68 réponses à ce sujet

[Joe_8998]

I absolutely despise this in games, this one included. (Warning: There is a wall of text below. Also, everything I write is about the Xbox version of the game. I have not played it for the PC.) And it seems so needless to omit the information.  For example, the description for Shield Defense states:

"While this mode is active, the character drops into a defensive stance that favors the shield, gaining a bonus to defense and an increased chance to shrug off missile attacks, but taking a penalty to attack. With Shield Balance, the attack penalty is reduced. With Shield Expertise, the defense bonus increases. With Shield Mastery, the defense bonus increases further."

Okay, thats great. I get a defense bonus and a bonus to missile defense. But how MUCH of a bonus?  Is it +5, or +10? Or is it +1, and not worth taking? Also, with Shield Balance, the attack penalty is reduced. Again, thats great. But how much was the penalty to begin with? And how much is is reduced by? This information can be found in the Dragon Age wiki (it gives a +5 bonus to defense, and the attack penalty is actually negated entirely with Mastery), but I shouldn't have to search the internet for informaton that should be given in the game. Why should I have to wait for someone to rip the code out of the game to know all the numbers? 

This is a problem across the whole game. The Spells are especially guilty of this. Look at Arcane Bolt or Flame Blast. They deal "moderate spirit damage" or "fire damage" respectively. Well, how much? And we now that Spellpower helps make the spells stronger. But how much stronger? How does a point of Magic/Sellpower affect the casting? Again, looking at the Dragon Age wiki, you can find the formulas for those spells, and how they are helped by spellpower. Arcane Bolt's damage:  (100.0 + Spellpower) * .3, Flame Blast:   (100.0 + Spellpower) * .45. But still, why can't we get this info in the game? And not all the relevant numbers have been found, so for some of the talents you are flying blind. 

Also, some abilities have completely inaccurate or fallacious descriptions compared to the numbers ripped from the game. The Champion's Rally talent for example. The description: The champion’s presence inspires nearby allies, giving them bonuses to attack and defense while this mode is active....

However, looking at the wiki, it tells you that this talent does not actually give any bonus to attack. Why can't Bioware simply tell us these things, and other numbers? I feel like I am somewhat lost in combat and in selecting my talents, because I have a general idea of what they do, but not a definitive, set number as to how they help me. I would also like to know the calculation for how attacking and damage works. This was given in Knights of the Old Republic, it tells you that the attack score plus a random number from 1 to 20 must exceed the defense score plus armor, etc. Why not give us all this info for Dragon Age? Seriously?

Also, unlike in Knights of the Old Republic, I can't go into the Dialog/Feedback section and view the calculations for each attack in combat, to know how much each trait, ability, armor piece, etc. is helping. It even gets worse. The Disorient spell, for example? Yeah, it does absolutely nothing. Seriously, look it up. Its bugged. Obviously, a simple oversight, but if we could see a menu like the one in KOTOR, I would have been able to see this on my own.

Thoughts? Opinions? Insults?

[Zealuu]

I completely agree, and this continues to frustrate me in many games.

[Staylost]

Totally agree. Bioware is being a sheep not putting this easy stuff in.

[Riddley313]

They used to list all relevant information in the older CRPGs. Sadly, this isn't the case anymore. Another byproduct of 'streamlined' gameplay it seems. I can understand the lack of a combat log, but some sort of tooltip information about specific skills and spells would certainly be useful.

[iounas]

I agree.. Hopefully somebody will make a mod with extended descriptions if there isnt one already..

[Ismelda]

Well if you were a practitioner of magic you wouldn't know the exact damages you do with your spell either. It is not because we are in a computer world were all is number that the medial times and even more the medieval fantastic universes revolve around numbers. The calculations are just indicators but not definite. Plus you can guess that each time you level up your spell become a bit more powerful that it was on your former level if it has to still have some effect on your adversaries. So the calculation is done comparing the level you are, the level of the creature you are fighting the the power of the spell itself. The numbers would change on each level and will be different for each adversaries.



I don't feel any need to know the exact numbers. Each and every spell/power has its utility depending on the situation. Of course some of them are just good all the time unless the creature is immune to it and some only good in some rare instances or when combined with some other effects. It is our job to discover the magic effects and their application and shouldn't be given with raw numbers...

