and presumably (we can't be sure either way) the Reapers are winning and Sword is having the hell beaten out of it in orbit, whilst Hammer is being completely obliterated on the ground.

While I understand the predicament this could throw the story into, all it means lore-wise is that the war isn't over yet and Shepard still has a signal to activate. As players, it means there was only one ending and it isn't over yet - the others were fake and phony to give new comers a sense of completion. 

[DemonsSouls]

Hunter_Wolf wrote...

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Ultai wrote...

The big wrench in the cogs for the indoc theory is the Prothean VI never detects indoctrination on Shepard.

Exactly... People love to ignore this part. 

I do believe the Prothean VI stats something along the lines, "My protocols have been breached, I will comply." So even if the VI detected indoctrination, it was already compromised to the point where it told TIM the information he needed - you know, the guy we all know was indoctrinated. 

But besides that, there's still various variables and misconceptions made by people, such as yourself, who don't know indoctrination and what it entells to the letter. I don't know what else to tell you beyond, everything you say is just additional speculation subject to... speculation. At this rate this cycle will continue for thousands for years too.

Not only did the second VI say he would comply, but even if he wasn't able to sense Shepard as an indoctrinated presence at all, it does nothing to counter the Indoctrination Theory.

The entire Theory is based around the idea that the end sequence is the ACT of indoctrination. It is the point of no return. Shepard either resists the indoctrination or he gives into it.

So this Prothean AI stuff is nonsense. It doesn't matter whether it sensed Shepard as an indoctrinated presence because according to the theory he would not have been indoctrinated yet anyways. Only if Shepard chooses control or synthesis is he fully indoctrinated.

Modifié par DemonsSouls, 25 mars 2012 - 05:16 .

[CarlTheNoob]

froggeh2 wrote...

I missed the part where you debunked the theory?

[ineedammo09]

TeaKae421 wrote...

ineedammo09 wrote...

If the dream state indoctrination theory is true then that means the battle and war is still going on while Shepard is knocked out and doing this.

So according to this theory the last 10 minutes of ME3 was a dream sequence and we don't even know who won the war or how the game ends..

That is the main reason, why I don't buy the indoctrination/dream sequence theory.

What it's basically saying is that whilst Shepard is waging a battle in his mind, the battle is still raging outside and presumably (we can't be sure either way) the Reapers are winning and Sword is having the hell beaten out of it in orbit, whilst Hammer is being completely obliterated on the ground.

So, winning the battle in Shepard's mind is a win for Shepard, kudos and all, but doesn't seem to be very helpful seeing as Shepard is in no state to help out and the battle is still going on. I don't believe that that was what Bioware were aiming at or intending to be so.

Alternate explanations for ME3's ending has become more and more akin to conspiracy theories in terms of the circular reasoning and logic employed. Looking ridiculously deep into every random detail, when ordinarily nobody would care enough to notice.

My thoughts exactly!

[ineedammo09]

Forbes magazine has an interesting article & vid on the indoctrination theory. This may be more sinister than we thought:
http://www.forbes.co...and-future-dlc/

[DemonsSouls]

ineedammo09 wrote...

Forbes magazine has an interesting article & vid on the indoctrination theory. This may be more sinister than we thought:
http://www.forbes.co...and-future-dlc/

Very interesting. And I wouldn't put it past EA, honestly.

The sad thing is... I'd be all over the DLC if it did continue the story with the IdocTheory. And that's what EA is counting on.

Modifié par DemonsSouls, 25 mars 2012 - 05:31 .

[I Soya I]

His hallucination that you say is non-existant is the kid, the theory covers this. So other then that I must have missed the debunk part.

[FS3D]

DemonsSouls wrote...

ineedammo09 wrote...

Forbes magazine has an interesting article & vid on the indoctrination theory. This may be more sinister than we thought:
http://www.forbes.co...and-future-dlc/

Very interesting. And I wouldn't put it past EA, honestly.

The sad thing it... I'd be all over the DLC if it did continue the story with the IdocTheory. And that's what EA is counting on.

Not me. If the DLC is free, I'll look at it. If they charge... I'm out.

[Agent_Dark_]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

TIM is (somewhat successfully) attempting to indoctrinate and control Shepard and Anderson using his new implants.

The problem I have is that this was not foreshadowed in the game prior to the Citadel scene at all.  The mission on Horizon very clearly (and repeatedly) mentions that Cerberus were researching into how to control the Reapers.  Shepard is not a Reaper.  Why then does the Illusive Man suddenly have the ability to indoctrinate Shepard? 

