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#101
Lmaoboat

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bobobo878 wrote...


You're wrong. Morinth does not simply kill for pleasure, she kills because she needs to.  Samara said that Morinth's killing is narcotic, she is psychologically addicted to killing.  She is a slave to her condition just as much as Samara is a slave to her code.  The difference between  them is that Morinth did not choose to be born an Ardat-Yakshi, while Samara chose to become a Justicar.

She sure doesn't seem terribly shook up about it. You can't really use the "slave to my addiction" excuse when you fully enjoy every moment of it. She embraces her condition, and doesn't care who it kills.

bobobo878 wrote...

Killing NIhlus would be worse than killing Nef, because he was most likely on an assignment for the council, and by stopping him from doing his job she could have been endangering anyone he was assigned to protect.  If you kill an artist on Omega, you're just killing one person, but if you kill a spectre, you could be causing the death of far more.  We really have no idea what NIhlus was doing on his mission, so I'll use one of Shepard's missions.

Let's say Samara met a particularly unlawful Krogan and followed him to Virmire.  There, she witnessed Shepard gunning down Rana Thanopolis in cold blood.  Shepard had reason to believe that Rana was indoctriated and could not allow her to escape and hurt more people, but Samara does not know this, all she knows it that Shepard shot and killed an unarmed civilian.  If this were to happen, she would not bother trying to figure out why Shepard did what he did, and why would she.  She did not bother trying to figure out why Nihlus killed his victim, in ME2 she cannot even be bothered to ask why she is going to help Shepard eradicate an entire species.  She would simply try to kill him.  And if she were to succeed and Shepard was unable to wipe out Saren's lab, the galaxy would have been doomed.  That's a lot more hurt people than just one artist and her mother.

NIhlus's mission may or may not have been as important as Shepard's mission on Virmire, but we will never know simply because Samara did not car

If we're going to use hypothetical scenarios, Morinth could Seduce Shepard, kill him, and doom the galaxy. Oh wait, that can actually happen. Not that it even matters, considering it's the motives that determine the mortality of an action, anyway. The Illusive Man must be responsible for the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands, and yet he his less evil than Elnora, who killed one Volus and took great sadistic joy from it.

bobobo878 wrote...
Perhaps Morinth deserves to die more than most people Shepard has killed.  But do you know who does deserve to die more? Samara. It is likely that her actions have indirectly killed more people than Morinth ever will, simply because she isn't responsible enough figure out the context when she sees what she thinks is an injustice.  She just shoots first, and asks questions never.  Morinth makes a stroong effort to target isolated individuals in order to avoid making ripples.  She may not do this for the best of reasons, but at least it limits the damage caused by her actions.

Target isolated individuals? You know she once dominated a whole village, turned them into mind slaves, and had them bring her sacrifices to feed off of, right? And when Samara showed up to stop her, she used them as meat-shields to get away. Sometimes I wonder if the more evil a character is made out to be, the more challenged people are to redeem them. I bet she'd still have fans if she tore the heads off babies right in front of their mothers.

#102
The Angry One

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Samara and Morinth are both sociopaths, the only difference is Morinth is a hedonist while Samara comes up with a paranoid set of rules to justify murdering people.

#103
movieguyabw

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Lmaoboat wrote...
Sometimes I wonder if the more evil a character is made out to be, the more challenged people are to redeem them. I bet she'd still have fans if she tore the heads off babies right in front of their mothers.


Maybe so, but this is a game about CHOICE.  You don't have to choose to save her.  Why would you want others not to have the choice, in an RPG? 

#104
The Great and Powerful Trixie

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Ardat Yakshi are fascinating. It's a shame so many people get caught up on the killing bit of Morinth.

#105
Zix13

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Phyzzix wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

Phyzzix wrote...

Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?


That would just make it a decision that has no consequence going into ME3 then if either character leads to the same outcome. Honestly it's pretty fitting in my opinion. You keep an Ardat-Yakshi alive, and at the monastery they tell you that they're turning Ardat-Yakshi into Banshees. Like what more can you really expect to be the outcome of this situation.

Disagree. Samara has the latent Ardat-Yakshi gene, so she could be turned into a Banshee. Frankly, Morinth is smarter and more resourceful than Samara. Self-Preservation is Morinths way of life. She should have been the last one you'd expect to see turn up as a banshee.


