314 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

ShadyKat wrote...

So is this one of those, "Most people play only as humans" kind of things? Because many people love to play Call of Duty, and many hate it. Just saying that options are a good thing. Many people hate playing as humans when given the option not to.

So only 15% of people played as elves in DAO, and probably 10% or less played as dwarves. That's still 25% or more of the few millions of people that purchased Origins. That's a larger number then you make it sound like.

I think that's a great point - I've read a lot of people who stated that they enjoyed the different options that were avaliable in Origins. Considering that Origins isn't the only game where we know fans liked having the option to play as a race other than human, I'm not sure why this is even being debated. There are a plethora of games where we see fans use non-human protagonists, rather than human protagonists - the Elder Scrolls is one of them, with Skyrim being the most recent addition to the franchise in offering players a variety of options in what race they want to play as.

Personally, I preferred going through Origins with my Surana Warden - the elven mage from the Circle of Ferelden.

[andraip]

David Gaider wrote...
This is true. We still put an ending into the game, for instance, despite how few players actually see it.

So you not only scrapped multiple races from DA2 because most people don't play them but also ignored the need of an ending simply because most people never actually see it?

I think you guys (Bioware) forgot that the ones who write the reviews or tell their friends about a game are mostly part of that few people who actually see the ending, or lack thereof.

[nightscrawl]

JeeWeeJ wrote...

American?? Really?? Hmm, then my memory of dwarves must be faulty then! I stand corrected! (has been quite some time since I last played a DA game...) But still, they did have they own -distinguisable- accent, and I think it would be a petty to drop that, just so we can play dwarves.

DA dwarves for the most part have an American accent, yes. One of the notable exceptions is Bodahn who speaks with an English accent. The Qunari also have an American accent. As far as accents go, DA2 changed things up a bit with the Dalish having a combo of Irish and Welsh accents among the members, whereas in DAO they also had American accents (I can't speak for Dalish elf origin, as I only played that once, but it's accurate for Brecillian Forest elves), but the alienage elves still have American accents. Anitvans have a Spanish accent, and Orlesians have French accents. I don't know about the Rivaini or if Isabela can be considered standard for them.

Humans from Ferelden and the Free Marches have English accents. I have no idea why Sebastian is Scottish other than to suggest that Starkhaven, being north of Kirkwall and Ferelden, is similarly situated to real-world Scotland in that regard so he will have a "northern" accent. The Tevinter have their own language, so I imagine their English accent comes as a throw back from Andraste's invading army (I think it would be fantastic here to use a non-standard type of British colonial accent for these, South African or something along those lines, for extra flavor).

Yes, there may be an exception here and there, but for the most part the various groups have a cohesive sound to them.

I'm still waiting to hear the adorable Canadian accent. C'mon Bioware, I'm sure you can find a place for it! Maybe the Anders can sound Canadian (although I had imagined them sounding more Germanic)?

One thing I REALLY want to know is what the language we hear is called. Many fantasies use the terms "common" or "standard" for the english we hear people speaking, then all of the various races (dwarves, elves, etc), have their own separate languages.


[edit]
Changed British to English accent for regional accuracy.

andraip wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
This is true. We still put an ending into the game, for instance, despite how few players actually see it. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

So you not only scrapped multiple races from DA2 because most people don't play them but also ignored the need of an ending simply because most people never actually see it?

I think you guys (Bioware) forgot that the ones who write the reviews or tell their friends about a game are mostly part of that few people who actually see the ending, or lack thereof.

So, I can't tell if you're trolling or what. He was JOKING. And yes, DA2 does have an ending. Granted, it's not an ending that many people (on the BSN at any rate) seem to like, but there is one just the same. The game doesn't stop mid-stride or anything. DA2 is a bridge game, it was obvious from the very first time I played it, and it's even more apparent after having read Asunder. Flemeth said that we are standing on the "precipice of change." Despite Hawke's "rise to power" and all of the promotional stuff, the change was the impact of the game. In the next game, we will feel/see the result of that impact.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 27 avril 2012 - 10:02 .

[NedPepper]

David Gaider wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...
Maria Caliban's earlier post about the small portion of players who complete the romances (if accurate) is a perfect example. Bioware wants their games to have these romance options, so they design them that way, even though a small portion of players even see the content.

This is true. We still put an ending into the game, for instance, despite how few players actually see it.

I find that so....bizarre.  Especially for a game that is really SOLD by its story.  I know it happens.  I see it happen all the time.  A lot of people simply never finish games.  But, then again, most games aren't marketed by their story.  The joy of Bioware is experiencing the whole plot. Heh. Gamers.  I can't make sense of them.

Modifié par nedpepper, 28 mars 2012 - 03:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Wulfram wrote...

Restraint wrote...

It's not just the voice acting that is the problem, though. They would have to make the story generic enough to make PCs of multiple races seem consistent, which gets in the way of them actually going in depth with racial politics in the story. 

