194 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr Tigglyfeef]

"So...you don't support Commander Joker's fight against the Reapers?"

Paha!

I doubt he'd last long...there's only so much sarcasm a warring race of aliens can take before they snap.

[Tibbur]

jojimbo wrote...

Morinth isn't really a serial killer, she is a sex addict that leaves baggage, it really isn't her fault and should be (if ever caught) tried for diminished responsibility. Was handled badly in ME3, dont see why they could swap out samara liek they did in Me2,she could have held off the mutants instead of her sister, gloriously sacrificing herself to admonish her crimes.
also, if shep has say 3000ems, would have been good to survive actually "doing it"

Mornith tried that in Me2 was a good way for shep to die

[Fisto The Sexbot]

Simpfan wrote...

Nothing like purposefully saving a raving lunatic who goes around mind****ing people to death out of some ****ed up philosophy of being the "genetic destiny of the asari"

give me a break, shes coocoo bananas and good riddance

oh yeah, a stark contrast to Shepard's otherwise strongly mentally stable team.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

bobobo878 wrote...

Lmaoboat wrote...
Nope.

Morinth and Samara are bother murderers, but at least Morinth is honest with herself about what she does. Morinth may not have a religious code to justify killing Nef, but that does not make this act any more monsterous than the murders Samara commits. If Shepard hadn't come to her rescue, Samara would have murdered that cop on Illium just for doing her job.

Samara said she saw him kill an unarmed civilian, but she didn't bother to stop and ask him why she killed that person. Being a Spectre, Nihilus could have had a very good reason for killing that person. The person Nihlus killed could have been a spy, who would have put people in danger with the information he would have sent if Nihlus had killed him later. Or, he could have been a terrorist, bearing a concealed weapon of mass destruction that Samara did not see. But Samara herself said that she did not know why Nihlus killed him.

When Samara said that she didn't need to know why she was helping you eradicate the collectors, saying "If I have to kill a man, do I need to know he's a loving father?" it revealed a deeply disturbing facet of her character. Samara simply does not care to know if what she does is wrong. After she discovered that her daughters were ardat-yakshi she ceased to trust in her own judgement, and being too afraid to make her own choices anymore, she lets her code think for her. For all she knew, Nihlus could have just saved more lives than she ever will, but that doesn't matter to her because allowing her code to think for her saves her from having to make hard choices.

I'm not saying it's okay for Morinth to commit serial murder against hipsters on Omega, but Samara is a trigger happy zealot meddling in galactic security affairs that she simply does not care to understand. At least when Morinth murders in cold blood, she put galactic security at risk.

pretty much. I saved Samara but well, birds of a feather and all that. I don't think she doesn't care though. More like she prefers not to know (doesn't make it much better though).

I oscilated between disliking Samara because of her commitment to an absurd code to liking her for her personality underneath.

wow that sounded corny.

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 25 mars 2012 - 05:31 .

[Zix13]

Fisto The Sexbot wrote...

Simpfan wrote...

Nothing like purposefully saving a raving lunatic who goes around mind****ing people to death out of some ****ed up philosophy of being the "genetic destiny of the asari"

give me a break, shes coocoo bananas and good riddance

oh yeah, a stark contrast to Shepard's otherwise strongly mentally stable team.

Lol.

[zapkeet]

seriously? seriously?! People are defending Morinth?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think both her and Samara have questionable morals, but Morinth was a serial killer. "but it's not her fault she kills everyone" yes it is, she could have just stayed at the monastery and live comfortably, and THEN she could have even be implemented back into society as we see happens in some cases

[Zix13]

zapkeet wrote...

seriously? seriously?! People are defending Morinth?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think both her and Samara have questionable morals, but Morinth was a serial killer. "but it's not her fault she kills everyone" yes it is, she could have just stayed at the monastery and live comfortably, and THEN she could have even be implemented back into society as we see happens in some cases

But she kills hipsters. That's a good thing. She also tried to save you from the ending.

