314 réponses à ce sujet

[Unknown_Warrior]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

I just KNEW people were going to bring up Link after this, and thank you for earning me a buck from a bet I made.

You said something absurd and just KNEW someone would disagree with simple, well-known example? Your grasp of human psychology is impressive.

But they're not relevant.
The fact is, people are most likely not as emotionally invested in a non-human than they are in a human. While many here would beg to differ, that's simply how it works. Non-human characters work well in non-serious settings because you're not meant to reflect on them emotionally.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wouldn't the most cost-effective method of expanding race options with a voiced protagonist be to link accents to location - that would remain fixed across said options - and not race?

Since the latter is, you know, stupid?

Even people with the same accent have different voices.

Unknown_Warrior wrote...


The fact is, people are most likely not as emotionally invested in a non-human than they are in a human. While many here would beg to differ, that's simply how it works. Non-human characters work well in non-serious settings because you're not meant to reflect on them emotionally.

When Bambi's mother died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. When Simba's father died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. If they couldn't connect to non-humans emotionally, I wonder why they cried.

You need to refine that premise because human identification and empathy with non-humans is rather well documented. And by non-humans, I mean animals and inanimate objects, not just humanoid dwarves and elves.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 26 mars 2012 - 06:50 .

[Pzykozis]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wouldn't the most cost-effective method of expanding race options with a voiced protagonist be to link accents to location - that would remain fixed across said options - and not race?

Since the latter is, you know, stupid?

Even people with the same accent have different voices.

To be fair to all intents and purposes only one person exists per game with the same voice in the event of all male / female PCs sharing the same voice.

I'd really enjoy having the dwarves back but at the same time they are the least liked and understand that I'd rather have other things than the ability to choose race again, especially from the art team. Though I still dream of having a dwarven monk.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Wouldn't the most cost-effective method of expanding race options with a voiced protagonist be to link accents to location - that would remain fixed across said options - and not race?

Since the latter is, you know, stupid?

Even people with the same accent have different voices.

That's not what I'm getting at.

Only one protagonist can exist in the world at any given time, as a consequence, there will never be two individuals in the universe of a game implementing this hypothetical solution sharing a voice.

However, it would allow a city elf, casteless dwarf, and a human to come from the same place - say, Kirkwall, or wherever - to end up sounding the same way.  In other words, it'd let them re-use the same audio and cost fewer zots.

A race-based accent system not only makes no sense, it would mean recording dialog with appropriate accents for each racial group.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 26 mars 2012 - 06:51 .

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not what I'm getting at.

A diplomatic edit.

For what it's worth, I agree with you, but am not sure the player-base at large would view it as an acceptable compromise. We'd likely hear how BioWare is lazy because it only went for one voice actor for all the races.

[Merci357]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

But they're not relevant.
The fact is, people are most likely not as emotionally invested in a non-human than they are in a human. While many here would beg to differ, that's simply how it works. Non-human characters work well in non-serious settings because you're not meant to reflect on them emotionally.

I'm not an elf, right, but I'm not a mage either, and come invested in playing one. I can become emotionally invested in playing the opposite gender. And - at least for me - playing as another race is no different, in fact I enjoy playing the supposed "underdog" race. So, in my view, nun-human (but humanoid) characters work very well - but not for everyone.

That said, I'm perfectly fine with a voice that is shared between different races. I can think of plenty of reasons why an elf would have the same accents as a human, and I think David can as well. The problem is, race choice makes only sense if the game at least sometimes acknowledges your choice, and that is definitely extra work. I can only wish the added benefit (replayability, for once) outweights the additional cost.

Modifié par Merci357, 26 mars 2012 - 06:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

That's not what I'm getting at.

A diplomatic edit.

Heh, indeed.

Maria Caliban wrote... 

For what it's worth, I agree with you, but am not sure the player-base at large would view it as an acceptable compromise. We'd likely hear how BioWare is lazy because it only went for one voice actor for all the races.

They're going to hear that they're lazy no matter what they do because BioWare is in a lose-lose situation when it comes to how their games will be perceived regardless.  

Still, if they want to do more with less, this seems like a reasonable approach.

[Unknown_Warrior]

Maria Caliban wrote...
When Bambi's mother died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. When Simba's father died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. If they couldn't connect to non-humans emotionally, I wonder why they cried.

You need to refine that premise because human identification and empathy with non-humans is rather well documented. And by non-humans, I mean animals and inanimate objects, not just humanoid dwarves and elves.