I mean, how would it be if one of the upcoming dragon age games features a qunari invasion or an exalted march on the dwarves? The story is only going to diverge so much, after all. It would have to be frighteningly bland to make things consistent with multiple racial choices. Even origins, which had a lot of leeway in this area from the stereotypical plot about uniting everyone to save the world, was almost identical for every race after the origin story.

How would DA2 not have worked with an elven (non dalish) protagonist?  I mean, there'd be a few differences - a different family, obviously, and people generally being ruder until act 3 - but well, that's the point of having different origins isn't it?

The storyline of each act still works fine.  Act 1 only requires you need money.  Act 2 requires that you have the attention of the Arishok, and the Arishok wouldn't care that you're an elf.  Act 3 requires that you saved the city and became Champion - and if a Mage can be accepted as Champion then an elf can.

I agree. The prologue is about escaping the Blight, and Kirkwall is the closest region to Ferelden's Amaranthine. It wouldn't be too difficult for an elven protagonist and his family to flee the Fifth Blight by heading to one of the closest areas of the Free Marches, especially if they have limited resources. Kirkwall also houses a prominent dwarven population, so even a dwarven protagonist and his family could have reason to head to the city-state. Having a relative in the city-state who has some connections would establish the scenerio between the prologue and Act I, so I don't see the issue.

There's a precedent for this. The elven hero Garahel stopped the Fourth Blight, united the Free Marches, and became a hero for stopping the Archdemon Andoral.

[ShadyKat]

Humans will always be the most popular race in any game. Even in World of Warcraft, humans usually outnumber all of the other races combined. That doesn't mean that people don't love playing as the other races. Same goes for The Elder Scrolls. The reason that I skipped on The Old Republic, was the lack of more alien races (and from TOR forums, so did a lot of other people). And I'm not talking blue humans, I mean races like Rodian and Bothan. If they are added in a expansion later on, I may check the game out.

Modifié par ShadyKat, 28 mars 2012 - 04:28 .

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

I think I can safely say that this is a battle I appear to be winning.

I can see statues of unnamed hero in alienages throughout Thedas, come DA3

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[LobselVith8]

Restraint wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

How would DA2 not have worked with an elven (non dalish) protagonist?  I mean, there'd be a few differences - a different family, obviously, and people generally being ruder until act 3 - but well, that's the point of having different origins isn't it?

The storyline of each act still works fine.  Act 1 only requires you need money.  Act 2 requires that you have the attention of the Arishok, and the Arishok wouldn't care that you're an elf.  Act 3 requires that you saved the city and became Champion - and if a Mage can be accepted as Champion then an elf can.

Origins may have squeaked by with what amounted to nothing more than a few people being generally ruder to Elf Wardens, but I don't believe that is what Bioware should or do aspire to. Elves are pretty downtrodden in this setting. It would be like if the new Assassin's Creed protagonist was black and only a few of the 18th century american NPCs so much as made an offhand comment about it. It just rings hollow and in my opinion undermines the setting. It would be worse in a game whose plot involved an actual racial war. What kind of mental gymnastics would have to be done to justify a Kossith PC in a story about uniting the free marches or whatever against a Qunari invasion? 

There's already a precedence for an elven hero - an elven Warden united the Free Marches against the Archdemon during the Fourth Blight.

Being downtrodden wouldn't change the fact that an elven protagonist could be valued by the Arishok just as much as a human could - this is evident if Fenris is brought with Hawke the first time he meets with the Arishok. I doubt the Viscount is going to refuse to involve an elven protagonist or a dwarven protagonist if he (or she) is the one who is being requested from the Arishok. Hawke's status as the son of a known apostate (who was hunted by templars) certainly didn't seem to matter, so I don't see why the protagonist being a different race would have been that much of an issue.

Restraint wrote...

Also a mage becoming Kirkwall's champion (and in general everyone ignoring your being a mage) is probably one of the weaker parts of the story in DA2. Mages vs non-mages gets the same kind of whitewashing that the races would get if they went back to having origin stories and I'd like to see that improved.

I would like to see that improved, too, because (as you indicated) the apostate Hawke storyline was only weak because the writers never properly addressed it in the narrative. Sebastian never addresses an apostate Hawke's status as an illegal mage, despite his views. It's ignored by a plethora of characters (including templars). It's never even properly addressed once Act III takes place. Being an illegal mage at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas could have made for a compelling narrative, had we actually gotten an apostate POV.

[The Elder King]

David Gaider wrote...

I think I can safely say that this is a battle I appear to be winning.

I'm glad about it. I hate seeing elves without shoes.

[Restraint]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I agree. The prologue is about escaping the Blight, and Kirkwall is the closest region to Ferelden's Amaranthine. It wouldn't be too difficult for an elven protagonist and his family to flee the Fifth Blight by heading to one of the closest areas of the Free Marches, especially if they have limited resources. Kirkwall also houses a prominent dwarven population, so even a dwarven protagonist and his family could have reason to head to the city-state. Having a relative in the city-state who has some connections would establish the scenerio between the prologue and Act I, so I don't see the issue.