There really isn't anything that makes me even begin to believe she's smarter and more resourceful honestly. Yes she can blend in and hide from her mother, but in the end, her mother still uses resources at her disposal to find Morinth. Hiding from someone in a galaxy of many systems and many planets full of billions of people I feel would be way easier than trying to find a single person that doesn't want to be found in a galaxy of that size.


It took Samara centuries just to catch up to her, and even then she needed Shep to find and bait her. Samara follows that ridiculous code, she can't be all that bright. Of course Morinth is more resourceful, Samara tracked down Nihlus, and he gave her the slip by threatening to kill a civilian..... dur...... Morinth doesn't have that kind of thing getting in her way.

#106
ahandsomeshark

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bobobo878 wrote...

Did you know that there is a Phantom named Jack at the Cerberus HQ if you don't rescue Jack at Grissom Academy? I'm guessing that before the Omega mission got scrapped for DLC, there was a part on that station where you could save her too. Hopefully they will change it so you can save her when that DLC comes out. Best LI in the game TBH.


Yeah and you hear them interrogating her too. It's kind of super creepy but a nice touch.

#107
Lmaoboat

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movieguyabw wrote...

Painaid wrote...

Samara = Lawful Neutral

You can disagree with Samara's code as a Justicar, but you cannot deny that her actions are in the sole pursuit of Justice--no matter the form. You can disagree with the harshness of her actions, but you will always know that she stands on the side of Justice. Hence why Nihilus was able to pervert the code to escape from Samara by forcing her to protect an innocent civilian over gettig revenge.

Morinth = Chaotic Evil

There is -nothing- redeemable about her whatsoever. She is the ultimate egotistical, sociopathic apex predator. You can say she is a slave to her own desire, but that does not redeem her actions and choice to such a life. Samara said as much.


"No one deserves execution, no matter what their crime."

^Ethos with which I played my 100% Paragon.  I ended up sparing Morinth, and she killed her mother.  I would've liked there to be a way to save them both, but oh well.

Interestingly enough, there's a possible ending to ME2 where Morinth sacrifices her life in order to save your crew.  What was that about there being "nothing redeemable" about her?  :P

There's a difference between not killing an unarmed, surrendering merc, and not killing a fugitive who has no intent if turning herself in, if capturing her is even physically possible, and who has killed countless amounts of people over hundreds of years, and will continue to do so unless stopped. And let's not even get into the fact that you executed Samara

Modifié par Lmaoboat, 26 mars 2012 - 02:23 .


#108
frylock23

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Red Dust wrote...

Would it have been such a great stretch of the budget to put her in place of Samara, attempting to rescue and liberate her sisters?


And then, there could have been three banshees at that ending point in London instead of just her.Image IPB

Then, that one Cain would have been that much more important.

#109
NoUserNameHere

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You have a choice, given high enough Paragon/Renegade scores...

Side with a woman who is basically Renegade Shepard, or side with a serial killer who could very likely brainwash your entire team while you are off on a mission.

You pick Morinth, and the serial killer whose entire M.O. is mind control winds up a brainwashed and crazy slave of a much bigger fish in the galactic sea. Samara on the other hand returns, ready and able to do the nasty things that any Renegade would do to get the job done. This is not injustice. This is karma..

The only real alternative that doesn't involve Morinth trying to blow your mind that I could accept would involve Morinth returning as a super-powerful asset or super-secret squadmate as payoff for those Renegades who dare to take stupid, stupid risks.

#110
The Angry One

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How is it a stupid risk, Morinth would know any renegade Shepard would nail her ass to the wall if she tried anything with the crew. She's not stupid.

#111
Zix13

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NoUserNameHere wrote...

You have a choice, given high enough Paragon/Renegade scores...

Side with a woman who is basically Renegade Shepard, or side with a serial killer who could very likely brainwash your entire team while you are off on a mission.

You pick Morinth, and the serial killer whose entire M.O. is mind control winds up a brainwashed and crazy slave of a much bigger fish in the galactic sea. Samara on the other hand returns, ready and able to do the nasty things that any Renegade would do to get the job done. This is not injustice. This is karma..

The only real alternative that doesn't involve Morinth trying to blow your mind that I could accept would involve Morinth returning as a super-powerful asset or super-secret squadmate as payoff for those Renegades who dare to take stupid, stupid risks.



