314 réponses à ce sujet

[AkiKishi]

Ambeth wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

I sometimes wish we would post those numbers, too... for the vague pleasure of seeing the fans on these forums confronted with indisputable evidence of just how much in the minority they are. I think there's an impression that some people get that, because everyone else who comes to the forums talks about things like multiple playthroughs, that this is a normal thing.

Of course, with that knowledge comes a fear that their value is thus less because it's not backed up by numbers-- which seem to be really important to some folks, in terms of validation. So it's probably best not to.

I admit, when I saw a chart showing just how few people played as the female Shepard, and then just how few people played as anything other than soldier, I cried.  Partly out of fear that the choices I loved so well could go away from lack of interest from the 'masses' and partly in sheer frustration that so many won't even try something 'different'.

They should try putting the unpopulour stuff as the default option just to see if it's down to players quickstarting skewing the numbers.

[Restraint]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It could have been handled better in Origins. Simply because it wasn't doesn't mean it isn't possible.

We don't meet a thousand different characters, we meet only a handful of them. Also, if someone needs help and is desperate, I don't think the protagonist being an elf or a mage would be much of an issue. I certainly didn't see elves complaining when Hawke occassionally aided them.

I don't think there is some trick involved that Bioware just hadn't figured out for Origins. Either they add a ton of unique dialogue for NPCs and the protagonist and a significant amount of unique story and gameplay content, which would be impractical, or they handle it poorly like in origins.  

I didn't say there has to be a thousand characters, but the vast majority of however many characters are in the next game would have to treat each race differently, as would the story itself if a story arc deals with issues between two races the player could potentially be playing. What if DA3 has an elf uprising in the game's major city? It requires either a ton of resources or a bad story to make both elf and human protagonists work for that arc. 

I respectfully disagree. Meredith wasn't the daughter of a mage, and the noble was the scion of a prominent family. It isn't the same thing as being the progeny of a known apostate. In Andrastian society, the children of mages are taken away by the Chantry, unless the parents are Grey Warden mages, and we see two children of Malcolm Hawke walking around the city-state of Kirkwall. Why wouldn't people care that Hawke is the son of Malcolm? Why wouldn't people wonder if Hawke was an apostate like his (or her) father, even if Hawke was a warrior or a rogue (especially since Malcolm used his martial skills to pose as a mercenary throughout the Free Marches)?

Since when is Malcolm the most famous man in Thedas? You make me wonder how he managed to stay an apostate if every last person in the world knew the minutiae of his life and family tree. Besides as far as I can tell they take away the children of circle mages because the mages are prisoners, not because the children are tainted or anything. Wynne's kid for example was apparently taken to a chantry orphanage and later joined the templars.

Thedas lore isn't my hobby or anything, I mostly just play the games. Since they didn't give off a "Sins of the father" vibe I don't have any trouble believing there isn't a major stigma attached to being a mage's child.

I thought the scene with Bethany was poorly done. Hawke acted inhuman in that scene, simply standing idly by like a piece of furniture. Regardless, Hawke's status as the son of an apostate should have been incorporated into the story, rather than ignored. Even a warrior or a rogue Hawke should have faced discrimination from people for being the scion of an apostate.

I played femhawke and though it's been a while it felt to me more like she was forcing herself not to react because Bethany told her not to do anything. I felt like she was burning with rage and would have been more than willing to throw down with cullen and company if it wouldn't have endangered her family, and for the remaining four or so years of the story her main motivation was to free bethany from the templars.

[YohkoOhno]

What I find fascinating is that people are somewhat complaining about the "metrics" approach, and yet when it comes to ME3, there's a loud set of fans saying "games are NOT art" and asking for changes based on their "majority opinion".

Can't have it both ways...

[Restraint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Being related to a mage is considered a curse in Andrastian society. A Tranquil was told by his grandmother when he was a child that being related to mages means that you carry a curse in your blood, that you're forever tainted.

And Kirkwall is supposed to revolve around Hawke's actions. Not the moment he arrives, no. But the game was specifically marketed by marketing and the devs that Hawke's choices would shape Kirkwall and the city would react to our choices.

