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Morinth's Cameo


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#51
Balmung31

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Orthodox Infidel wrote...

jreezy wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Did you know that there is a Phantom named Jack at the Cerberus HQ if you don't rescue Jack at Grissom Academy? I'm guessing that before the Omega mission got scrapped for DLC, there was a part on that station where you could save her too. Hopefully they will change it so you can save her when that DLC comes out. Best LI in the game TBH.

Jack gets the same treatment? Wow that sucks.


Only if you don't do the Grissom Academy mission in time. So it's a failure state. Jack's role is much larger than Morinth's. Also, if you sold Legion to the Illusive Man, you face him in the same place as Jack.


Interesting. 

What about Grunt if you don't wake him? 

#52
poundoffleshaa

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Goneaviking wrote...

MjK wrote...

Morinth is a great character... Ardat-Yakshi are forced to live into a monastery or die... That's pretty harsh especially when you are a young (teen?) asari who planned something your futur.

"Hey sweetie, it seems you have a genetic failure, you'll kill every sexual partners you'll have.
Die or play chess for a millenia ?"

D:

She's not a serial killer on purpose


Yes she is. Having a tragic backstory and a lethal STD does not negate free will. Nor does addiction. Morinth made her choices, and she chose to be a sexual predator.



Personally I think Addiction does nullify free will she never made a choice to take her particular drug it was all the fault of her genetics killing for her was as natural as eating for us. She is a natural sexual predator rather than someone who chooses to be one. (aka the difference between a man eating tiger and a murder).  

#53
naufrago1984

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She killed for pleasure addicted or not and i would have loved to kill her myself (Instead of letting Samara do it)

Modifié par naufrago1984, 25 mars 2012 - 01:35 .


#54
Soga_Iname

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naufrago1984 wrote...

She killed for pleasure...

...i would have loved to kill her myself


There's irony there somewhere. I know it.

#55
cognosco sapiens

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poundoffleshaa wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

MjK wrote...

Morinth is a great character... Ardat-Yakshi are forced to live into a monastery or die... That's pretty harsh especially when you are a young (teen?) asari who planned something your futur.

"Hey sweetie, it seems you have a genetic failure, you'll kill every sexual partners you'll have.
Die or play chess for a millenia ?"

D:

She's not a serial killer on purpose


Yes she is. Having a tragic backstory and a lethal STD does not negate free will. Nor does addiction. Morinth made her choices, and she chose to be a sexual predator.



Personally I think Addiction does nullify free will she never made a choice to take her particular drug it was all the fault of her genetics killing for her was as natural as eating for us. She is a natural sexual predator rather than someone who chooses to be one. (aka the difference between a man eating tiger and a murder).  


Well pound thet very argument is the basis for why the Ardat-Yakshi are given the treatment that they are given in the ME universe. Following your train of thought, a man eathing tiger is a danger to everyone it encounters and is thus not allowed to roam freely in any given area where we have people. They are either caged or killed...period.
This is the same manner that we also treat serial killers.

On the other hand, if she has the logical capacity to resist her cravings; then her actions are abhorent and should be dealt with accordingly. Namely, imprisonment  or death. No matter how you look at the situation she simply can't be allowed to roam freely. Either she is a creature to be pitied or a monster to be destroyed, but you actions on the matter are not changed any as a result as the result cannot be morally justified in either case.

Now on to the character of Samara. While I do find some of the implications of the code she holds to be disturbing, her character cannot be argued to be immoral. In fact, it is the strict code of ethics and morals that she follows that motivate her actions. I see someone using the argument that maybe the person Nihlus killed was a bad person. This can't be used as an argument because we lack the information to discern the nature of the situation. By that logic I could easily say that maybe he was an innocent man and it changes nothing. Samara reacted appropriately so the situation as she saw fit. Her reaction is actually about the same as todays law enforcement agencies would do if they witnessed a similar senario.

I think that what people tend to dislike about her character is that Samara's code is completely black and white. In a game where morally gray is the standard it does seem to stick out. However, she is no more of a monster than Thane is, and arguably less so. Both of them kill dispassionately in their line of work with no feelings of remorse. However, Thane's outlook is justified by saying "It was the body that did it, not me." This is a far more reckless attitude to take, and also patently wrong because ones body cannot react to a majority of stimuli without thier mind consciously telling it to. Samara never actually tries to wash her hands of the people she has killed. She takes responsitility for her actions and in some cases even expresses remorse for those dead. However, this does not stop her from doing her duty when the time comes.

#56
MaximusRex

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bobobo878 wrote...
Morinth and Samara are bother murderers, but at least Morinth is honest with herself about what she does. Morinth may not have a religious code to justify killing Nef, but that does not make this act any more monsterous than the murders Samara commits. If Shepard hadn't come to her rescue, Samara would have murdered that cop on Illium just for doing her job.