[Humakt83]

zapkeet wrote...

seriously? seriously?! People are defending Morinth?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think both her and Samara have questionable morals, but Morinth was a serial killer. "but it's not her fault she kills everyone" yes it is, she could have just stayed at the monastery and live comfortably, and THEN she could have even be implemented back into society as we see happens in some cases

It is the very degradation of the morality at work in the world we currently live.

[Goneaviking]

poundoffleshaa wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

MjK wrote...

Morinth is a great character... Ardat-Yakshi are forced to live into a monastery or die... That's pretty harsh especially when you are a young (teen?) asari who planned something your futur.

"Hey sweetie, it seems you have a genetic failure, you'll kill every sexual partners you'll have.
Die or play chess for a millenia ?"

D:

She's not a serial killer on purpose. 

Yes she is. Having a tragic backstory and a lethal STD does not negate free will. Nor does addiction. Morinth made her choices, and she chose to be a sexual predator.

Personally I think Addiction does nullify free will she never made a choice to take her particular drug it was all the fault of her genetics killing for her was as natural as eating for us. She is a natural sexual predator rather than someone who chooses to be one. (aka the difference between a man eating tiger and a murder).  

The world is full of people who overcome addiction. It may not be easy, but Morinth showed no signs of having ever tried.

Other points to consider in judging her: 
* It's never stated that she discovered she was an ardat-yakshi by killing someone inadvertently. Given her young age at the time she runs away from home it's actually unlikely that that was how she made the realization. I expect that at least some of the inmates at the monastry found out the hard way, and were apparently able to reign in their behaviour so as to not kill anyone.
* She's able to control herself while she's on the Normandy for (apparently) months without seducing and killing anyone. Despite having free run of the ship, and no one knowing what she is (or what that implies). Apparently she is able to control herself if she thinks she has to.

Concerning the argument that she's a natural sexual predator and has no choice in it. That doesn't mean it's okay to let her run around killing at will, as for the example you included: we kill tigers (or any animal) if we believe they've developed a taste for human flesh.

[Phyzzix]

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

That would just make it a decision that has no consequence going into ME3 then if either character leads to the same outcome. Honestly it's pretty fitting in my opinion. You keep an Ardat-Yakshi alive, and at the monastery they tell you that they're turning Ardat-Yakshi into Banshees. Like what more can you really expect to be the outcome of this situation.

[AllergevKev]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

Morinth is a total psychopath. Why would she risk herself to save her sisters?

There's in email in game that proves what you just said completely wrong.

I don't see why she couldn't have replaced Samara at the monestary. I chose Morinth simply because I though Samara was a really boring character, but that's just me.

[Zix13]

Phyzzix wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

That would just make it a decision that has no consequence going into ME3 then if either character leads to the same outcome. Honestly it's pretty fitting in my opinion. You keep an Ardat-Yakshi alive, and at the monastery they tell you that they're turning Ardat-Yakshi into Banshees. Like what more can you really expect to be the outcome of this situation.

Disagree. Samara has the latent Ardat-Yakshi gene, so she could be turned into a Banshee. Frankly, Morinth is smarter and more resourceful than Samara. Self-Preservation is Morinths way of life. She should have been the last one you'd expect to see turn up as a banshee.

[BatmanPWNS]

Zix13 wrote...

zapkeet wrote...

seriously? seriously?! People are defending Morinth?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I think both her and Samara have questionable morals, but Morinth was a serial killer. "but it's not her fault she kills everyone" yes it is, she could have just stayed at the monastery and live comfortably, and THEN she could have even be implemented back into society as we see happens in some cases

But she kills hipsters. That's a good thing. She also tried to save you from the ending.

Morinth has now been redeemed.

[gosimmons]

Shame she didn't get more screentime than that.

Though I still think the whole Morinth conflict could have been a lot more developed if she hadn't been hunted for being a serial killer so much as for not wanting to be locked up in the monastery. The blindness of Samara's code would have actually played a prominent role, but I digress. *shrug* 

Modifié par gosimmons, 25 mars 2012 - 11:37 .