All through the game, every scene with TIM has him arguing the merits of controlling the Reapers.  Indoc Theory would say that the final scene with him onboard the Citadel is a continuation of his earlier appearances, with TIM representing the Control 'Demon' if you like to Anderson's Destroy 'Angel' in Shepard's head.  Your argument would say that instead he shifts his end-game goal from controlling the Reapers to controlling Shepard.  And to what end anyway?  What does he gain from controlling Shepard?  Why doesn't he just shoot Shepard and Anderson to neutralise their threat to him, then activate the Crucible to control the Reapers?   

I mean the StarChild shoots your argument down in the very next scene anyway, where he outright says that the Reapers are controlling The Illusive Man.  Why then would it be TIM attempting to indoctrinate Shepard, and not the Reapers themselves, since TIM is just a Reaper pawn anyway?

[ineedammo09]

DemonsSouls wrote...

ineedammo09 wrote...

Forbes magazine has an interesting article & vid on the indoctrination theory. This may be more sinister than we thought:
http://www.forbes.co...and-future-dlc/

Very interesting. And I wouldn't put it past EA, honestly.

The sad thing is... I'd be all over the DLC if it did continue the story with the IdocTheory. And that's what EA is counting on.

Thanks for taking the time to look that up. Here's another interesting one about the Indoc Theory if you have the time:

Indoctrination Theory= "What do you do when your ending doesn’t make any sense and you’re faced with crippling plot-holes, disparate story lines, and an inability to draw a vast adventure to any kind of satisfying close? You just pretend none of it actually happened. It’s the “and then he woke up” strategy, a solution as old as storytelling itself. And it’s the gist of the indoctrination theory." - Forbes Magazine (full article in the link)

http://www.forbes.co...e-easy-way-out/

[Cyberfrog81]

Admiral H. Cain wrote...

Watch the scene again. Observe TIM controlling both Shepard and Anderson. It's exceedingly obvious.
(...)
He attributes it to [the Reapers] because it is Reaper Tech; Miranda's father discovered this on Sanctuary.

Let's be clear that this is your interpretation. Not saying you are wrong, simply that when I first saw the scene, I interpreted it as the Reapers letting TIM believe he had Reaper powers.

The Reapers are able to deceive this way, letting you believe you still have free will and control, when in fact you're theirs. In any case, as mentioned before, the TIM scene can't disprove indotrination theory, because if true the above scene takes place in Shepard's mind. Sort of a mind-game within a mind-game. TIMception.

One of the fun parts of indoctrination theory is the notion that the game is actually trying to indoctrinate us, the players, so that we come to believe that we, unlike TIM, can control the Reapers; or that we, unlike Saren, can achieve synthesis (and even that synthesis is a good thing). Yep, it's indeed all speculation, but at least it's fun.

[hakwea]

Cant Planet wrote...
As I see IT, the choices Shepard is presented with -- more precisely, the choices Shepard produces for him/herself -- don't directly impact the world. They are internal. The "Indoctrination" aspects of this scene might be literal (in that the Reapers are literally having an effect on his/her mind and actively trying to fool Shepard), or they might be metaphorical (in that Shepard's subconscious is presenting the question "can I go on?" to her/him in a form that is meaningful and imminent). I tend toward the first option, but I'm not tied to that interpretation.

In either case, the entire scene is similar to the old cliche of the white light characters face when they're near death. Either they give in and move toward it, or they resist the urge and return to life to continue on with their struggles.

If Shepard is convinced that Synthesis or Control are the way to go, it signifies that Shepard has lost the will to follow the original path of destroying the Reapers, and dies on the ground.

If Shepard sticks with it, and chooses the Destroy option, it signifies s/he still has the will and strength to carry on the fight.

That is a fine way to look at it but the problem is that they didn't tailor the options to the choices you make in the game. I just don't see Shepard giving himself the way out by choosing to destroy all synthetic life and not just the reapers. The problem with the choices are they all have losses for the gains they give.

If the destroy option was different depending on your attitude towards the geth, edi, and the choices you made towards synthetic life then I could get behind IT whole heartedly. But when the only option that doesn't lead to indoctrination is "destroy geth, edi, reapers, and himself" I don't see it as the mental victory. As its destroying what the Reapers want you to destroy along with them. For all we know the Child AI has more Reapers in dark space or that the reapers were only destroyed on earth/around earth.

Each option can easily be explained to carry the will to fight on. And being free of indoctrination. And really if it was all a hallucination/dream then each sequence should have ended showing the shepard body in the rubble, just some with him indoctrinated as the reapers wouldn't insta-kill him once indoctrinated. They would use him.