That means divergent paths, different reactions, and everything else that goes along with it. What they did is tantamount to false advertising, if it isn't blatantly so.

You either market the game for what it is or don't market it at all. But you do not tell lies about it so that your sales will crop up.

Allow me to say that I strongly disagree with this. Bethany being taken to the Circle by the Templars -- and what subsequently followed in the next two acts -- was not well done.

Kirkwall's Templars' status towards magic dictates that they will overreact when they discover a mage. They should've sent at least 30 -- and at most 50 -- Templars to the Hawke family's doorstep.

This keeps in line with how the Order is depicted, in Act 1 alone.

Well we have different views on how well the game was done in general, but for me losing Bethany to the circle was emotionally engaging and made act 3 and by extension the overarching plot relevant. 

There's a difference between having Kirkwall react to your actions and having every last person supposedly living out their own lives in a major city hang on your every word and gesture. I'm not saying Bioware did the former well but the latter just makes the world feel tiny and is a pretty narcissistic way to design a main character. All I meant was that in act 1 you're just another lowtown refugee and in act 2 you're a wealthy and noble novelty who quickly gains political importance due to the qunari and later by being champion. Nowhere in that arc do I see a point where people would both take notice of Hawke and have the stones to insult him about his parentage.

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 07:39 .

[AkiKishi]

You can't help but laugh (and not in a good way) when you are throwing about Blood Magic in the streets and no one cares but once you get into dialogue everyone is hunting Blood Mages.
In BG II you use magic openly in the streets and you get consequences.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

BobSmith101 wrote...

You can't help but laugh (and not in a good way) when you are throwing about Blood Magic in the streets and no one cares but once you get into dialogue everyone is hunting Blood Mages.
In BG II you use magic openly in the streets and you get consequences.

And yet Irenicus' gets away with "I will take this woman prisoner because she did it" when He attacked the PC's party first. As for the PC, he can get away with screwing over a group of novice adventurers, who just happen to be able to rewind time (Save Reload).

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thing is though that an Elven protagonist wouldn't be able to acquire an estate in Hightown. The nobles wouldn't allow such a thing to occur.

Not officially, but it doesn't stop an elf from actually living in an estate in Kirkwall. Say hello, Fenris.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 mars 2012 - 07:48 .

[TEWR]

Restraint wrote...

Well we have different views on how well the game was done in general, but for me losing Bethany to the circle was emotionally engaging and made act 3 and by extension the overarching plot relevant. 

It would've been emotionally engaging for me if I actually got to visit her and get a few letters from her -- as opposed to one -- in Acts 2 and 3.

I just don't like how the scene of her capture was handled. It just screamed "poorly done" and also took away from my immersion.

When Hawke is presented with two Templars and forced to let Bethany go for no reason at all -- other then Bioware deciding to assume direct control -- after he's slain demons, bandits, corpses, dragons, and ancient horrors in Act 1 alone, well that's just bad.

If there was a platoon of Templars on his doorstep -- the 30-50 I mentioned earlier -- that would be another story. Hawke would've had no choice but to let her go. And if there was an option to attack the Templars anyway, Bethany could've used her magic to keep Hawke from doing anything, with tears streaming down her face.

That would've been emotionally engaging for me when she was caught. Having a very tearful moment where she doesn't want to go to the Circle, but knows she has to whatever it might take -- without killing her brother/sister -- and keeping in touch with the sibling over the years, beyond that one letter.

There's a difference between having Kirkwall react to your actions and having every last person supposedly living out their own lives in a major city hang on your every word and gesture

Has anyone here suggested that people should worship the ground that Hawke walks on? No, not to my knowledge. But our choices should matter. They shouldn't just be pawned off as "LOL that's your choice? Too bad."

A choice mattering doesn't mean that people in Kirkwall go "OMG Hawke ur so awsumz!" But it does mean that Kirkwall should change accordingly because of those choices. People should talk about a recent event -- not necessarily about Hawke, but just having overheard an event with maybe a bit of flair -- or the city should have something happen.