There's a precedent for this. The elven hero Garahel stopped the Fourth Blight, united the Free Marches, and became a hero for stopping the Archdemon Andoral.

The issue is that they can ignore all of the interesting race-related lore in the series to give us the opportunity to play what amount to short or pointy-eared humans, or they can stick to a single protagonist and craft a deeper narrative to fit.

It looks like you're saying they should just treat the races like they did in DA:O. The problem is DA:O did it really badly.

LobselVith8 wrote...


There's already a precedence for an elven hero - an elven Warden united the Free Marches against the Archdemon during the Fourth Blight. 

Being downtrodden wouldn't change the fact that an elven protagonist could be valued by the Arishok just as much as a human could - this is evident if Fenris is brought with Hawke the first time he meets with the Arishok. I doubt the Viscount is going to refuse to involve an elven protagonist or a dwarven protagonist if he (or she) is the one who is being requested from the Arishok. Hawke's status as the son of a known apostate (who was hunted by templars) certainly didn't seem to matter, so I don't see why the protagonist being a different race would have been that much of an issue.

There are various plotholes big and small about why an elf Hawke wouldn't work in DA2's story, but you're right the writers could have filled in those plotholes if they chose to do so. It wouldn't have changed the real problem though, which is that elves are treated fundamentally different to humans. Since due to resource limitations they can't portray things like casual racism from everyone you meet or open hostility when people consider you to be rising above your place without a narrative specifically tailored to an elf protagonist, I would rather they didn't bother dumbing that aspect of the game down just to give everyone a few rather empty racial choices.

LobselVith8 wrote... 


I would like to see that improved, too, because (as you indicated) the apostate Hawke storyline was only weak because the writers never properly addressed it in the narrative. Sebastian never addresses an apostate Hawke's status as an illegal mage, despite his views. It's ignored by a plethora of characters (including templars). It's never even properly addressed once Act III takes place. Being an illegal mage at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas could have made for a compelling narrative, had we actually gotten an apostate POV.

Then you can certainly understand where I'm coming from about the races, because to me at least everyone ignoring you are a mage is not fundamentally different from everyone ignoring you are an elf or dwarf or kossith.

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 05:04 .

[LobselVith8]

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I agree. The prologue is about escaping the Blight, and Kirkwall is the closest region to Ferelden's Amaranthine. It wouldn't be too difficult for an elven protagonist and his family to flee the Fifth Blight by heading to one of the closest areas of the Free Marches, especially if they have limited resources. Kirkwall also houses a prominent dwarven population, so even a dwarven protagonist and his family could have reason to head to the city-state. Having a relative in the city-state who has some connections would establish the scenerio between the prologue and Act I, so I don't see the issue.

There's a precedent for this. The elven hero Garahel stopped the Fourth Blight, united the Free Marches, and became a hero for stopping the Archdemon Andoral.

The issue is that they can ignore all of the interesting race-related lore in the series to give us the opportunity to play what amount to short or pointy-eared humans, or they can stick to a single protagonist and craft a deeper narrative to fit.

It looks like you're saying they should just treat the races like they did in DA:O. The problem is DA:O did it really badly.

Why can't the writers craft a deeper narrative, and provide us the option to play as one of three different races? Why must it be one or the other? I don't see why the writers can't craft a compelling story, and made a human, an elf, and a dwarf part of the narrative. It also doesn't go against the lore if there is a precedent for a non-human to rise to prominence in the world of Thedas.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

There's already a precedence for an elven hero - an elven Warden united the Free Marches against the Archdemon during the Fourth Blight. 

Being downtrodden wouldn't change the fact that an elven protagonist could be valued by the Arishok just as much as a human could - this is evident if Fenris is brought with Hawke the first time he meets with the Arishok. I doubt the Viscount is going to refuse to involve an elven protagonist or a dwarven protagonist if he (or she) is the one who is being requested from the Arishok. Hawke's status as the son of a known apostate (who was hunted by templars) certainly didn't seem to matter, so I don't see why the protagonist being a different race would have been that much of an issue.

There are various plotholes big and small about why an elf Hawke wouldn't work in DA2's story, but you're right the writers could have filled in those plotholes if they chose to do so. It wouldn't have changed the real problem though, which is that elves are treated fundamentally different to humans. Since due to resource limitations they can't portray things like casual racism from everyone you meet or open hostility when people consider you to be rising above your place without a narrative specifically tailored to an elf protagonist, I would rather they didn't bother dumbing that aspect of the game down just to give everyone a few rather empty racial choices.