Never said that non-humans don't invoke empathy. Answer me this, would Disney still make Bambi if it was a human child whose mother was shot dead? Would Disney still make The Lion King if it was a kid who lost his dad? Never wondered why it was never the movies with human protagonists that dealt with death?

Remember, I do not say that Bambi's mother and Simba's father wasn't sad, but people don't look at these characters and reflect themselves on them. They look through a filter.

That's the same with most games. Playing as a non-human feels disconnecting and disjointed for most. Me included, I could never be immersed in a game where I didn't play as a human, every time I play a non-human I feel more like a puppeteer rather than transcended form of myself.

[Xewaka]

I doubt they'll give multiple race choice, for a simple reason: Cinematics. Different skeletons and frames would make for either a lot of extra work or a lot of hilariously awkward dorf poses.

[ianvillan]

This is another system the voiced character has taken from the game.

A voiced character makes it difficult for some players to roleplay there characters, it brings in the paraphrasing of dialogue because they say people dont like to read the lines then hear them said aloud, It take more money to hire the voice actors that could be better spent on the game, and it also takes the choose of race away because you cant have the same voice for different races.

Yes I know that voiced character is not the only reason for all the above but it is one of the main contributers to them but cinematic story telling is a reason for alot of chooses and roleplaying opportunities being taken from the game.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

They're going to hear that they're lazy no matter what they do because BioWare is in a lose-lose situation when it comes to how their games will be perceived regardless.

I wonder how often the developers think just that while making Important Decisions™ for the game.

[Tom12]

David Gaider wrote...

syllogi wrote...
It's pity; it's something most people want

I think that if one were to ask a fan "do you want more options?" the answer would always be yes-- regardless of the cost. Cost is not an issue to a fan, and neither should it be. We, of course, have no such luxury.

The difference here is that the fans see that they had three race options in DAO and only one in DA2... and thus that's less, and thus inferior, with the trade-off being not in evidence or simply not being worth it in their eyes. Which is a fair comparison, it being a sequel and all. There's no inherent benefit to race selection itself insofar as it being an RPG goes, so long as there are customization options (either in the story or in chargen)-- whether there's enough such options is really the trick, and on that front we'll be talking more once we have stuff to show.

i just missed to play as an elf, i would also be happy if da3 would have an elf set as the protagonist....

Modifié par Tom12, 26 mars 2012 - 07:20 .

[Pzykozis]

Tom12 wrote...

i just missed to play as an elf, i would also be happy if da3 would have an elf set as the protagonist....

Which is probably why a set human character is a good idea instead of set X, personally whilst I've dallied with the elven options in DA:O I can think of few things I'd enjoy less in a DA game than to be forced into an elven character.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 26 mars 2012 - 07:38 .

[Wulfram]

An Elf protagonist would probably have been more of a possibility if they'd been kept more human and more conventionally attractive.

[Joseph627]

Wulfram wrote...

An Elf protagonist would probably have been more of a possibility if they'd been kept more human and more conventionally attractive.

Agree completely, i would have actually like playing as an elf protagonist but not if they would look like the elves from da2.

[David Gaider]

Joseph627 wrote...
Agree completely, i would have actually like playing as an elf protagonist but not if they would look like the elves from da2.

It's probably worth mentioning that elves were only played by 15% (or less? I don't remember the exact number) of DAO players... as in ever. Meaning only 15% even tried the elven origins on one of their playthroughs.

Which is not to say the new elven look in DA2 would make it more or less popular, if offered... or anything, really, other than that the DAO elves were not inherently popular options to begin with.

I think this is one of those places where the telemetry doesn't lie. Race options are very popular with a smaller group of players-- to them, the expense is totally worth it. But the vast majority of players will only pick humans, even when options are offered. Whether there's any value to those people that such options exist, even if not taken, is the only intangible element in the equation (and should probably not be underestimated).

Modifié par David Gaider, 26 mars 2012 - 07:38 .

[eyesofastorm]

David Gaider wrote...

Joseph627 wrote...
Agree completely, i would have actually like playing as an elf protagonist but not if they would look like the elves from da2.

It's probably worth mentioning that elves were only played by 15% (or less? I don't remember the exact number) of DAO players... as in ever. Meaning only 15% even tried the elven origins on one of their playthroughs.

Which is not to say the new elven look in DA2 would make it more or less popular, if offered... or anything, really, other than that the DAO elves were not inherently popular options to begin with.