[Zix13]

gosimmons wrote...

Shame she didn't get more screentime than that.

Though I still think the whole Morinth conflict could have been a lot more developed if she hadn't been hunted for being a serial killer so much as for not wanting to be locked up in the monastery. The blindness of Samara's code would have actually played a prominent role, but I digress. *shrug* 

I felt this way as well, she never really got any attention in me2 and none in me3. Quite annoyed me since she was a fairly interesting character.

[ObserverStatus]

Lmaoboat wrote...
Uh, no actually, it does make it more monstrous. Much more. The motive behind an action is the most important part of it's morality. Killing that cop might have been been display of the extreme version of Lawful Neutral, but not much worse than something a Renegade Shepard might have done, and nowhere near as bad as Morinth, who just kills for her own pleasure, and there is no worse reason to kill than for pleasure.

You're wrong. Morinth does not simply kill for pleasure, she kills because she needs to.  Samara said that Morinth's killing is narcotic, she is psychologically addicted to killing.  She is a slave to her condition just as much as Samara is a slave to her code.  The difference between  them is that Morinth did not choose to be born an Ardat-Yakshi, while Samara chose to become a Justicar.

Lmaoboat wrote... 
"Might have been." From her perspective, he was just gunning down an unarmed civilian. And if you recall, he only escaped after making so she would have to save an innocent instead of go after him. And how the heck is trying to kill a guy who was killing an unarmed civilian who "might" have been a spy worse than killing completely innocent people?

Killing NIhlus would be worse than killing Nef, because he was most likely on an assignment for the council, and by stopping him from doing his job she could have been endangering anyone he was assigned to protect.  If you kill an artist on Omega, you're just killing one person, but if you kill a spectre, you could be causing the death of far more.  We really have no idea what NIhlus was doing on his mission, so I'll use one of Shepard's missions.

Let's say Samara met a particularly unlawful Krogan and followed him to Virmire.  There, she witnessed Shepard gunning down Rana Thanopolis in cold blood.  Shepard had reason to believe that Rana was indoctriated and could not allow her to escape and hurt more people, but Samara does not know this, all she knows it that Shepard shot and killed an unarmed civilian.  If this were to happen, she would not bother trying to figure out why Shepard did what he did, and why would she.  She did not bother trying to figure out why Nihlus killed his victim, in ME2 she cannot even be bothered to ask why she is going to help Shepard eradicate an entire species.  She would simply try to kill him.  And if she were to succeed and Shepard was unable to wipe out Saren's lab, the galaxy would have been doomed.  That's a lot more hurt people than just one artist and her mother.

NIhlus's mission may or may not have been as important as Shepard's mission on Virmire, but we will never know simply because Samara did not car

Lmaoboat wrote...  
"Disturbing facet" I'll you what's disturbing, a serial killer with crazy mind control powers. Living by an extremely black-and-white code might not be at all good, but it's miles away pleasure killing. And I don't think Shepard would want to know if anything of the Mercs or Cerberus agents he killed were love fathers either. You sure seem concerned about the lives Nihlus might have saved, but you don't seem to be to concerned about Morinth who will undoubtedly go on to kill perhaps hundreds of innocent people. She definitely deserves to die more than most people Shepard has killed.

Perhaps Morinth deserves to die more than most people Shepard has killed.  But do you know who does deserve to die more? Samara. It is likely that her actions have indirectly killed more people than Morinth ever will, simply because she isn't responsible enough figure out the context when she sees what she thinks is an injustice.  She just shoots first, and asks questions never.  Morinth makes a stroong effort to target isolated individuals in order to avoid making ripples.  She may not do this for the best of reasons, but at least it limits the damage caused by her actions.

 

Lmaoboat wrote...   
Meddling in galactic affairs, that doesn't really sound so sinister when the alternative as being a serial killer. And Samara isn't any more "meddling in Galactic affairs" when she happens to come across a spectre than if Morinth were to happen to mind control one. At the end of the day, Samara isn't really that different than Shepard, or many of the people on his squad, who see fit to dispense with trials and laws, and administer justice how they see fit.