Not really a risk. Morinth isn't stupid, she knows Shep can kill her(if you get the option to kill Samara), and wouldn't encourage death to dick around with shepards crew. And no Samara is not a renegade shep since she says she'll kill you if she runs into you after the suicide mission if you're a renegade shep. And Morinth winding up as a banshee was stupid, as I said before, it would happen to Samara long before Morinth.

#112
The Angry One

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I like to think that Banshee is just a random one that Morinth happened to come across and write "MORINTH" on her forehead in crayon before running away.

#113
Zix13

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The Angry One wrote...

I like to think that Banshee is just a random one that Morinth happened to come across and write "MORINTH" on her forehead in crayon before running away.

I like this theory better. Or perhaps she dominated the banshee, and it would start talking to us if we didn't cain it right away.

#114
NoUserNameHere

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Zix13 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

You have a choice, given high enough Paragon/Renegade scores...

Side with a woman who is basically Renegade Shepard, or side with a serial killer who could very likely brainwash your entire team while you are off on a mission.

You pick Morinth, and the serial killer whose entire M.O. is mind control winds up a brainwashed and crazy slave of a much bigger fish in the galactic sea. Samara on the other hand returns, ready and able to do the nasty things that any Renegade would do to get the job done. This is not injustice. This is karma..

The only real alternative that doesn't involve Morinth trying to blow your mind that I could accept would involve Morinth returning as a super-powerful asset or super-secret squadmate as payoff for those Renegades who dare to take stupid, stupid risks.



Not really a risk. Morinth isn't stupid, she knows Shep can kill her(if you get the option to kill Samara), and wouldn't encourage death to dick around with shepards crew. And no Samara is not a renegade shep since she says she'll kill you if she runs into you after the suicide mission if you're a renegade shep. And Morinth winding up as a banshee was stupid, as I said before, it would happen to Samara long before Morinth.


- Samara is not an A-Y as far as I know, being capable of having kids and all. So that means no Banshee powers.
- Who says renegade-types have to agree on all points? 

- Morinth slipped away from small threats like lone Justicars. A full scale Reaper invasion is orders of magnitude larger. Again, it's karmic.

As for the Normandy living situation... sneakin' into the captain's quarters. Heavy risk. I really wish you could lock that door.
Hell, mind control the crew and surprise Shep when he gets back from the Shadow Broker's ship. Kasumi and Joker seem to be the only ones who suspect her -- wouldn't be quite so bad if her little secret were common knowledge.

#115
MalexT

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I think Morinth and Samara were both well-written characters, and excellent foils for each other. The sheer amount of deep discussion on this thread shows that there were some pretty strong and well-thought-out motivations for picking one or the other - as well, of course, as the fair and inevitable 'one of them just bored me to tears' arguments ;)

Without really getting into the gritty details of the argument, I just wanted to say thanks to the OP for bringing up what happens to her. She was one of the characters I wanted to catch up with on a 2nd playthrough, though since hitting the ending I just can't summon the motivation for one (different thread entirely). It's good to know I'm not missing a whole lot - or rather, it's not good to know at all, but it saves me the expectation of finding something that isn't there.

I'd like to see an Omega dlc, provided they fix the ending first. I liked the place in ME2, and more Aria and Morinth would be cool.

Just to be sure: nobody's found any way to interact with Morinth before this 'cameo', or a way to avoid it?

#116
Rolling Flame

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I would've actually liked to see Morinth replace Samara in the monestary, trying to save her sisters, who she does care about. Would've been interesting to see her reaction to Rila being indoctrinated and Falere wanting to stay after the bomb exploded.

#117
Dean_the_Young

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Painaid wrote...

Because she had a debt to pay back to Shepard for saving her life and ridding her of Samara's constant pursuit. If Sehpard had not chosen to kill Samara, Morinth would be dead anyway.

She's an amoral sociopath, not a being of law: she's not bound by higher forces to keep her word. If Morinth betrays Shepard, Shepard can't exactly go back in time and bring back Samara.

#118
Zix13

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NoUserNameHere wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

You have a choice, given high enough Paragon/Renegade scores...

Side with a woman who is basically Renegade Shepard, or side with a serial killer who could very likely brainwash your entire team while you are off on a mission.