I think this is one of those places where the telemetry doesn't lie. Race options are very popular with a smaller group of players-- to them, the expense is totally worth it. But the vast majority of players will only pick humans, even when options are offered. Whether there's any value to those people that such options exist, even if not taken, is the only intangible element in the equation (and should probably not be underestimated).

You know one of the things I LOVED about Morrowind?  You could use bows, crossbows, throwing knives... hell, even throwing stars.  I only ever used the bow and even that very rarely.  But the throwing stars in that game made me love it.  

[WardenWade]

David Gaider wrote...

syllogi wrote...
It's pity; it's something most people want

I think that if one were to ask a fan "do you want more options?" the answer would always be yes-- regardless of the cost. Cost is not an issue to a fan, and neither should it be. We, of course, have no such luxury.

The difference here is that the fans see that they had three race options in DAO and only one in DA2... and thus that's less, and thus inferior, with the trade-off being not in evidence or simply not being worth it in their eyes. Which is a fair comparison, it being a sequel and all. There's no inherent benefit to race selection itself insofar as it being an RPG goes, so long as there are customization options (either in the story or in chargen)-- whether there's enough such options is really the trick, and on that front we'll be talking more once we have stuff to show.

Thank you for adding to this discussion!  To clarify, as regards the bolded portion do you mean that concerning the role-playing medium itself it is less important, in your estimation, what race you are, but that this option could still return in DA3 as a customization point of character creation or plot, in some manner?  Some people have suggested that races might be tied to specific backgrounds/classes (city elf rogue/thief, and so on...), for example...would that be similar to what you might consider a story-based customization option, if it is not too soon to ask something like that? 

Thank you for your input on this, David.

Modifié par WardenWade, 26 mars 2012 - 08:33 .

[esper]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
When Bambi's mother died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. When Simba's father died, I found myself in a theater full of bawling children. If they couldn't connect to non-humans emotionally, I wonder why they cried.

You need to refine that premise because human identification and empathy with non-humans is rather well documented. And by non-humans, I mean animals and inanimate objects, not just humanoid dwarves and elves.

Never said that non-humans don't invoke empathy. Answer me this, would Disney still make Bambi if it was a human child whose mother was shot dead? Would Disney still make The Lion King if it was a kid who lost his dad? Never wondered why it was never the movies with human protagonists that dealt with death?

Remember, I do not say that Bambi's mother and Simba's father wasn't sad, but people don't look at these characters and reflect themselves on them. They look through a filter.

That's the same with most games. Playing as a non-human feels disconnecting and disjointed for most. Me included, I could never be immersed in a game where I didn't play as a human, every time I play a non-human I feel more like a puppeteer rather than transcended form of myself.

Proberly not considering they even made Robin Hood into animals... That being said Disney idea's are rarely their own. They pick some story and then disney-fy it, original stories of their can be counted on less than one hand (at least when it comes to the cartoons).

[_Em_]

How about this: the protagonist lives in an alienage with his/her mother who's an elf. The father is whatever race you choose to play as (and is dead or maybe some story could be added to it). So basically you would play as half-elf. But the character will look like the race you choose (lore). One voice actor would then suffice (maybe with some effect for a dwarf).

[Worrywort]

You guys are playing the game wrong if you care more about what your character looks like rather than what is happening in the world surrounding the character.

[Wulfram]

This website which tracks achievements suggests about the same number of people completed the Dalish origin as, say, romanced Morrigan. And almost double the number who romanced Alistair.

(Of course, people who register for that website probably care about achievements more than the average player, and it's only Xbox and there are probably a few other reasons to take this stuff with a pinch of salt.)

[ShadyKat]

So is this one of those,"Most people play only as humans" kind of things? Because many people love to play Call of Duty, and many hate it. Just saying that options are a good thing. Many people hate playing as humans when given the option not to.



So only 15% of people played as elves in DAO, and probably 10% or less played as dwarves. That's still 25% or more of the few millions of people that purchased Origins. That's a larger number then you make it sound like.

[Deviija]

Worrywort wrote...

You guys are playing the game wrong if you care more about what your character looks like rather than what is happening in the world surrounding the character.

Right, because appearance and customization has nothing to do with roleplaying in a roleplaying game. 

[Lord Gremlin]

Worrywort wrote...

You guys are playing the game wrong if you care more about what your character looks like rather than what is happening in the world surrounding the character.

I buy Final Fantasy games for that. Always delightfully insane story and world full of change.