What plotholes would that be, precisely? Fenris is in Kirkwall. Merrill is in Kirkwall. Varric is in Kirkwall. None of them are human, and it isn't a plot hole for them to be in the city-state. It would simply change the story a bit, but not in any way that would create an entirely different story - the opportunity for wealth, the dealings with the Arishok, and the Viscount aspects of the story can be done with a non-human protagonist.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I would like to see that improved, too, because (as you indicated) the apostate Hawke storyline was only weak because the writers never properly addressed it in the narrative. Sebastian never addresses an apostate Hawke's status as an illegal mage, despite his views. It's ignored by a plethora of characters (including templars). It's never even properly addressed once Act III takes place. Being an illegal mage at the seat of templar power over eastern Thedas could have made for a compelling narrative, had we actually gotten an apostate POV.

Then you can certainly understand where I'm coming from about the races, because to me at least everyone ignoring you are a mage is not fundamentally different from everyone ignoring you are an elf or dwarf or kossith.

Hawke's the known son of an apostate - he even has his father's surname, and that isn't an issue for other characters. The fact is, even as a human, he never faces discrimination for being the son of an illegal mage. The story competely dumbs it down, so I don't see what difference it would've made to include an elven and a dwarven protagonist as options, when the story focusing on a human does the same thing.

[the_one_54321]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Why can't the writers craft a deeper narrative, and provide us the option to play as one of three different races?

All of Hawke's dialog is voiced. 100% voicing of a protagonist is very very time consuming and expensive. That's why.

[Restraint]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why can't the writers craft a deeper narrative, and provide us the option to play as one of three different races? Why must it be one or the other? I don't see why the writers can't craft a compelling story, and made a human, an elf, and a dwarf part of the narrative. It also doesn't go against the lore if there is a precedent for a non-human to rise to prominence in the world of Thedas.

Technical limitations. I don't have some moral objection to people having more choices or anything, I just don't think it's realistic or reasonable to expect Bioware to put the kind of resources into writing and voice acting that would be required to do three or four races well enough to make it worthwhile.

What plotholes would that be, precisely? Fenris is in Kirkwall. Merrill is in Kirkwall. Varric is in Kirkwall. None of them are human, and it isn't a plot hole for them to be in the city-state. It would simply change the story a bit, but not in any way that would create an entirely different story - the opportunity for wealth, the dealings with the Arishok, and the Viscount aspects of the story can be done with a non-human protagonist.

Things like a refugee family of elves getting into Kirkwall when the gates are closed to refugees or an elf Hawke representing the Viscount with the Qunari in act 2 or becoming champion in act 3. There are a lot of politics implied here (though they could have been presented better) that an elf probably wouldn't have navigated so well, unless the writers decided to treat them like pointy-eared humans. Like I said though, given enough leeway to create unique content the writers could have written around any plotholes if they had wanted to, so they really don't really even matter. It's the fact that for design reasons they would have had to portray all the races in exactly the same way like they did in DA:O after the origin stories that is my real problem.

Hawke's the known son of an apostate - he even has his father's surname, and that isn't an issue for other characters. The fact is, even as a human, he never faces discrimination for being the son of an illegal mage. The story competely dumbs it down, so I don't see what difference it would've made to include an elven and a dwarven protagonist as options, when the story focusing on a human does the same thing.

Right, the mage thing wasn't done very well in DA2. No arguments from me there. I'm not sure saying they could have done races just as badly is a ringing endorsement, though.

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 06:15 .

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I agree. The prologue is about escaping the Blight, and Kirkwall is the closest region to Ferelden's Amaranthine. It wouldn't be too difficult for an elven protagonist and his family to flee the Fifth Blight by heading to one of the closest areas of the Free Marches, especially if they have limited resources. Kirkwall also houses a prominent dwarven population, so even a dwarven protagonist and his family could have reason to head to the city-state. Having a relative in the city-state who has some connections would establish the scenerio between the prologue and Act I, so I don't see the issue.

There's a precedent for this. The elven hero Garahel stopped the Fourth Blight, united the Free Marches, and became a hero for stopping the Archdemon Andoral.

Thing is though that an Elven protagonist wouldn't be able to acquire an estate in Hightown. The nobles wouldn't allow such a thing to occur.

How many Elven nobles are there in Thedosian society, excluding Tevinter where one might happen?

Have we ever heard of an Elven noble in human lands? The only time it happens is when a City Elf Warden asks that the Elves get better represented in Denerim. That's outside influence helping them.

But an Elf trying to acquire the estate on his own wouldn't be able to happen.

At most, DAII could've had a Human protagonist and a Dwarven protagonist, since both are eligible to acquire estates and live richly. But Elves are considered inferior, so it wouldn't really make sense for it to happen. The nobles wouldn't allow such a thing.

The Viscount on the other hand, just might. But I don't know what his stance is towards Elves.

I'm sure the game could appropriately change to suit such needs in a believable fashion. I could even come up with ways it might work, given enough time.
 
But, I'm fine with being restricted to one race in some games so long as the game allows me to roleplay different characters sufficiently. Now I'm not saying other people should be fine with that. Certainly not. Just that had DAII allowed me to roleplay different Hawkes -- instead of watching them -- I would've enjoyed DAII.