If I help Javaris clear the Wounded Coast of Tal-Vashoth, this should help me not only gain some respect from the Arishok but also hear some things from within the City Guard about how the Wounded Coast is safer these days. About how patrols haven't been killed there that much. I should see Guardsmen patrolling the area.

If I decide to kill the Amaranthine Conspirators, I should be able to ask the Sergeant if the Wardens can help back me up when I want to take back my estate, considering I just rooted out a bunch of assassins that want the Warden Commander -- possibly the Amell mage even -- dead.

If I decide to help the mysterious woman in the Hanged Man, I should be able to ask the same thing as I did in the aforementioned Warden quest, since both deal with the Wardens and I'll have helped them on two occasions.

If I decide to take on Act of Mercy, what I do should lead to a divergent path. And Decimus shouldn't act insane for poorly thought-up reasons. What happens in Act 3 shouldn't be the exact same thing.

Choices should matter. Not to absurd levels -- as I don't think anyone's asked that Hawke should be worshipped -- but they should matter.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Thing is though that an Elven protagonist wouldn't be able to acquire an estate in Hightown. The nobles wouldn't allow such a thing to occur.

Not officially, but it doesn't stop an elf from actually living in an estate in Kirkwall. Say hello, Fenris.

I already addressed that. Danarius' estate is still Danarius', even if it's in ****ty condition. The Amell Manor on the other hand became property of the Viscount once the slavers were forcibly ousted.

Every other estate and manor in the area seems to be owned by someone. They may not be living there, but it's still their property and people would notice if an Elf was coming and going from the house, wearing fine armor and wielding weapons, and not looking like a commoner.

[Restraint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Has anyone here suggested that people should worship the ground that Hawke walks on? No, not to my knowledge. But our choices should matter. They shouldn't just be pawned off as "LOL that's your choice? Too bad."

A choice mattering doesn't mean that people in Kirkwall go "OMG Hawke ur so awsumz!" But it does mean that Kirkwall should change accordingly because of those choices. People should talk about a recent event -- not necessarily about Hawke, but just having overheard an event with maybe a bit of flair -- or the city should have something happen.

That is in effect what was suggested in the post I was originally responding to. The idea that Hawke would have been stigmatized as the child of a mage by everyone in kirkwall assumes that people in general would know far more about the Hawke family than is reasonable. The more likely scenario is that few knew about it and even fewer gave a damn.

You springboarded from there to talking about Kirkwall being too static, but I don't even really disagree with that so please don't expect me to defend that particular strawman.

[warriorrc]

i cant believe only 15percent picked elf i mean come on were awsome i mean look at our ears [by the way i kind of liked the da2 elves why all the haters?]

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I already addressed that. Danarius' estate is still Danarius', even if it's in ****ty condition. The Amell Manor on the other hand became property of the Viscount once the slavers were forcibly ousted.

So it's simply matter of Amell Manor not becoming property of the Viscount once the slavers are ousted. It's entirely up to the game writer whether it does. As such, it's absolutely not some sort of irremovable obstacle that requires protagonist of certain species.

Every other estate and manor in the area seems to be owned by someone. They may not be living there, but it's still their property and people would notice if an Elf was coming and going from the house, wearing fine armor and wielding weapons, and not looking like a commoner.

Sure, and if they question the elf can respond he's just maintaining the manor for the legal owner. Since the legal owner isn't actually able to show up and deny this claim, it's very much like situation with Fenris. And allowing Fenris to get away with it but demanding the protagonist to be held to different standards feels questionable.

edit: and of course, like mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not like elf Hawke couldn't simply remain in the Alienage instead of getting a manor -- the overall plot of the game doesn't actually hinge on where Hawke hangs his hat.

Modifié par tmp7704, 28 mars 2012 - 08:38 .

[TEWR]

Restraint wrote...