Meddling in galactic affairs may not sound more sinister to you than being a serial killer, but my point is that Samara is dangerous to a far greater number of people than Morinth.   Morinth may be just as dangerous to Spectres as Morinth if they decide to walk up to her and feed themselves to her as Shepard did on Samara's loyalty mission, but she does not seek them out and try to seduce them when she see them doing their jobs.

[justafan]

Zix13 wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

More than she deserved, really.

Bro, she tried to save you from the ending. She's like marauder shields, but years ahead of her time.

I know right? She's only trying to seduce you in ME2 because she really does care 

[NPH11]

MjK wrote...

She's not a serial killer on purpose. 

There's a difference between escaping the monastary and escaping the monastary to go on a murder spree.

Modifié par NPH11, 26 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[ObserverStatus]

MaximusRex wrote...
Justicars represent an Asari Legal Code.  There are differences from our code, but there are similarities as well.  Justicars are given absolute authority, and the Asari know that.  Despite this, the cop on Illium was ordered by her Asari bosses to interfere, knowing full well the dangers.  Samara could ahve killed the Cop right away, but decided to be flexible due to Shepards help.  Basically, you are decideing that because it doesn't conform to your standards that Asari justice is amoral.

Precisely, you can try to muddy the issue with your fancy pants moral relativism if you'd like, but I am judging them by human standards.  We simply do not know enough about Asari justice to say if Morinth or Samara is a worse person by their standards.  But at the Nuremberg Trials, it was decided that a person ultimately is responsible for their own actions despite their creed or the orders of their superiors.  Sorry if that isn't good enough for you.

MaximusRex wrote... 
Murder is murder, Specters are outside of the Asari Justicar system, remember, Justicars almost never leave Asari space, most likely to avoid these strange legal overlaps.

Oh is it now?  I thought that in your last post you just got through telling me that murder is only murder if the murder was considered to be murder by the murderer's culture. 

MaximusRex wrote...  
Blind Justice is a basic premise of the American legal system, yet you seem to think when its a one woman show that is all of a sudden deeply disturbing.  Who cares if a serial killer is nice to his kids, that doesn't make serial killing ok.  Samara is correct, in a blind justice system it doesn't matter if someone who's crimes require the death penalty is a loving father, its immeterial.

Another aspect of the American justice is that you must prove beyond a resaonable doubt that the defendant is guilty before the exectution.  Samara simply did not know enough about the collectors or Nihlus when she commited to killing them to justify her actions.  When Shepard offered to give her incrimiating evidence that could justify killing the collectors, and she gave the thought experiment about the father, what she meant was that she did not care.  Not exaclty a valid analogy.

MaximusRex wrote... 
Samara is actually a lot like Judge Dread, a legal system rolled into one person.  While it might not appeal to modern western sensibilties, that hardly makes her a trigger happy zealot.  She only acts when a crime has occured, outside political motivations don't mean much to her, but then again, how much do they mean to western legal systems?

This is the second time you have flip flopped on whether or not "murder is murder".  Is it defined by culture or not?

MaximusRex wrote...  
Morinth on the other hand literally kills only for pleasure, and dosen't ever care.

Wrong, she kills because she has to.

MaximusRex wrote...   
Your basic argument is that laws don't apply if they are broken for the right reason, and since Samara adhears to blind justice, she's somehow a bad person.  And who is arbitor of the "right reason"?  You?  I hope not, because you already have stated that being a loving father is a mitigiating circumstance for a crime serious enough to require a death penalty.

Although Samara saw what Nihlus did as wrong, technically, what he did was legal under citadel law 

MaximusRex wrote...   
Shepard is a soilder, he gets to make moral decisions. Samara is a justice system, she can only make legal ones, and even at that she was willing to "ignore" that duty by being willing to kill herself to save her daughter.