DAII simply didn't do that.

And I do want to play as a Dwarf again in the future.

What plotholes would that be, precisely? Fenris is in Kirkwall. Merrill is in Kirkwall. Varric is in Kirkwall. None of them are human, and it isn't a plot hole for them to be in the city-state. It would simply change the story a bit, but not in any way that would create an entirely different story - the opportunity for wealth, the dealings with the Arishok, and the Viscount aspects of the story can be done with a non-human protagonist.

Fenris is squatting in a run-down estate of Danarius', and it's drawing the attention of both nobles and Guardsmen alike. He's only able to stay there for as long as he does because of Hawke and Aveline. Hawke's status keeps him from being evicted and Aveline draws away attention.

Now DAII didn't exactly give Hawke much of a believable importance. They just said "He's important because we say so, not because you could make him seem important". But from a lore standpoint, those are the reasons given.

Merrill lives in the Alienage and is only able to live in Hightown when she's romanced by Hawke, which drew a massive outrage from neighboring nobles. But they couldn't do anything about it because it's really nothing they can interfere with.

An Elven protagonist trying to acquire an estate on the other hand is something they can interfere with.

While DAII certainly failed to make a believable, cohesive, and well-done narrative those are the in-game reasons why Elves are allowed in Hightown. Even if Hawke doesn't live up to those reasons, sadly.

As for Varric, there isn't as much of a stigma against Dwarves. Dwarves are allowed to purchase estates and are reasonably well-liked, if stereotypically referred to as simply smiths and greedy merchants.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 05:45 .

[LobselVith8]

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Why can't the writers craft a deeper narrative, and provide us the option to play as one of three different races? Why must it be one or the other? I don't see why the writers can't craft a compelling story, and made a human, an elf, and a dwarf part of the narrative. It also doesn't go against the lore if there is a precedent for a non-human to rise to prominence in the world of Thedas.

Technical limitations. I don't have some moral objection to people having more choices or anything, I just don't think it's realistic or reasonable to expect Bioware to put the kind of resources into writing and voice acting that would be required to do three or four races well enough to make it worthwhile.

I recall the developers of Origins this as one of the reasons why they were going with a silent protagonist.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

What plotholes would that be, precisely? Fenris is in Kirkwall. Merrill is in Kirkwall. Varric is in Kirkwall. None of them are human, and it isn't a plot hole for them to be in the city-state. It would simply change the story a bit, but not in any way that would create an entirely different story - the opportunity for wealth, the dealings with the Arishok, and the Viscount aspects of the story can be done with a non-human protagonist.

Things like a refugee family of elves getting into Kirkwall when the gates are closed to refugees or an elf Hawke representing the Viscount with the Qunari in act 2 or becoming champion in act 3. There are a lot of politics implied here (though they could have been presented better) that an elf probably wouldn't have navigated so well, unless the writers decided to treat them like pointy-eared humans. Like I said though, given enough leeway to create unique content the writers could have written around any plotholes if they had wanted to, so they really don't really even matter. It's the fact that they would have had to portray all the races in exactly the same way like they did in DA:O after the origin stories that is my real problem.

First, being human had nothing to do with Hawke and his family getting into Kirkwall. Hawke's family doesn't get into Kirkwall because they were human - they get in because Hawke and his sibling agree to work for a particular group for an entire year. I can see that as being the reason why an elven or a dwarven family would be able to get in.

Second, the Viscount needs Hawke because the Arishok demanded Hawke's presence. No need to be human for the Arishok to prefer Hawke handling the situation.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke's the known son of an apostate - he even has his father's surname, and that isn't an issue for other characters. The fact is, even as a human, he never faces discrimination for being the son of an illegal mage. The story competely dumbs it down, so I don't see what difference it would've made to include an elven and a dwarven protagonist as options, when the story focusing on a human does the same thing.

Right, the mage thing wasn't done very well in DA2. No arguments from me there. I'm not sure saying they could have done races just as badly is a ringing endorsement, though.

I'm not addressing the lack of an apostate POV, I'm addressing that whether Hawke is a warrior or a rogue, he's still the son of an apostate, he even carries Malcolm's last name. There is no discrimination being felt by [a human] Hawke because of this, despite how the Amell family fell from grace because a mage was born into their family years ago.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

nightscrawl wrote...

JeeWeeJ wrote...

Anyway, ontopic, I'd love to see different player races, but, with the focus on a voiced PC, I just don´t see it happen. Dwarves and Elves have a very different dialect compared to humans in the DA games we´ve seen..and I don´t see Bioware doing 6 different voices(which is why I love a silent PC so much, leaves more choice regarding player race (or at least makes it easier to implement))

*malevolent spoilers removed*

lets remember this is still a no spoilers section.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thing is though that an Elven protagonist wouldn't be able to acquire an estate in Hightown. The nobles wouldn't allow such a thing to occur.