[hakwea]

Hanabii wrote...
Headgames and lies is what that boils down to. If they make Shepard think he, his allies and EDI are going to be destroyed by destroying them, it makes it a lot less attractive of an option. While the other ones he still 'dies' and thinks that his allies will survive on. And in the other two. As Control his 'mind' lives on controlling the reapers. As Synth his essense carries on in all living things.

The reason they wouldn't want Shepard to think she is destroying the reapers is because they want to squash that seed in his mind. If Shepard thinks he is controlling the reapers then they get to exist, control him all the while he thinks he's the one in charge while the suplant his reasoning.

Synthasys makes shepard a direct pawn as well, while providing an option not as 'basic and fallable' as the illusive man's control idea. If he sees everything as Hybred and the reapers as no longer part of the cycle then he suddenly becomes a pawn of the reapers while still under a human roof.

The Destroy Ending is the only one they really don't want because Shepard breaks free in it.

If you have low EMS you are shown the world burning, everyone dying but it is the only option. I suspect because if you rush it, you've had less exposure to indoctrination by the end and Shepard at that point would have the will and ability to question the motives and methods of other options making them invalid.

I suspect low EMS ending = dead shepard or at least him not waking up. AKA a heavy mind shock where the reapers do as much damage as possible to try and stop him from recovering.

But if they are playing head games with him then why even make the option to destroy the one that actually destroys the reapers. That option could really be the one that allows him to become indoctrinated because he is willing to sacrifice his friends and thus his last shred of resistence is broken. Either way shepard would still be alive no matter what color he chooses and the reapers would still be a threat if it was all in his head. Indoctrination doesn't auto-kill.

But if the red beam was real, it would have killed shepard since he is part synthetic and the red beam killed all synthetic life even if it was an organic synthetic hybrid  (since the reapers are synthetic organic hybrids as are much of their troops).

But I just don't see a sentient race such as the reapers and a AI created to direct the reapers would just so obviously give shepard the "destroy" option as a real destroy option. If their goal is to indoctrinate him and trick him then why would they make it clear but only less desirable.

Thats the problem with the whole IT, because so much is left open to subjective interpretation. While its clear that shepard was trying to be controlled by the IM which was made possible because the IM had his "reaper control implants" and shepard was part reaper. The proof of indoctrination attempts ends there.

[hakwea]

ghostbusters101 wrote...

I'm not ruling out indoctrination but thanks for the hard work. The Indoctrination theory was the only way i could finish this game. The ending is just that bad.

I really can’t get into the circular logic, and it doesn’t fit the “against all odd” concept. I can’t see Shepard wanting to keep the Reapers around. I also wouldn’t believe Ghost boy. It was too weird to believe for me. I do respect anyone who liked it. I really can’t see myself putting any money into DLCs with Shepard taking advice from Ghost boy. I was just sitting there waiting for a renegade interrupt. For me at least I’m hoping it is indoctrination, bad dream or hell too much Red Sand. I’m wondering why bother getting all those WAR Assets and playing Multiplayer if your choice is RED, GREEN or BLUE.

Yeah I couldn't believe the Child AI. I was waiting for the "punch the kid in the face" option. Or for EDI to hack the AI and reveal the man behind the curtain like in Wizard of Oz. Or even the crucible to have its own AI that could over ride the Child.

All the options are basically a win for the reapers and their goals. Why knows if every reaper in the Universe was destroyed or if there are more in dark space or even if only the ones in the Sol System were destroyed. But if cutscene of the explosions were to judge only those in range of Mass effect relays would have been destroyed since the explosions happened only in those systems.

Which would explain why joker was attempting to flee the explosion if you choose green or red. He was trying to save anyone on board that was syntehtic (red) or everyone from being changed (green). Don't see why they would flee blue...

That also brings up the question of just how much was in shepards head. Perhaps the ending scene of him living was just a implant by the reapers while they control his mind. Or was just his soul less body laying in rubble cause he gave into the reapers.

The endings were okay when I look at them objectively but it left to much unexplained. If they explained the endings a little more in-depth and showed a little more to each one it would have been perfect. I don't need perfect closure just want to know the story instead of the blurb on the back of a book summary.

[hakwea]

DemonsSouls wrote...
There is only one way to the control room. Anderson says he came in behind you. Then he goes on to describe the exact rooms you go through as if he is walking right beside you. The entire time you are in the Citadel, you have a view of the only path to the control room. Even IF Anderson was teleported to a different spot than you, we'd still be able to see him as he goes into the control room. But we don't. So either Anderson is lying, or he was never really there.

Or it is as he says, and the station is changing and shifting. Which would lead both anderson and shepard to the same location but one could have a shorter path.