[fro7k]

It is held by developers that figuring things out for yourself is fun. On the other hand, too much obfuscation is not, and it depends on _what_ you are having to figure out. Baldur's Gate had all the numbers available and it never hurt it any.

[iounas]

fro7k wrote...

It is held by developers that figuring things out for yourself is fun. On the other hand, too much obfuscation is not, and it depends on _what_ you are having to figure out. Baldur's Gate had all the numbers available and it never hurt it any.

Its not fun if you get a spell that is not as good as description says

[Ismelda]

Does not having the numbers hurt anything?

[Taleroth]

Mechanics of abilities are usually in flux for a significant period of time after the text strings are locked in during the course of development.

[Elanareon]

Well im not really pissed off about it but... I think they should at least put it in the missing manual for you guys.

[mmu1]

Ismelda wrote...

Does not having the numbers hurt anything?

Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

If you care about getting stuck with worthless abilities, or ones that don't do what you expected them to, then yeah, it sure as hell "hurts" things.

It also "hurts" things if you're the kind of player who likes to plan ahead, instead of finding out how the "tactical" combat works by pure trial and error.

[MikeWiz]

Ismelda wrote...

Does not having the numbers hurt anything?

Why have numbers of damage float away from an enemy target?  Why show their health?

It's informative and helps in deciding what talents to take.  Many RPGers love to see numbers.  Me included.

[Ismelda]

mmu1 wrote...

Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

If you care about getting stuck with worthless abilities, or ones that don't do what you expected them to, then yeah, it sure as hell "hurts" things.

It also "hurts" things if you're the kind of player who likes to plan ahead, instead of finding out how the "tactical" combat works by pure trial and error.

I don't think that there is any worthless ability and i didn't found any that didn't do what I was expection from the description... Tactics is always based on trial and error. When I did restart my character I found some bosses very easy compared to the first time because I knew what to expect and what do do with everyone ability to counter the boss moves. Of course that also goes in your sense but still I didn't need the stats to expect the effect from the abilities I used. Just the description was enough to assess what was going to be the most effective.

MikeWiz wrote...

Why have numbers of damage float away from an enemy target?  Why show their health?

It's informative and helps in deciding what talents to take.  Many RPGers love to see numbers.  Me included.

Because it is a game... People like to see the damages they are doing. But there is an option to remove that I think for better immersion.

Modifié par Ismelda, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:27 .

[kalniel]

Taleroth wrote...

Mechanics of abilities are usually in flux for a significant period of time after the text strings are locked in during the course of development.

This.

Plus tweaks in patches etc. A manual would be out of date and inaccurate, causing more issues than it's worth.

Frankly I don't even know why they define spell power as magic -10 - just say it's based on magic and don't give a number!

[Bluesmith]

Hopefully a module that updates tooltips is released at some point. Not giving us the exact effects of a spell is annoying (damage, duration, etc.); outright lying to us is ridiculous (see, e.g., the tooltip for Rally).

Taleroth wrote...

Mechanics of abilities are usually in flux for a significant period of time after the text strings are locked in during the course of development.

This is why one designs their tooltips to draw content from variables, rather than predefined and therefore static text.

As it stands, I'm constantly in the toolset trying to figure out what these abilities actually do. It's not hard, but it is dumb that I need to do things like this.

Modifié par Bluesmith, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:31 .

[Statue]

In another thread on the topic, a dev stated they intended to have specific numbers and percentiles in those descriptions, but due to a scheduling error concerning localizations they went past their window of opportunity to put them in.

So we have the vague inaccurate ones instead - but hey, they are equally vague and inaccurate in *all* languages!


In terms of them fixing it any time, the same dev in the same thread said it was unlikely as it would be too costly.

I'm not pleased with it either. It makes for some bizarre hoopjumping workarounds to get the information.


BTW the thread I'm referring to is either
http://social.biowar.../9/index/245995
or
http://social.biowar.../9/index/232401


As for the question in this thread title, I'd say they generally *do* give that information (all other Bioware CRPGs for example), and DAO is one of a minority that doesn't (and doesn't give it due to a development schedule error rather than a deliberate design choice).

Modifié par Statue, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:30 .

