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Archengeia hits the spot again. His new video shows what Bioware became.

Débuté par Guest_Paulomedi_* , mars 25 2012 01:16

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#76
Guest_Paulomedi_*
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 02:52

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humes spork wrote...

Paulomedi wrote...

I do agree with you. The whole conflicted started with Geth/Sovereign/Saren vs. us the Organics. and this conclusion would fit perfectly for me.

His first video gives insight on alternative stories and endings, and why, although he prefers Dark Energy theme, he would go with any theme which was consistet, and gave the player choices for wildly different endings, without of course changing the plot.

In the third video he expresses his opinion why this happened, and of course, it's his opinion.

But it's one of the best that I saw.


I do agree the game should have had much more latittude for variance in the ending, but only so long as it stayed true to the trilogy's central theme. Basing ending variation around multiple different ongoing themes (which I must say dark energy is not credibly among) is an interesting concept in theory, but I have the sneaking suspicion in practice it would fall extremely short of expectation due to the enormity of the task.

My issue with the dark energy thing is it's a left field goofball thing that's self defeating and circular to the point of undermining the games' and universe's very premise. It's just bad science fiction. It could have came from the desk of Arthur C. Clarke himself and it still would be a steaming turd of a potential plotline. It's the kind of thing that I actually read and think critically about, and can't help but think if this is the best Karpyshyn came up with it's no wonder he was pulled from writing for Mass Effect.

Seriously, the real world equivalent of the dark energy plot would be giving a cargo cult a functioning, armed thermonuclear warhead, then intentionally waiting until they've accidentally detonated it to warn them of the dangers of nuclear weapons. It's that mind-bogglingly bad.


I think it falls more in the lines of " I give them a nuclear warhead that I don't know as well how it works. I see how they tinker it, and I reap them to give me more insight in how a nuclear warhead works!"

Modifié par Paulomedi, 25 mars 2012 - 02:58 .

#77
Warrior Craess
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 02:53

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Jack_Forest wrote...

You know, I think "people who care" argument he has is actually quite valid - I actually bought Kingdoms of Amalur because I could feel  that the people who made it cared about the game. It's not the same feeling with ME3... 
Of course, I could still be suffering from ME3 ending and see things that isn't there.


See I found that 95% of this game felt very cared about.  It's just the ending that I feel was prefunctory. 

#78
Guest_Paulomedi_*
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 02:54

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GeoFukari wrote...

KotorEffect3 wrote...

Is this another smugboy? No thanks


This one would inquire if Smugboy is still around. Before I returned to these forums, this one had great dislike for that individual.


Just say to him: "enkindle this!":wizard:

#79
Grasich
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 02:54

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He makes some very good points. Some of the people at BioWare still obviously cared about the game (see the Tuchanka mission), but that could REALLY explain the difference in the... polish? epicness? Not sure of a good way to phrase it, but basically the fact that some parts of ME3 are phenomenal and easily on par or even better than ME2, while others... just aren't very well done.

One example could be the difference in how well certain characters were done. Tali, Mordin, Wrex, Garrus, and Liara were all fantastic. Then you have characters like Vega, and even more so, Ashley, that just felt... really half assed.

Anyway, I think he may be right. Some of the devs may have just lost interest in the game, and when that happens... it shows.

#80
CaptainBlackGold
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:00

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Watched the video - thought he could have benefited from writing a script himself, of what he wanted to say to avoid some of the almost embarrassing "Speech 101" errors.

Nevertheless; in all his videos (watched them too) he offers some interesting perspective and there is much with which to agree.

My only real criticism is that whenever someone says something like "they lost their passion" they are going from critique to psycho-analysing - neither he nor us knows what was going on in the development process. We cannot get into peoples' heads like that and it diminishes what are otherwise valid points.

And finally, I do not think he or some of the other posters understand how "writing" in this context works. Usually, the leads develop the plot and then, depending upon personality, give more or less freedom to the writers to develop those plots. However, if the plot point is illogical, incoherent and inconsistent, then no matter how hard they try, the writers just cannot turn a bad idea into a good one.

If the head guys refuse to listen, if they suffer from "hubris" and are not open to correction, then the writers do the best they can with what they have and it usually looks more like a pig's ear than a silk purse.

I am not sure if this applies to the ME3 endings; I wasn't there and I certainly do not know the people involved. But like many others I just do not see the current ending as flowing from the previous games, being reasonable, internally self-consistent or satisfactory. Someone, somewhere made a boo-boo and for some reason, it was either not caught, not analysed or criticized enough.