Justicars represent an Asari Legal Code.  There are differences from our code, but there are similarities as well.  Justicars are given absolute authority, and the Asari know that.  Despite this, the cop on Illium was ordered by her Asari bosses to interfere, knowing full well the dangers.  Samara could ahve killed the Cop right away, but decided to be flexible due to Shepards help.  Basically, you are decideing that because it doesn't conform to your standards that Asari justice is amoral.

Samara said she saw him kill an unarmed civilian, but she didn't bother to stop and ask him why she killed that person. Being a Spectre, Nihilus could have had a very good reason for killing that person. The person Nihlus killed could have been a spy, who would have put people in danger with the information he would have sent if Nihlus had killed him later. Or, he could have been a terrorist, bearing a concealed weapon of mass destruction that Samara did not see. But Samara herself said that she did not know why Nihlus killed him.


Murder is murder, Specters are outside of the Asari Justicar system, remember, Justicars almost never leave Asari space, most likely to avoid these strange legal overlaps.

When Samara said that she didn't need to know why she was helping you eradicate the collectors, saying "If I have to kill a man, do I need to know he's a loving father?" it revealed a deeply disturbing facet of her character. Samara simply does not care to know if what she does is wrong. After she discovered that her daughters were ardat-yakshi she ceased to trust in her own judgement, and being too afraid to make her own choices anymore, she lets her code think for her. For all she knew, Nihlus could have just saved more lives than she ever will, but that doesn't matter to her because allowing her code to think for her saves her from having to make hard choices.


Blind Justice is a basic premise of the American legal system, yet you seem to think when its a one woman show that is all of a sudden deeply disturbing.  Who cares if a serial killer is nice to his kids, that doesn't make serial killing ok.  Samara is correct, in a blind justice system it doesn't matter if someone who's crimes require the death penalty is a loving father, its immeterial.

I'm not saying it's okay for Morinth to commit serial murder against hipsters on Omega, but Samara is a trigger happy zealot meddling in galactic security affairs that she simply does not care to understand. At least when Morinth murders in cold blood, she put galactic security at risk.


Samara is actually a lot like Judge Dread, a legal system rolled into one person.  While it might not appeal to modern western sensibilties, that hardly makes her a trigger happy zealot.  She only acts when a crime has occured, outside political motivations don't mean much to her, but then again, how much do they mean to western legal systems?

Morinth on the other hand literally kills only for pleasure, and dosen't ever care.

Your basic argument is that laws don't apply if they are broken for the right reason, and since Samara adhears to blind justice, she's somehow a bad person.  And who is arbitor of the "right reason"?  You?  I hope not, because you already have stated that being a loving father is a mitigiating circumstance for a crime serious enough to require a death penalty.

Shepard is a soilder, he gets to make moral decisions. Samara is a justice system, she can only make legal ones, and even at that she was willing to "ignore" that duty by being willing to kill herself to save her daughter.

#57
Zix13

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 Does anyone else feel like she would be the last person to get huskified? She's cunning, resourceful, heartless and a powerful biotic. She would sacrifice a planet to save her skin. Doesn't seem likely to me that the reapers would be able to hunt her down in such a short time, if ever. Would have thought Samara would be more likely to end up as a banshee than Morinth.

Modifié par Zix13, 25 mars 2012 - 02:49 .


#58
Orthodox Infidel

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Balmung31 wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

jreezy wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Did you know that there is a Phantom named Jack at the Cerberus HQ if you don't rescue Jack at Grissom Academy? I'm guessing that before the Omega mission got scrapped for DLC, there was a part on that station where you could save her too. Hopefully they will change it so you can save her when that DLC comes out. Best LI in the game TBH.

Jack gets the same treatment? Wow that sucks.


Only if you don't do the Grissom Academy mission in time. So it's a failure state. Jack's role is much larger than Morinth's. Also, if you sold Legion to the Illusive Man, you face him in the same place as Jack.


Interesting. 

What about Grunt if you don't wake him? 


I don't actually know. I think the default character backstory assumes you didn't wake Grunt; at least I didn't see him during the fake-Rachni queen mission. I'll double check the memorial wall for his name and see if he appears during the Cerberus base sequence.

#59
Priisus

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I heard from other thread that Grunt got replaced by some generic Krogan who got killed at the end of the mission anyway.

I love Samara but I recruited Morinth once just to unlock Dominate then reload the save... but I am disappointed to hear about her ME3 cameo. She could fit in the Ardat Yakshi monastery mission too, as psycho as she is, I'm pretty sure she still loves her sisters... and then got turned to a Banshee in that mission won't be that bad tot he plot. Guess her VA is too costly huh...