[Jordi B]

I would like the numbers, because I like to carefully design my character. However, if the descriptions are correct and no skills would really be bad, then I don't think games should have to give us the numbers. Also, imagine that after lots of QA and balance testing BioWare decided that the formula for Arcane Missile should be something crazy like:

exp(your level) / pi^(enemy level) * log(pi*spellpower/resistance)

Then I can really imagine that they wouldn't put that in the description and instead they would just say that it does little/moderate damage that significantly increases with level and spellpower (or something).

[Blue_dodo]

it is frustrating, one great example of where calculations would help is (the much hated) shapeshifter form.

example:The shapeshifter can transform into a bear,
gaining large bonuses to nature resistance and armor as well as the
bear's Slam and Rage abilities. The caster's spellpower further
enhances this bear's statistics and abilities. With Master
Shapeshifter, this form transforms the caster into a powerful bereskarn
and gains the Overwhelm ability.

the description fails to add that the form adds only the attribute bonus (modified by spell power) from the form and nothing else meaning that you actually have invest points into your other states to be  make the ability more effective, this could be one of the reasions why so many people see shapeshifter as useless.

by the way more info on what I have found out about this specialization can be read here:social.bioware.com/27970/blog/1185 (I am still working on it )

[Statue]

Jordi B wrote...

I would like the numbers, because I like to carefully design my character. However, if the descriptions are correct and no skills would really be bad, then I don't think games should have to give us the numbers. Also, imagine that after lots of QA and balance testing BioWare decided that the formula for Arcane Missile should be something crazy like:

exp(your level) / pi^(enemy level) * log(pi*spellpower/resistance)

Then I can really imagine that they wouldn't put that in the description and instead they would just say that it does little/moderate damage that significantly increases with level and spellpower (or something).

Or they could simply put the base damage in the description. However complicated the final damage calculation formula used is under the hood, there's no excuse for not giving some basics up front for comparison purposes - apart from there is an excuse, but it's not the one you're suggesting it might be. It was a scheduling error.

Modifié par Statue, 01 décembre 2009 - 05:46 .

[Rayne Myria Solo]

Georg Zoeller specifically said he would NOT post numbers for this game, as he doesn't believe in doing it, especially for the battle systems etc. He did post a few in the old dexterity fix thread, and as he did it he said he was loathe to do so. However, he also maintains the Missing Manual site, where a lot of the crunchy bits are available, as he also likes the old style geeky thick manuals RPGs used to have, and I gather a lot of that will be there (for example shield defense's numbers are there, IIRC). It's also not that hard to turn shield defense on yourself, and see how much it is (IIRC it's 5-10 points). Duelist for example, with Keen Defense is 10 points defense, 10 points attack. What those "points" mean, no one knows, except the designers, and people who poke in the toolset, there's a toolset wiki that I believe shows the calculations, that's probably what you want to do if you care that much. Personally, I restrict that stuff for tabletops (and even they're going away from it) and like to not worry as much in my games.

[krim80]

Must agree it is something that must be even more annoying to new RP players. I always felt like this is one thing that need improvment.

[Statue]

Rayne Myria Solo wrote...
Georg Zoeller specifically said he would NOT post numbers for this game, as he doesn't believe in doing it.

It's not that he didn't believe in doing it. The opposite is the case. He not only believes in the numbers being there, but would have *loved* them to be there. Example of one of multiple quotes where he states he wanted to have the numbers in the descriptions:

Georg Zoeller wrote...
I would have loved to ship talent and spell descriptions with detailed
numbers, but due to the localization schedule, that was not possible.

from http://social.biowar...245995/3#246992

Modifié par Statue, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:04 .

[Zealuu]

I can't imagine any major RPG geeks not wanting to have the numbers around. Particularly in a game like DA:O - one of the few titles that have not been specifically tailored to be easily understood and beaten by the lowest common denominator of the gamer demographic - the issue of time-constraints seems a much more likely explanation.

Ah, yes, the above post seems to have substantiated that with a quote and everything.

Modifié par Zealuu, 01 décembre 2009 - 06:11 .

[Aidunno]

Number crunching or gameplay/immersion.. know which one I would prefer. All the numbers and "how to beat the game" are probably already out there or soon will be if not. Who cares if your character missed by 1pt or 100. A miss is as good as a mile.