#81
Reptilian Rob
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:01

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CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Watched the video - thought he could have benefited from writing a script himself, of what he wanted to say to avoid some of the almost embarrassing "Speech 101" errors.

I eagerly await your own video.

Modifié par Reptilian Rob, 25 mars 2012 - 03:02 .

#82
CaptainBlackGold
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:07

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Reptilian Rob wrote...

CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Watched the video - thought he could have benefited from writing a script himself, of what he wanted to say to avoid some of the almost embarrassing "Speech 101" errors.

I eagerly await your own video.


I am not sure my sarcasm detector is working properly so let me take your comment seriously.

I have made numerous videos over the years (back when VHS was the hot new thing) and actually hosted a ten part TV series for a non-profit organization that was broadcast on numerous local TV stations.

Trust me; I've learned the hard way not to work without a script.Posted Image

Modifié par CaptainBlackGold, 25 mars 2012 - 03:09 .

#83
Guest_Paulomedi_*
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:07

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CaptainBlackGold wrote...

Watched the video - thought he could have benefited from writing a script himself, of what he wanted to say to avoid some of the almost embarrassing "Speech 101" errors.

Nevertheless; in all his videos (watched them too) he offers some interesting perspective and there is much with which to agree.

My only real criticism is that whenever someone says something like "they lost their passion" they are going from critique to psycho-analysing - neither he nor us knows what was going on in the development process. We cannot get into peoples' heads like that and it diminishes what are otherwise valid points.

And finally, I do not think he or some of the other posters understand how "writing" in this context works. Usually, the leads develop the plot and then, depending upon personality, give more or less freedom to the writers to develop those plots. However, if the plot point is illogical, incoherent and inconsistent, then no matter how hard they try, the writers just cannot turn a bad idea into a good one.

If the head guys refuse to listen, if they suffer from "hubris" and are not open to correction, then the writers do the best they can with what they have and it usually looks more like a pig's ear than a silk purse.

I am not sure if this applies to the ME3 endings; I wasn't there and I certainly do not know the people involved. But like many others I just do not see the current ending as flowing from the previous games, being reasonable, internally self-consistent or satisfactory. Someone, somewhere made a boo-boo and for some reason, it was either not caught, not analysed or criticized enough.


You see, the "lost passion" line is not just about the endings, but about the feeling of the game itself.

I played ME2 again a bit just to see what was wrong with ME3. And it feels that ME2 is a tight knit job. ME3 has beautiful parts, but as you play they are rarer and rarer and by the end, you get this feeling that "we are rushing this."

#84
humes spork
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:07

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The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh wow, because that isn't proved wrong completely on at least two occasions.


...you got that whole part the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth because they exceeded their original programming and crossed the threshold between virtual and artificial intelligence, right? Not only did the quarians do that, but they also went so far as to wage a civil war against quarians who attempted to defend the geth. Then three centuries later the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth again and forced them into an existential crisis in which they were forced to go to the Reapers or be eliminated.

The only way there's peace is if Shepard jumps through a ton of hoops and ends up shouting the quarians down. Sparing that, somebody ends up straight-up genocided. That doesn't exactly support your notion that organic/synthetic conflict isn't a big deal.

EDI resolves this conflict by rewriting herself to adopt organic reasoning and viewpoints out of loyalty to the Normandy's crew. She changes to avoid conflict, not the converse.

#85
Grasich
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:10

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humes spork wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh wow, because that isn't proved wrong completely on at least two occasions.


...you got that whole part the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth because they exceeded their original programming and crossed the threshold between virtual and artificial intelligence, right? Not only did the quarians do that, but they also went so far as to wage a civil war against quarians who attempted to defend the geth. Then three centuries later the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth again and forced them into an existential crisis in which they were forced to go to the Reapers or be eliminated.

The only way there's peace is if Shepard jumps through a ton of hoops and ends up shouting the quarians down. Sparing that, somebody ends up straight-up genocided. That doesn't exactly support your notion that organic/synthetic conflict isn't a big deal.

EDI resolves this conflict by rewriting herself to adopt organic reasoning and viewpoints out of loyalty to the Normandy's crew. She changes to avoid conflict, not the converse.


It IS a big deal, but it's still a side theme. Humans, Asari, Krogan, Salarians, Batarians, Vorcha, and every other race save the Quarians have never dealt with any major Synthetics vs. Organics war.

So, it fits perfectly as a side theme, but not a main theme.