#60
The Angry One

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Zix13 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

More than she deserved, really.


Bro, she tried to save you from the ending. She's like marauder shields, but years ahead of her time.



Image IPB

#61
Quietness

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The Angry One wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

More than she deserved, really.


Bro, she tried to save you from the ending. She's like marauder shields, but years ahead of her time.



Image IPB


Relevant : 

 

#62
The Angry One

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Quietness wrote...

Relevant : 

 


How can you deny the artfulness and meaningfulness of the secret purple ending?

#63
sangy

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As much as I wanted to use squadmates from previous ME games, it was nice to at least have cameos of almost every single squadmate you've had and even Normandy staff too. I am currently trying to get Morinth as a squadmate in ME2, just for fun. I really like Samara so I'm definately going to feel guilty, but this character is going the Renegade route.

I like seeing all cutscenes and scenarios ME has to offer. I'm horrible at getting full Paragon or Renegade. It's not hard physically, but mentally, to be a boyscout or a total arse. I'm good at neutral.

#64
Quietness

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The Angry One wrote...

Quietness wrote...

Relevant : 

 


How can you deny the artfulness and meaningfulness of the secret purple ending?


still a better ending... 

Anyways i still think despite this Morinth's is still the second worst Cameo in game. At least she wasnt a valid LI who cheated on you with a b****y Fem Hawke and than snubs you.

#65
iamthedave3

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Given the e-mails Morinth tried to sent her sisters, and the fact she lies about Samara's death to comfort them, I think she's being slightly misconstrued.

Evil space vampire, yes.

Completely heartless? No.

At the very least, it is perfectly conceivable that she would be at the monastery, even if just to save her sisters so she'll have herself a little vampy circle to go pillage the galaxy with. And it would have made for a rather interesting 'branch' for the plotline. At the end, you can let Morinth leave with Falere, or kill them both. Whereas if Samara is alive... well, she sticks around.

There's no argument on the grounds of 'what did you expect'. Morinth's evaded capture for centuries and knows how to stay alive. I'd expect her to avoid the reapers for a very long time indeed.

#66
Zix13

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The Angry One wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

More than she deserved, really.


Bro, she tried to save you from the ending. She's like marauder shields, but years ahead of her time.



Image IPB


Yes. At least you get a hot piece of ass for dying and dooming the galaxy.

Modifié par Zix13, 25 mars 2012 - 04:29 .


#67
Mr Tigglyfeef

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I thought Samara said that there were only two Arad-Yakshi in existance, and one lived in a Monestary and the other was Morinth, both her daughters.

...then it turns out there's more of them.

If i've just imagined that, someone please say, 'cos it peed me off that, that lore was overwrote.

#68
Red Dust

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bobobo878 wrote...

Morinth and Samara are bother murderers, but at least Morinth is honest with herself about what she does. Morinth may not have a religious code to justify killing Nef, but that does not make this act any more monsterous than the murders Samara commits. If Shepard hadn't come to her rescue, Samara would have murdered that cop on Illium just for doing her job.

Samara said she saw him kill an unarmed civilian, but she didn't bother to stop and ask him why she killed that person. Being a Spectre, Nihilus could have had a very good reason for killing that person. The person Nihlus killed could have been a spy, who would have put people in danger with the information he would have sent if Nihlus had killed him later. Or, he could have been a terrorist, bearing a concealed weapon of mass destruction that Samara did not see. But Samara herself said that she did not know why Nihlus killed him.

When Samara said that she didn't need to know why she was helping you eradicate the collectors, saying "If I have to kill a man, do I need to know he's a loving father?" it revealed a deeply disturbing facet of her character. Samara simply does not care to know if what she does is wrong. After she discovered that her daughters were ardat-yakshi she ceased to trust in her own judgement, and being too afraid to make her own choices anymore, she lets her code think for her. For all she knew, Nihlus could have just saved more lives than she ever will, but that doesn't matter to her because allowing her code to think for her saves her from having to make hard choices.

I'm not saying it's okay for Morinth to commit serial murder against hipsters on Omega, but Samara is a trigger happy zealot meddling in galactic security affairs that she simply does not care to understand. At least when Morinth murders in cold blood, she put galactic security at risk.


I agree, Samara's awesome.

But on the other hand, Morinth is the space-hipster's only natural predator. If you kill her, they'll breed unchecked and eat all the grass! And starve!

No naturally, in the name of purging hipsters, Morinth must die. 

Modifié par Red Dust, 25 mars 2012 - 04:46 .


#69
LBXZero

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Mr Tigglyfeef wrote...