You pick Morinth, and the serial killer whose entire M.O. is mind control winds up a brainwashed and crazy slave of a much bigger fish in the galactic sea. Samara on the other hand returns, ready and able to do the nasty things that any Renegade would do to get the job done. This is not injustice. This is karma..

The only real alternative that doesn't involve Morinth trying to blow your mind that I could accept would involve Morinth returning as a super-powerful asset or super-secret squadmate as payoff for those Renegades who dare to take stupid, stupid risks.



Not really a risk. Morinth isn't stupid, she knows Shep can kill her(if you get the option to kill Samara), and wouldn't encourage death to dick around with shepards crew. And no Samara is not a renegade shep since she says she'll kill you if she runs into you after the suicide mission if you're a renegade shep. And Morinth winding up as a banshee was stupid, as I said before, it would happen to Samara long before Morinth.


- Samara is not an A-Y as far as I know, being capable of having kids and all. So that means no Banshee powers.
- Who says renegade-types have to agree on all points? 

- Morinth slipped away from small threats like lone Justicars. A full scale Reaper invasion is orders of magnitude larger. Again, it's karmic.

As for the Normandy living situation... sneakin' into the captain's quarters. Heavy risk. I really wish you could lock that door.
Hell, mind control the crew and surprise Shep when he gets back from the Shadow Broker's ship. Kasumi and Joker seem to be the only ones who suspect her -- wouldn't be quite so bad if her little secret were common knowledge.


Samara's kids are AY, thus she has the latent gene. Therefore, she can become a banshee. Reapers aren't very good at killing biotics, and Morinth is about as powerful as they come, I guarantee that she would be able to evade reapers as long as she needs too. That ****** ass random commando in the hospital says she could avoid being found by reaper forces. And even if the reapers did catch up to her, it would make more sense to indoctrinate her, since she's more dangerous than any banshee anyways. And you do realize you have legion on your ship at some point right? Not to mention EDI, who would notice this right away and alert the crew, or, failing that vent whichever part of the ship she's in. No, Morinth would be stupid to try anything with Sheps crew, and she's not stupid. Your move.

#119
NoUserNameHere

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Zix13 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Zix13 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

You have a choice, given high enough Paragon/Renegade scores...

Side with a woman who is basically Renegade Shepard, or side with a serial killer who could very likely brainwash your entire team while you are off on a mission.

You pick Morinth, and the serial killer whose entire M.O. is mind control winds up a brainwashed and crazy slave of a much bigger fish in the galactic sea. Samara on the other hand returns, ready and able to do the nasty things that any Renegade would do to get the job done. This is not injustice. This is karma..

The only real alternative that doesn't involve Morinth trying to blow your mind that I could accept would involve Morinth returning as a super-powerful asset or super-secret squadmate as payoff for those Renegades who dare to take stupid, stupid risks.



Not really a risk. Morinth isn't stupid, she knows Shep can kill her(if you get the option to kill Samara), and wouldn't encourage death to dick around with shepards crew. And no Samara is not a renegade shep since she says she'll kill you if she runs into you after the suicide mission if you're a renegade shep. And Morinth winding up as a banshee was stupid, as I said before, it would happen to Samara long before Morinth.


- Samara is not an A-Y as far as I know, being capable of having kids and all. So that means no Banshee powers.
- Who says renegade-types have to agree on all points? 

- Morinth slipped away from small threats like lone Justicars. A full scale Reaper invasion is orders of magnitude larger. Again, it's karmic.

As for the Normandy living situation... sneakin' into the captain's quarters. Heavy risk. I really wish you could lock that door.
Hell, mind control the crew and surprise Shep when he gets back from the Shadow Broker's ship. Kasumi and Joker seem to be the only ones who suspect her -- wouldn't be quite so bad if her little secret were common knowledge.


Samara's kids are AY, thus she has the latent gene. Therefore, she can become a banshee. Reapers aren't very good at killing biotics, and Morinth is about as powerful as they come, I guarantee that she would be able to evade reapers as long as she needs too. That ****** ass random commando in the hospital says she could avoid being found by reaper forces. And even if the reapers did catch up to her, it would make more sense to indoctrinate her, since she's more dangerous than any banshee anyways. And you do realize you have legion on your ship at some point right? Not to mention EDI, who would notice this right away and alert the crew, or, failing that vent whichever part of the ship she's in. No, Morinth would be stupid to try anything with Sheps crew, and she's not stupid. Your move.