#86
The Night Mammoth
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:17

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humes spork wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Oh wow, because that isn't proved wrong completely on at least two occasions.


...you got that whole part the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth because they exceeded their original programming and crossed the threshold between virtual and artificial intelligence, right? Not only did the quarians do that, but they also went so far as to wage a civil war against quarians who attempted to defend the geth. Then three centuries later the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth again and forced them into an existential crisis in which they were forced to go to the Reapers or be eliminated.

The only way there's peace is if Shepard jumps through a ton of hoops and ends up shouting the quarians down. Sparing that, somebody ends up straight-up genocided. That doesn't exactly support your notion that organic/synthetic conflict isn't a big deal.


I never said it wasn't a big deal. I said it was a sub-plot that was resolved long before the kid even arrives on the scene, which is true. 

EDI resolves this conflict by rewriting herself to adopt organic reasoning and viewpoints out of loyalty to the Normandy's crew. She changes to avoid conflict, not the converse.


And the Normandy's crew allow and actually encourage her to change. They like EDI, they want her to progress, they don't feel any sort of ownership over her. It disproves the notion that organics will always try to control or destroy sythetics, just like the Geth and Quarian's conflict does.

Even so, EDI's story isn't about organics versus synthetics, it's about EDI becoming more human, transcending something as mundane as her programming to become truly sapient. It poses the notions around whether machines will ever become self aware, or like humans, with emotions. In a way, it does refer to the Catalyst's assertions, except it disproves them as illogical. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 25 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

#87
Guest_Paulomedi_*
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:19

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Any more thoughts on the videos?

Anyone who knows about programming feels this "lack of passion" Anchengeia is talking about?

Modifié par Paulomedi, 25 mars 2012 - 03:19 .

#88
JasonDaPsycho
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:19

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Great video. Sums up how many of us feel towards BioWare at this point.

#89
humes spork
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:23

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Grasich wrote...

It IS a big deal, but it's still a side theme. Humans, Asari, Krogan, Salarians, Batarians, Vorcha, and every other race save the Quarians have never dealt with any major Synthetics vs. Organics war.


Well, the humans got into some serious legal trouble with the Citadel for running illegal AI experimentation. That's elaborated upon in Mass Effect: Revelation. Additionally, in ME1 you had the UNC: Rogue VI assignment where you go and kill the Hannibal AI (which is later salvaged by Cerberus and turned into EDI in case anyone missed it, by the way).

The codex: AI entry also makes it apparent that artificial intelligence was already very strictly regulated prior to the quarians created the geth (part of why the quarians attempted to eradicate the geth, to cover up the fact they'd inadvertently created unauthorized AIs). That implies somebody already messed around with AI (my guess is, the salarians) and got burned, otherwise there'd be no reason to legislate artificial intelligences let alone strictly regulate them. The Council races already know from something that experimenting with AI is playing with fire.

The other races you mention either just aren't advanced, or don't care, to experiment with artificial intelligence. What's a vorcha going to do with a quantum blue box other than try to eat it, for example?

#90
The Night Mammoth
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:24

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No idea about programming, but I thought some parts of the game felt a whole lot more complete than others. The Normandy and the Citadel being two of them.

There are annoying little parts though, like switching back to the Avenger in cutscenes, or the lack of customization in alternative armor sets. I'd use more than just your N7 armor if I could take the helmet off.

#91
ReavousX
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:28

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Paulomedi wrote...

Any more thoughts on the videos?

Anyone who knows about programming feels this "lack of passion" Anchengeia is talking about?


In regards to the lack of passion, it's difficult.  There are obviously moments throughout the game that are among the very best of the trilogy, but after playing through again, yeah, I'm seeing some of the "lack of passion".  Is it REALLY that they lacked passion?  Well, deadlines and rushing to meet them is something that happens often in the gaming industry.  It's all about making money, and at the end of the day, calls get made to maximize profits at the right times.

So, I'd like to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt here, and say that the pressure was probably on to get the game finished on time.  Casey Hudson's "Lots of speculation for everyone." notes leave a lot to be desired in regards to passion though.  When you outright write down things like "like the Matrix", and the desired effect on the player is speculation...yeah, I don't think the finale was a labor of love.  I might be talking out of my arse, from the outside looking in, but I'm drawing conclusions with the material presented.

#92
Grasich
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:30

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Paulomedi wrote...

Any more thoughts on the videos?

Anyone who knows about programming feels this "lack of passion" Anchengeia is talking about?