True, but an elven or a dwarven Hawke can still focus on obtaining wealth regardless. It creates a difference between a human and a dwarven or elven Hawke, but that's pretty much it. An elven Hawke probably couldn't become a noble, but I honestly don't see how Hawke being a noble as a human mattered. Hawke killed things in Act I, Act II, and Act III - he didn't use his status as a noble to do anything. It's why some complain that Hawke was passive - he seemed to wait around for people to ask him to handle things.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And I do want to play as a Dwarf again in the future.

I loved the Dwarven Noble story - even seeing the protagonist telling his second to kill the man who offended him, like it was no big deal. Seeing a merchant faint (simply for talking to the Dwarven Noble). Challenging a man to a duel. I love dwarven politics. That was a fun Origin story.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Fenris is squatting in a run-down estate of Danarius', and it's drawing the attention of both nobles and Guardsmen alike. He's only able to stay there for as long as he does because of Hawke and Aveline. Hawke's status keeps him from being evicted and Aveline draws away attention.

My point wasn't focused on the Amell mansion, it was focused on the idea that an elven or a dwarven Hawke could still be in Kirkwall - handling problems, getting money, falling in love - and it wouldn't be a plothole. Is the mansion that integral to the story that every aspect of the narrative would change of it wasn't an issue? I honestly don't think it would, because Hawke is basically fighting people for seven years.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Now DAII didn't exactly give Hawke much of a believable importance. They just said "He's important because we say so, not because you could make him seem important". But from a lore standpoint, those are the reasons given.

Merrill lives in the Alienage and is only able to live in Hightown when she's romanced by Hawke, which drew a massive outrage from neighboring nobles. But they couldn't do anything about it because it's really nothing they can interfere with.

Which we know from a codex entry, not because it was integral to the story or even properly addressed in the narrative.

[Restraint]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I recall the developers of Origins this as one of the reasons why they were going with a silent protagonist.

Even with a silent protagonist they still didn't succeed. It's just as much about how npcs react to your race as it is about the way your protagonist speaks. Since they're not going to write triple the dialogue for every minor npc and a ton of unique content into the game just to portray the races well, I would rather they didn't undermine the setting they created in return for what would amount to a few extra body types for a human protagonist.

First, being human had nothing to do with Hawke and his family getting into Kirkwall. Hawke's family doesn't get into Kirkwall because they were human - they get in because Hawke and his sibling agree to work for a particular group for an entire year. I can see that as being the reason why an elven or a dwarven family would be able to get in.

Second, the Viscount needs Hawke because the Arishok demanded Hawke's presence. No need to be human for the Arishok to prefer Hawke handling the situation.

You keep trying to pick apart given examples, but I'm not really interested in arguing the merits of any particular plothole because like I keep saying they don't even matter. I fully admit that, had the writers been given leeway to smooth over any and all rough edges that may or may not have been created by having an elf or dwarf Hawke, they could have done so. That isn't really the problem; I just gave you a couple of examples because you asked for them.

The real problem is what I said above, that the races are treated differently in a thousand minor and major ways, and the way DA:O did things where after the origin story everyone was treated in basically the same way isn't enough to do them justice. 

I'm not addressing the lack of an apostate POV, I'm addressing that whether Hawke is a warrior or a rogue, he's still the son of an apostate, he even carries Malcolm's last name. There is no discrimination being felt by [a human] Hawke because of this, despite how the Amell family fell from grace because a mage was born into their family years ago.

You're reading too much into any stigma attributed to being related to a mage. Meredith's sister was a mage iirc, and I remember a quest to return the mage son of a noble family to the circle. Besides Kirkwall isn't supposed to revolve around Hawke's every action. It's not like the second he/she walked into the city every last person there knew or cared about it. 

Mage Hawke's treatment was incosistent with the game setting but but the non-mage Hawke was done perfectly in my opinion. Bethany being taken away to the circle was done very well and it fit the setting, and also it gave extra weight to act 3 (which is generally considered weak). 

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 06:41 .

[LordPaul256]

Saints Row the Third had 6 voices for every dialogue option in the game.

How hard would it be to make 6 voices for 3 races? One male/female for each race. And that was done by THQ, who's not exactly in great financial means.

[Sharn01]

Restraint wrote...


There are various plotholes big and small about why an elf Hawke wouldn't work in DA2's story, but you're right the writers could have filled in those plotholes if they chose to do so. It wouldn't have changed the real problem though, which is that elves are treated fundamentally different to humans. Since due to resource limitations they can't portray things like casual racism from everyone you meet or open hostility when people consider you to be rising above your place without a narrative specifically tailored to an elf protagonist, I would rather they didn't bother dumbing that aspect of the game down just to give everyone a few rather empty racial choices.

This is true, but that doesnt mean you throw the concept of playing a non-human out of the game, if anything you should be encouraging them to create more content for the races.  I would absolutely love a game that explored things from an exclusively elven PC's perspective.  