I thought Samara said that there were only two Arad-Yakshi in existance, and one lived in a Monestary and the other was Morinth, both her daughters.

...then it turns out there's more of them.

If i've just imagined that, someone please say, 'cos it peed me off that, that lore was overwrote.


Samara had 3 daughters, Morinth and the 2 you meet in the monastery.  They actually were not the only ones, as the monastery was probably operated by a few Ardat-Yakshi.  Banshees are only made from Ardats, and not regular Asari.

#70
Mr Tigglyfeef

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Yeh, that's what i thought. But i'm sure Samara said her daughters were the only Ardat's in the whole of existance. ...though i could be wrong. I'll probably find out when i play them all back to back in a few years.

It annoyed me really that Morinth didn't really get a bigger role.

I remember reading an interview an age ago before ME3 was released were one of the guys on it said something along the lines of "We don't want people to think they need to get the best ending to progress with the story." and said that they'd want people to feel like they're getting something fresh even if their characters died, and not just replacements.

From what i've gathered, if all of your characters died that's exactly what you get. Replacements. Joker even nods to it with the 'nod-Mordin' joke.

Also, i think Bioware should've done something DIFFERENT if your Shepard died. Like just shown Earth falling and the Reapers winning from the outset, instead of saying "...he died? Your...YOUR SHEPARD died?! Eeesh...here, create a new one, we'll forget about the death thing!"

It'd've been a nice twist to see a few brief scenes of the galaxy falling, and maybe even a mention of his death.

#71
Red Dust

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LBXZero wrote...

Mr Tigglyfeef wrote...

I thought Samara said that there were only two Arad-Yakshi in existance, and one lived in a Monestary and the other was Morinth, both her daughters.

...then it turns out there's more of them.

If i've just imagined that, someone please say, 'cos it peed me off that, that lore was overwrote.


Samara had 3 daughters, Morinth and the 2 you meet in the monastery.  They actually were not the only ones, as the monastery was probably operated by a few Ardat-Yakshi.  Banshees are only made from Ardats, and not regular Asari.


Banshees are made of anyone who carries the genetic code of Ardat Yakshe, expressed or otherwise. Samara, for example, could be turned into a banshee. 

#72
I_Jedi

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Mr Tigglyfeef wrote...

Yeh, that's what i thought. But i'm sure Samara said her daughters were the only Ardat's in the whole of existance. ...though i could be wrong. I'll probably find out when i play them all back to back in a few years.

It annoyed me really that Morinth didn't really get a bigger role.

I remember reading an interview an age ago before ME3 was released were one of the guys on it said something along the lines of "We don't want people to think they need to get the best ending to progress with the story." and said that they'd want people to feel like they're getting something fresh even if their characters died, and not just replacements.

From what i've gathered, if all of your characters died that's exactly what you get. Replacements. Joker even nods to it with the 'nod-Mordin' joke.

Also, i think Bioware should've done something DIFFERENT if your Shepard died. Like just shown Earth falling and the Reapers winning from the outset, instead of saying "...he died? Your...YOUR SHEPARD died?! Eeesh...here, create a new one, we'll forget about the death thing!"

It'd've been a nice twist to see a few brief scenes of the galaxy falling, and maybe even a mention of his death.


I support a replacement Commander Shepard who isn't a new Commander Shepard.

#73
Mr Tigglyfeef

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"I support a replacement Commander Shepard who isn't a new Commander Shepard."

I don't think that could work. ...it'd be like when you're watching a TV series and all of a sudden the main character's actor is switched.

The people who played the ending to die, obviously just wanted to die and it wasn't their proper playthrough...so why not just give them an extra something? A little scene just to say "Well done, you're a douché."

#74
I_Jedi

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Mr Tigglyfeef wrote...

"I support a replacement Commander Shepard who isn't a new Commander Shepard."

I don't think that could work. ...it'd be like when you're watching a TV series and all of a sudden the main character's actor is switched.

The people who played the ending to die, obviously just wanted to die and it wasn't their proper playthrough...so why not just give them an extra something? A little scene just to say "Well done, you're a douché."


So...you don't support Commander Joker's fight against the Reapers?

#75
Red Dust

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I_Jedi wrote...

Mr Tigglyfeef wrote...

"I support a replacement Commander Shepard who isn't a new Commander Shepard."

I don't think that could work. ...it'd be like when you're watching a TV series and all of a sudden the main character's actor is switched.

The people who played the ending to die, obviously just wanted to die and it wasn't their proper playthrough...so why not just give them an extra something? A little scene just to say "Well done, you're a douché."


So...you don't support Commander Joker's fight against the Reapers?


Commander Joker would have one tricked out wheel-chair.