That is in effect what was suggested in the post I was originally responding to. The idea that Hawke would have been stigmatized as the child of a mage by everyone in kirkwall assumes that people in general would know far more about the Hawke family than is reasonable. The more likely scenario is that few knew about it and even fewer gave a damn.

People should know about Hawke being a mage though. At least some of the more key people. People in Darktown and Lowtown -- considering Hawke made a name for himself in the Underworld or with the Red Iron Mercenary band --

You springboarded from there to talking about Kirkwall being too static, but I don't even really disagree with that so please don't expect me to defend that particular strawman.

I thought the issue we were discussing was the lack of choices mattering. Playing as a mage is in fact a choice made by the player. That it doesn't matter at all is in fact relevant, and not a strawman. Kirkwall's static nature is related to the fact that no one reacts to Hawke's magehood or mage blood.

Certain people in Act 1 should've known that Hawke was a mage and reacted to such. Petrice should've known and used Hawke's status as a mage -- or relation to a mage sibling -- to blackmail him/her into silence. When Hawke becomes a noble, there does need to be some recognition that Hawke is a mage. Whether it's condemnation or adoration can vary between the NPCs, but it should be recognized fully by Act 2 and partially in Act 1.

This is all stuff I've gone over before, in threads long since dead. I've no intent to go over it again.

[Wulfram]

Or of course you could have had the Elf protagonist not get the spiffy mansion until later. Though this would require extra work since the cinematics set there would have to be different.

[Maria Caliban]

YohkoOhno wrote...

What I find fascinating is that people are somewhat complaining about the "metrics" approach, and yet when it comes to ME3, there's a loud set of fans saying "games are NOT art" and asking for changes based on their "majority opinion".

Can't have it both ways...

I find it fascinating that people are complaining about a lack of racial options in this thread, and yet in this very forum, there are people who are saying that it's fine to only have a human PC.

It's as though people on the BSN weren't a hive mind, but had a plethora of different opinions.

[Pzykozis]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I thought the issue we were discussing was the lack of choices mattering. Playing as a mage is in fact a choice made by the player. That it doesn't matter at all is in fact relevant, and not a strawman. Kirkwall's static nature is related to the fact that no one reacts to Hawke's magehood or mage blood.

Certain people in Act 1 should've known that Hawke was a mage and reacted to such. Petrice should've known and used Hawke's status as a mage -- or relation to a mage sibling -- to blackmail him/her into silence. When Hawke becomes a noble, there does need to be some recognition that Hawke is a mage. Whether it's condemnation or adoration can vary between the NPCs, but it should be recognized fully by Act 2 and partially in Act 1.

This is all stuff I've gone over before, in threads long since dead. I've no intent to go over it again.

Hmm the problem I see with this stuff though is that, if you create all sorts of additional content for the mages then to a certain extent the other playthroughs feel like.. well like the red haired stepchild, if theres extra content specifically for Mages it would kind of need to be mirrored across the classes which is a lot of extra work. I belive it was said they were interested in perhaps doing stuff like this going forward though so perhaps it'll happen. I'd love t see a less static world though, it is something I want t see more of in the next gen stuff.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

So it's simply matter of Amell Manor not becoming property of the Viscount once the slavers are ousted. It's entirely up to the game writer whether it does. As such, it's absolutely not some sort of irremovable obstacle that requires protagonist of certain species.

I don't really know what happened to property in medieval times when it wasn't owned, so I can't comment on whether or not it's believable for property to not have fallen under the Viscount's ownership.

Sure, and if they question the elf can respond he's just maintaining the manor for the legal owner. Since the legal owner isn't actually able to show up and deny this claim, it's very much like situation with Fenris. And allowing Fenris to get away with it but demanding the protagonist to be held to different standards feels questionable.

No one would be fooled by an Elf that's wearing unique armor and carrying weapons saying he's just "maintaining" the house. It would seem more like he's robbing an empty house.

Fenris is only able to live in Danarius' mansion because of Aveline's intervention and his connection to Hawke. He doesn't "just" live there and get away with it. After the Deep Roads, people began noticing him and told the City Guard, which prompted everything that happened.

edit: and of course, like mentioned earlier in the thread, it's not like elf Hawke couldn't simply remain in the Alienage instead of getting a manor -- the overall plot of the game doesn't actually hinge on where Hawke hangs his hat.