Unfortunately I do not believe they will ever make a game where the PC is anything but human, they may give other options, but human will always be there,  and despite the fact that alphabetically human male should be at the very bottom of the list at character creation, it will always be first when the option is available.  Because of this I would like them to include additional races and create extra content for those races, it truly is the only way we will ever be able to explore their stories from their point of view, and even if they build a large story from the perspective of the elves for example, we will always be an outsider looking in if we are not personally invested in their problems.

I also kind of hope that if a Dalish tribe appears in DA3, even if we cant play a Dalish, that for once the option doesnt exsist to exterminate them, it will become a trope if its in the next game once again.  Its kind of far fetched to do so anyway, I am sure most dalish tribes number a hundred or more elves, it seems rediculous that a small group of people could just wade into their village with next to no resistance from them. 

Modifié par Sharn01, 28 mars 2012 - 06:44 .

[LobselVith8]

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I recall the developers of Origins this as one of the reasons why they were going with a silent protagonist.

Even with a silent protagonist they still didn't succeed. It's just as much about how npcs react to your race as it is about the way your protagonist speaks. Since they're not going to write triple the dialogue for every minor npc and a ton of unique content into the game just to portray the races well I would rather they didn't undermine the setting they created in return for what would amount to a few extra body types for a human protagonist.

It could have been handled better in Origins. Simply because it wasn't doesn't mean it isn't possible.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

First, being human had nothing to do with Hawke and his family getting into Kirkwall. Hawke's family doesn't get into Kirkwall because they were human - they get in because Hawke and his sibling agree to work for a particular group for an entire year. I can see that as being the reason why an elven or a dwarven family would be able to get in.

Second, the Viscount needs Hawke because the Arishok demanded Hawke's presence. No need to be human for the Arishok to prefer Hawke handling the situation.

You keep trying to pick apart given examples, but I'm not really interested in arguing the merits of any particular plothole because like I keep saying they don't even matter. I fully admit that, had the writers been given leeway to smooth over any and all rough edges that may or may not have been created by having an elf or dwarf Hawke, they could have done so. That isn't really the problem; I just gave you a couple of examples because you asked for them.

The real problem is what I said above, that the races are treated differently in a thousand minor and major ways, and the way DA:O did things where after the origin story everyone was treated in basically the same way isn't enough to do a story justice. 

We don't meet a thousand different characters, we meet only a handful of them. Also, if someone needs help and is desperate, I don't think the protagonist being an elf or a mage would be much of an issue. I certainly didn't see elves complaining when Hawke occassionally aided them.

Restraint wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I'm not addressing the lack of an apostate POV, I'm addressing that whether Hawke is a warrior or a rogue, he's still the son of an apostate, he even carries Malcolm's last name. There is no discrimination being felt by [a human] Hawke because of this, despite how the Amell family fell from grace because a mage was born into their family years ago.

You're reading too much into any stigma attributed to being related to a mage. Meredith's sister was a mage iirc, and I remember a quest to return the mage son of a noble family to the circle. Besides Kirkwall isn't supposed to revolve around Hawke's every action. It's not like the second he/she walked into the city every last person there knew or cared about it.

I respectfully disagree. Meredith wasn't the daughter of a mage, and the noble was the scion of a prominent family. It isn't the same thing as being the progeny of a known apostate. In Andrastian society, the children of mages are taken away by the Chantry, unless the parents are Grey Warden mages, and we see two children of Malcolm Hawke walking around the city-state of Kirkwall. Why wouldn't people care that Hawke is the son of Malcolm? Why wouldn't people wonder if Hawke was an apostate like his (or her) father, even if Hawke was a warrior or a rogue (especially since Malcolm used his martial skills to pose as a mercenary throughout the Free Marches)?

Restraint wrote...

Mage Hawke's treatment was incosistent with the game setting but but the non-mage Hawke was done perfectly in my opinion. Bethany being taken away to the circle was done very well and it fit the setting, and also it gave extra weight to act 3 (which is generally considered weak). 

I thought the scene with Bethany was poorly done. Hawke acted inhuman in that scene, simply standing idly by like a piece of furniture. Regardless, Hawke's status as the son of an apostate should have been incorporated into the story, rather than ignored. Even a warrior or a rogue Hawke should have faced discrimination from people for being the scion of an apostate.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...


True, but an elven or a dwarven Hawke can still focus on obtaining wealth regardless. It creates a difference between a human and a dwarven or elven Hawke, but that's pretty much it. An elven Hawke probably couldn't become a noble, but I honestly don't see how Hawke being a noble as a human mattered. Hawke killed things in Act I, Act II, and Act III - he didn't use his status as a noble to do anything. It's why some complain that Hawke was passive - he seemed to wait around for people to ask him to handle things.

I won't contest that. I agree wholeheartedly with it in fact. Hawke's "status" is poorly contrived and damn near worthless in the game.