If she was truly willing to ignore her duty and do the right thing, she would would have left that god forsaken rock with her daughter hand in hand.

[Dean_the_Young]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

Morinth is a total psychopath. Why would she risk herself to save her sisters?

Why did she go on a suicide mission and count as loyal?

For fun, and a sense of connection. Amoral doesn't mean unfeeling.

[Painaid]

Samara = Lawful Neutral

You can disagree with Samara's code as a Justicar, but you cannot deny that her actions are in the sole pursuit of Justice--no matter the form. You can disagree with the harshness of her actions, but you will always know that she stands on the side of Justice. Hence why Nihilus was able to pervert the code to escape from Samara by forcing her to protect an innocent civilian over gettig revenge.

Morinth = Chaotic Evil

There is -nothing- redeemable about her whatsoever. She is the ultimate egotistical, sociopathic apex predator. You can say she is a slave to her own desire, but that does not redeem her actions and choice to such a life. Samara said as much.

Modifié par Painaid, 26 mars 2012 - 01:55 .

[Painaid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

Morinth is a total psychopath. Why would she risk herself to save her sisters?

Why did she go on a suicide mission and count as loyal?

For fun, and a sense of connection. Amoral doesn't mean unfeeling.

Because she had a debt to pay back to Shepard for saving her life and ridding her of Samara's constant pursuit. If Sehpard had not chosen to kill Samara, Morinth would be dead anyway.

[movieguyabw]

Painaid wrote...

Samara = Lawful Neutral

You can disagree with Samara's code as a Justicar, but you cannot deny that her actions are in the sole pursuit of Justice--no matter the form. You can disagree with the harshness of her actions, but you will always know that she stands on the side of Justice. Hence why Nihilus was able to pervert the code to escape from Samara by forcing her to protect an innocent civilian over gettig revenge.

Morinth = Chaotic Evil

There is -nothing- redeemable about her whatsoever. She is the ultimate egotistical, sociopathic apex predator. You can say she is a slave to her own desire, but that does not redeem her actions and choice to such a life. Samara said as much.

"No one deserves execution, no matter what their crime."

^Ethos with which I played my 100% Paragon.  I ended up sparing Morinth, and she killed her mother.  I would've liked there to be a way to save them both, but oh well.

Interestingly enough, there's a possible ending to ME2 where Morinth sacrifices her life in order to save your crew.  What was that about there being "nothing redeemable" about her? 

[Zix13]

Painaid wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

Morinth is a total psychopath. Why would she risk herself to save her sisters?

Why did she go on a suicide mission and count as loyal?

For fun, and a sense of connection. Amoral doesn't mean unfeeling.

Because she had a debt to pay back to Shepard for saving her life and ridding her of Samara's constant pursuit. If Sehpard had not chosen to kill Samara, Morinth would be dead anyway.

Thus not chaotic evil. She's more neutral evil. She is ultimately predictable, though I can't quite understand why she agreed to go along with the whole suicide mission thing anyways.

[Phyzzix]

Zix13 wrote...

Phyzzix wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?

That would just make it a decision that has no consequence going into ME3 then if either character leads to the same outcome. Honestly it's pretty fitting in my opinion. You keep an Ardat-Yakshi alive, and at the monastery they tell you that they're turning Ardat-Yakshi into Banshees. Like what more can you really expect to be the outcome of this situation.

Disagree. Samara has the latent Ardat-Yakshi gene, so she could be turned into a Banshee. Frankly, Morinth is smarter and more resourceful than Samara. Self-Preservation is Morinths way of life. She should have been the last one you'd expect to see turn up as a banshee.

There really isn't anything that makes me even begin to believe she's smarter and more resourceful honestly. Yes she can blend in and hide from her mother, but in the end, her mother still uses resources at her disposal to find Morinth. Hiding from someone in a galaxy of many systems and many planets full of billions of people I feel would be way easier than trying to find a single person that doesn't want to be found in a galaxy of that size.