That's what I thought of too. It could happen at least until the Elven PC is named Champion, where he could then acquire the estate.

I maintain though that DAII's intended story works best using a Human only protagonist, but this shouldn't be the standard for subsequent games.

I've said it before and I'll say it once more: Since the DA series is about Thedas, I view the series as shifting between who the protagonist will be in terms of race:

1) Race:
2) Set Race
3) Race
4) Race
5) Set Race
6) Race
7) Set Race
8) Set Race

and so on and so forth. Obviously, I don't know how Bioware will make the protagonist for DA3. But that's how I view the general idea of the series.

Pzykosis wrote...

Hmm the problem I see with this stuff though is that, if you create all sorts of additional content for the mages then to a certain extent the other playthroughs feel like.. well like the red haired stepchild, if theres extra content specifically for Mages it would kind of need to be mirrored across the classes which is a lot of extra work. I belive it was said they were interested in perhaps doing stuff like this going forward though so perhaps it'll happen. I'd love t see a less static world though, it is something I want t see more of in the next gen stuff.

That depneds on how we view and define extra content though, doesn't it? Extra content -- from how I've seen it used -- means extra quests.

But a Mage PC does need some sort of recognition. I don't see that as extra content, but more in line with the game's lore. DAO had the Mage PC recognized as a mage by some NPCs. Sometimes the Mage could actually reveal that he was a mage.

DAII had that latter one only one time: To Feynriel. I'm not saying that Hawke should've revealed that he was a mage to every Tom, Dick, and Harry; but he should've been recognized as a mage by people. Templars especially.

Again though, it's stuff I've long since gone over and have no intent of going in depth about what I mean. It would require me posting paragraphs and paragraphs of stuff.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 08:55 .

[Restraint]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

People should know about Hawke being a mage though. At least some of the more key people. People in Darktown and Lowtown -- considering Hawke made a name for himself in the Underworld or with the Red Iron Mercenary band --

I thought the issue we were discussing was the lack of choices mattering. Playing as a mage is in fact a choice made by the player. That it doesn't matter at all is in fact relevant, and not a strawman. Kirkwall's static nature is related to the fact that no one reacts to Hawke's magehood or mage blood.

Certain people in Act 1 should've known that Hawke was a mage and reacted to such. Petrice should've known and used Hawke's status as a mage -- or relation to a mage sibling -- to blackmail him/her into silence. When Hawke becomes a noble, there does need to be some recognition that Hawke is a mage. Whether it's condemnation or adoration can vary between the NPCs, but it should be recognized fully by Act 2 and partially in Act 1.

This is all stuff I've gone over before, in threads long since dead. I've no intent to go over it again.

Again I agree about how Hawke being a mage shouldn't have been irrelevant, and have even said so several times in this thread. Being related to a mage is different, however. Unless someone is handing out pamphlets with the Hawke family tree and a diatribe against people related to mages there is no reason anyone would know or care. That's what was brought up as a kind of reason for including other races as protagonist in DA2, which is what I was responding to. 

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I don't really know what happened to property in medieval times when it was empty, so I can't comment on whether or not it's believable for property to not fall under the Viscount's ownership.

In fictional settings the believable is what the writer says is.

No one would be fooled by an Elf that's wearing unique armor and carrying weapons saying he's just "maintaining" the house. It would seem more like he's robbing an empty house.

Fenris is only able to live in Danarius' mansion because of Aveline's intervention and his connection to Hawke.

If Fenris is able to live in Danarius' mansion because of Aveline's intervention and his connection to Hawke, then there's absolutely no reason why Hawke shouldn't be able to do the same -- as Aveline is equally able to intervene on Hawke's behalf and well, Hawke's connection to Hawke is even stronger than Fenris'

[TEWR]

Again I agree about how Hawke being a mage shouldn't have been irrelevant, and have even said so several times in this thread. Being related to a mage is different, however. Unless someone is handing out pamphlets with the Hawke family tree and a diatribe against people related to mages there is no reason anyone would know or care. That's what was brought up as a kind of reason for including other races as protagonist in DA2, which is what I was responding to.