The only time he will deign to get out of his house is when something forces him into action.

I loved the Dwarven Noble story - even seeing the protagonist telling his second to kill the man who offended him, like it was no big deal. Seeing a merchant faint (simply for talking to the Dwarven Noble). Challenging a man to a duel. I love dwarven politics. That was a fun Origin story.

It was, even with my grievances with playing as a Dwarf Noble it will always be my favorite race and origin to play.

Dwarf Commoner was equally as awesome. The feeling you get when you trounce some of the Proving's finest warriors, when you're a nonexistent piece of scum? It's a great feeling.

My point wasn't focused on the Amell mansion, it was focused on the idea that an elven or a dwarven Hawke could still be in Kirkwall - handling problems, getting money, falling in love - and it wouldn't be a plothole. Is the mansion that integral to the story that every aspect of the narrative would change of it wasn't an issue? I honestly don't think it would, because Hawke is basically fighting people for seven years.

Hmm, fair point. I suppose it would be something to have an Elven protagonist live in the Alienage, and a Dwarven protagonist living in the Merchant's Guild section. But this would require that the maps for Hightown and Lowtown be considerably larger, since they're very tiny.

I remember standing at a certain area of Hightown where I could see another part of it on the other side of Kirkwall's cliffs. The city's noble elite live on the very top of the cliffs. And I thought to myself, "Why couldn't Hightown connect across the gaping chasm to the other side, where the city continued?"

And I do think a human was the best option for the story of DAII. Not the story we were told necessarily, but the story we hoped we would be able to make. When we were being told prior to DAII's release what it would entail, a human protagonist did seem to fit a lot better then an Elven one or a Dwarven one.

Still, had DAII had multiple races and game-changing choices that were wrapped up in-game in a sufficient and believable manner -- as opposed to things like Grace -- then it might've worked nicely. 

The game would've had to have been well-done though. It wasn't. I won't contest that. But saying that multiple races could've been in DAII would've made it worse I think, because then instead of having the Mage aspect tarnished entirely we'd have both the Mage aspect and the race aspect tarnished.
 

Which we know from a codex entry, not because it was integral to the story or even properly addressed in the narrative.

Arguable. There are a few banters IIRC that talk about how Merrill's making some of the nobles angry with what she does. Not necessarily by her having moved in there, but just based on what she's doing in Hightown.

It could have been handled better in Origins. Simply because it wasn't doesn't mean it isn't possible.

THIS.

It definitely could've been handled better. Bioware failed to make races matter in DAO beyond the origin stories. What's worse, they let a massive plot hole remain in the game for Dwarf Nobles.

Restraint wrote...

You're reading too much into any stigma attributed to being related to a mage. Meredith's sister was a mage iirc, and I remember a quest to return the mage son of a noble family to the circle. Besides Kirkwall isn't supposed to revolve around Hawke's every action. It's not like the second he/she walked into the city every last person there knew or cared about it.

Being related to a mage is considered a curse in Andrastian society. A Tranquil was told by his grandmother when he was a child that being related to mages means that you carry a curse in your blood, that you're forever tainted.

And Kirkwall is supposed to revolve around Hawke's actions. Not the moment he arrives, no. But the game was specifically marketed by marketing and the devs that Hawke's choices would shape Kirkwall and the city would react to our choices.

That means divergent paths, different reactions, and everything else that goes along with it. What they did is tantamount to false advertising, if it isn't blatantly so.

You either market the game for what it is or don't market it at all. But you do not tell lies about it so that your sales will crop up.

Restraint wrote...

*stuff about Bethany's capture being well done*

Allow me to say that I strongly disagree with this. Bethany being taken to the Circle by the Templars -- and what subsequently followed in the next two acts -- was not well done.

Kirkwall's Templars' status towards magic dictates that they will overreact when they discover a mage. They should've sent at least 30 -- and at most 50 -- Templars to the Hawke family's doorstep.

This keeps in line with how the Order is depicted, in Act 1 alone.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 07:00 .

[maglalosus]

Race PC selection in DAO2 should be...

Elf
Human
Dwarf
Qunari

[Ambeth]

David Gaider wrote...

I sometimes wish we would post those numbers, too... for the vague pleasure of seeing the fans on these forums confronted with indisputable evidence of just how much in the minority they are. I think there's an impression that some people get that, because everyone else who comes to the forums talks about things like multiple playthroughs, that this is a normal thing.

Of course, with that knowledge comes a fear that their value is thus less because it's not backed up by numbers-- which seem to be really important to some folks, in terms of validation. So it's probably best not to.

I admit, when I saw a chart showing just how few people played as the female Shepard, and then just how few people played as anything other than soldier, I cried.  Partly out of fear that the choices I loved so well could go away from lack of interest from the 'masses' and partly in sheer frustration that so many won't even try something 'different'.

[Teddie Sage]

I personally only want to play as a human being. I don't want to have a dwarf or elf as a main character. I never liked playing anything else than that.