Comp Sci major. For most of the game, I feel they could have diverged a bit more than they did, but overall it wasn't too bad. Most of the issues were more on the writing and design level. Poor dialogue now and then, lack of dialogue wheel, not as much dialogue with a lot of characters, etc. Also the fact that there was only one central hub was a bit lazy.

The laziness from a programming perspective had to do with the fact that a lot of the story didn't diverge as much as it could have. For example, the Rachni appearing no matter what you do, or Udina being on the councel.

He has some good points in that they really could have made the story more divergent based on your choices in ME1 and ME2 without a TON of extra work. The issue was that they shackled themselves by trying to make it easier for players to jump straight in to ME3 without playing 1 or 2 (a big mistake, in my opinion).

He also said they were shackling themselves because of needing to make further content based on the ME3 savegame posisbly being imported later to another game. As far as that goes, I'm not so sure. The current endings, while very similar in appearance, have some VERY key differences that would make a future game extremely difficult to do.

Having endings where the main differences are who lives and who dies would make it much easier to import into any future games.


He also really seems to be fascinated with Cerberus. Personally, I think some of his ideas there are really cool. I really like to see things like that in games, and far too few do it, or are just lazy about it. It's just my personal preference, but I love games that give you the option to take control of major organizations. I think that was a missed opportunity.

#93
Aesieru
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:32

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I don't watch videos that are just of a guy talking, I need scenes and images and things so I don't develop an opinion of a person's social cues and issues and voice.

#94
darknessmyown
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:33

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keep following the posts in this thread and you see a repeating theme of the whiners and haters being in the minority.... just like the people who say the ending of Mass Effect 3 was just fine, yeah, I went there

#95
Grasich
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:34

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Aesieru wrote...

I don't watch videos that are just of a guy talking, I need scenes and images and things so I don't develop an opinion of a person's social cues and issues and voice.


Why is developing an opinion on the person an issue?

Just watch the video, act like it's someone just talking to you, and enjoy it. ;)

#96
Aesieru
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:35

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Grasich wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I don't watch videos that are just of a guy talking, I need scenes and images and things so I don't develop an opinion of a person's social cues and issues and voice.


Why is developing an opinion on the person an issue?

Just watch the video, act like it's someone just talking to you, and enjoy it. ;)


Developing any opinion on a person I haven't met without significant provocation or reasoning to do so is always a bad thing waiting to happen.

Also, I have no trust in statements of a person I haven't met or developed provocation or reasoning to do so.

Also, I don't like the way he looks.

#97
Grasich
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:38

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Aesieru wrote...


Developing any opinion on a person I haven't met without significant provocation or reasoning to do so is always a bad thing waiting to happen.

Also, I have no trust in statements of a person I haven't met or developed provocation or reasoning to do so.

Also, I don't like the way he looks.


lol ok ok.

I just find enjoyment in hearing other people's thoughts and ideas.

#98
TeamLexana
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:38

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Paulomedi wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

This is sad. See for yourselves.

tl;dr From a programmer-perspective view, Bioware lost the passion to work on Mass Effect; they just didn't care.

The first two videos:

www.youtube.com/watch & www.youtube.com/watch



Wow, he loves to hear himself tak doesn't he? lol

I didn't like the ending either but I wouldn't go as far to say bw didn't care about their game at all. How can anyone even say that? 95% of the was FANTASTIC. It's a great game that did feel like it was made with love... just not that bullcrap wtf ending, lol. The fact that the game right up to the ending is great shouldn't be discounted.

#99
Aesieru
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:40

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Grasich wrote...

Aesieru wrote...


Developing any opinion on a person I haven't met without significant provocation or reasoning to do so is always a bad thing waiting to happen.

Also, I have no trust in statements of a person I haven't met or developed provocation or reasoning to do so.

Also, I don't like the way he looks.


lol ok ok.

I just find enjoyment in hearing other people's thoughts and ideas.


I do too at times, but I prefer not seeing their face when online.

#100
ReavousX
Posté 25 mars 2012 - 03:40

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Aesieru wrote...

Grasich wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

I don't watch videos that are just of a guy talking, I need scenes and images and things so I don't develop an opinion of a person's social cues and issues and voice.


Why is developing an opinion on the person an issue?

Just watch the video, act like it's someone just talking to you, and enjoy it. ;)


Developing any opinion on a person I haven't met without significant provocation or reasoning to do so is always a bad thing waiting to happen.

Also, I have no trust in statements of a person I haven't met or developed provocation or reasoning to do so.

Also, I don't like the way he looks.


Sounds like you live in a very dull box inside the internet. 
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