Fair enough. I apologize if it seemed that I came off as saying you were saying the Mage class shouldn't be totally irrelevant. That was not my intention.

I agree that it shouldn't be made known to everyone in Act 1, but it should've been partially known at that time and fully known by Act 2 and Act 3. And there does need to be condemnation and adoration both, from various NPCs.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

Pzykozis wrote...

Hmm the problem I see with this stuff though is that, if you create all sorts of additional content for the mages then to a certain extent the other playthroughs feel like.. well like the red haired stepchild, if theres extra content specifically for Mages it would kind of need to be mirrored across the classes which is a lot of extra work. I belive it was said they were interested in perhaps doing stuff like this going forward though so perhaps it'll happen. I'd love t see a less static world though, it is something I want t see more of in the next gen stuff.

I suggested once that BioWare just make Hawke a mage. As Hawke was raised outside of the Circle, it would have made sense for her to have mage skills and regular skills.

Instead of Mage, Warrior, Rogue for the PC, you could play a mage who focuses on magic, a mage who's focused on martial pursuits, and a mage who's into lockpicking, sneaking, and using daggers.

That way, they could focus on the mage vs templar problem from the start without feeling as though they're excluding certain classes.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...


In fictional settings the believable is what the writer says is.

Ehh... that's not really entirely valid. If the writer says that you can jump 70 feet on a setting that shares Earth's physics, then the believable isn't what the writer said.

But that's irrelevant and I digress.

I guess it doesn't matter whether the property became the Viscount's or not. I imagine that's the law of Kirkwall though, and can't be argued against.

If Fenris is able to live in Danarius' mansion because of Aveline's intervention and his connection to Hawke, then there's absolutely no reason why Hawke shouldn't be able to do the same -- as Aveline is equally able to intervene on Hawke's behalf and well, Hawke's connection to Hawke is even stronger than Fenris'

Aveline's already drawing enough suspicion from people for deflecting the Guardsmen near Fenris' "house". To do the same for another section of the city would mean she'd be under intense scrutiny.


Fenris: It feels good to be captain of the guard, yes?
Aveline: No, I will not change the patrols around your mansion again. There's already been too many questions.
Fenris: You wound my pride with such accusations.
Aveline: But you were going to ask.
Fenris: Eventually.
Aveline: (Laughs) I'll look at the roster and see what I can do.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 mars 2012 - 09:10 .

[Restraint]

 

Maria Caliban wrote...

I suggested once that BioWare just make Hawke a mage. As Hawke was raised outside of the Circle, it would have made sense for her to have mage skills and regular skills.  

Instead of Mage, Warrior, Rogue for the PC, you could play a mage who focuses on magic, a mage who's focused on martial pursuits, and a mage who's into lockpicking, sneaking, and using daggers.

That way, they could focus on the mage vs templar problem from the start without feeling as though they're excluding certain classes.

 

I've daydreamed about that myself. It could have had really interesting story and non-combat gameplay implications and like you said the combat difference would have been easy to make up by bringing back Arcane Warrior and creating some name for a roguish mage.

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 09:12 .

[Maria Caliban]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Aveline's already drawing enough suspicion from people for deflecting the Guardsmen near Fenris' "house". To do the same for another section of the city would mean she'd be under intense scrutiny.

The previous Captain was sending guards into death-traps in order to deliver messages to bandits but no one caught on until Aveline and Hawke appeared. NPCs are stupid and incapable. Intense scrutiny is probably someone coming by once a week and asking, "So Aveline, doing anything corrupt or negligent lately? No? Carry on then!"

[Wulfram]

Who wants to live with all those damn Shem, anyway?

I reckon I could live quite happily in Merrill's house. Well, as long we could get the Eluvian to give us broadband internet.