Okay, so EDI and Legion would've made it difficult.
She still tries to suck your brains out! That shows, like, sinister intent. Suppose the risk is dependant on how 'anxious' Shepard is after the suicide mission.

re: the Omega dlc situation. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to replace the Morinth!Banshee with her generic unnamed cousin. Morinth could become a DLC war asset (or try to brain drain you again) after the pack is complete.

#120
Zix13

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NoUserNameHere wrote...

Okay, so EDI and Legion would've made it difficult.
She still tries to suck your brains out! That shows, like, sinister intent. Suppose the risk is dependant on how 'anxious' Shepard is after the suicide mission.

 
Why is this a bad thing? She was just trying to save you from the ending.

NoUserNameHere wrote... 
re: the Omega dlc situation. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to replace the Morinth!Banshee with her generic unnamed cousin. Morinth could become a DLC war asset (or try to brain drain you again) after the pack is complete.

The only person Morinth was remotely loyal to was shepard, so I'm not sure how the war asset bit would work out, unless she had a dominated colony fighting for her, that would be pretty legit.

#121
NoUserNameHere

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Zix13 wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Okay, so EDI and Legion would've made it difficult.
She still tries to suck your brains out! That shows, like, sinister intent. Suppose the risk is dependant on how 'anxious' Shepard is after the suicide mission.

 
Why is this a bad thing? She was just trying to save you from the ending.

NoUserNameHere wrote... 
re: the Omega dlc situation. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to replace the Morinth!Banshee with her generic unnamed cousin. Morinth could become a DLC war asset (or try to brain drain you again) after the pack is complete.

The only person Morinth was remotely loyal to was shepard, so I'm not sure how the war asset bit would work out, unless she had a dominated colony fighting for her, that would be pretty legit.




She could gather latent A-Y into an anti-banshee brigade.

#122
smargh1015

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I think it's hilarious. If you were the kind of person who would sacrifice the purest bastion of justice since the Punisher, who trusts you to lead her against unparalleled odds for a a literal sexual predator who has murdered dozens of innocent people by twisting their minds and then killing them with sex, just for kicks, even though she is still willing to kill you after you save her life. It's sort of poetic justice how your reward for this is that you get an email saying:

thanks for saving me, now im going to murder a bunch of people!

XOXO Morinth

And then when you finally do meet her again she's a husk controlled by the reapers while Samara has her own mission and can be a war asset. I don't understand why anyone would choose Morinth over Samara, not even my own renegade Shepard would do that. But what ever maybe they were just lazy about Morinth and didn't put much effort into her in ME3.

#123
The Angry One

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Morinth microwaves your brain if you're stupid enough to believe her lies.
I got the impression that Morinth got a kick out of being with Shepard, and if Shep was dumb enough to let her have her way then fine. If not, fine as well.

#124
Zix13

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smargh1015 wrote...

I think it's hilarious. If you were the kind of person who would sacrifice the purest bastion of justice since the Punisher, who trusts you to lead her against unparalleled odds for a a literal sexual predator who has murdered dozens of innocent people by twisting their minds and then killing them with sex, just for kicks, even though she is still willing to kill you after you save her life. It's sort of poetic justice how your reward for this is that you get an email saying:

thanks for saving me, now im going to murder a bunch of people!

XOXO Morinth

And then when you finally do meet her again she's a husk controlled by the reapers while Samara has her own mission and can be a war asset. I don't understand why anyone would choose Morinth over Samara, not even my own renegade Shepard would do that. But what ever maybe they were just lazy about Morinth and didn't put much effort into her in ME3.


Not putting much effort into her in ME3 was pretty obvious. And defining Samara as pure is ehhhhhh..... pretty sure she's killed her share of "grey area innocents"

#125
NPH11

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I'll still pick the person who follows at least some semblance of "justice" (Despite how perverted that definition may be) over a serial killer.

Samara follows an archaic code that, over the course of her mission, has likely resulted in the deaths of more than a few innocent people. We don't really know, we never see it happen (Those mercenaries, who smuggled a killer off world and are part of a group that requires you to kill someone to gain entry certainly weren't innocent)

Morinth kills because she gets pleasure out of it. She follows no moral code. She isn't killing out of some "addiction" as others argue. All of her kills are pre-meditated, not the actions of a desperate addict.

Samara certainly isn't perfect, but she's the lesser of two evils.