314 réponses à ce sujet

[Sutekh]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

Name me some really popular games (that means both good sales figures and good reviews) with a forced non-human PC with a Mature or older rating. Don't worry. I'll wait.

Menzoberranzan?

That's an old, old game, granted. But it got good reviews at the time, was popular in the RPG niche and sold well, considering. And it's an RPG 

Anyway, since we won't have races (not even if I throw a temper tantrum and threaten people and all, so I'll just refrain), I'd like to have at least different cultural backgrounds to play with. Various nationalities and social origins would be very nice.

[slyborg]

I think having the different races adds more to replay-abilty than anything else, whether or not the game designers see that as a benefit or could care less.

In DA:O, I appreciated seeing the little differences during each play through with each race (like people assuming my Elf warden was a servant or a human noble being the only one who could marry Alistair). It helped put you into that role and reminded me of Thedas' diversity.

This is what I want to see in the DA series, but not everyone may care about those differences, so it will be up to the development team to decide if it is important enough to bring back into the game.

[Direwolf0294]

I really, really hope they let you play as an elf in DA3. Playing as a non human in a primarily human centered world and story is really interesting. I loved all the race specific dialogue that popped up during Origins.

Also, speaking of Origins, it's a little disheartening to read how few people did the elf origins in DA:O. The city elf origin was probably the most interesting origin, especially if you were a female character.

Something else that's disheartening is that reading posts by BioWare it seems like they're not going to include any origin stories in DA3. The origins were probably my favourite part of DA:O and it's sad we most likely wont be seeing them again. At the very least I hope they allow us to choose a backstory like you can in Mass Effect even if you can't play through it.

[Mike_Neel]

Well a lot of people do their first playthrough as a self insert, which will be human. Taking into account that there's statistics that show most people never bother finishing a game, I would imagine a lot of those orginal human origin players bought the game, played it for a few hours, and probably shelved it or took it back to gamestop and moved on.

It'd be incredibaly rude of me to say those fans/consumers don't count, but I think core and more dedicated fans who happen to be the minority in this case are also the group most likely to reward bioware far more than those people that just dipped their toes into the game. This includes DLC purchasing, forum passion (both good and the bad) and of course the all mighty preorder of the next title.

So please don't be quick to discredit those of us that do want multiple races in the game. We're also the ones that will keep sticking with you throughout the games life span and most likely aren't going to be the ones selling our copies used.

[Genshie]

David Gaider wrote...

Great_Horn wrote...
So only 480.000 players have shown interest in the both elves origins (15 %). Is there some data about the distribution? I would assume that more player would have picked the Dalish then the city elf origin.

Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far.

*Points to avatar* Yep, I am one of those peeps. (Although since there are Dalish mages I never understood why you couldn't give that option though) I tried all the origins though. My gawd though the dwarf noble origin though on Nightmare difficulty is freaken ridiculous though to the point where the other origins were cake walks.

[Imrahil_]

David Gaider wrote...
It's probably worth mentioning that elves were only played by 15% (or less? I don't remember the exact number) of DAO players... as in ever. Meaning only 15% even tried the elven origins on one of their playthroughs.

So roughly 650,000 people played as an elf.  And, that's a small number?  What you're overlooking, I think, is that those "small" numbers add up.

If 15% played as an elf & even a third won't buy a game that won't let them play as an elf, you've lost 5% of your customers, or around 225,000 customers.  But that's not the only thing you cut.

If 5% like Dwarves & a third won't play a game without Dwarves, you've now written off another 75,000 customers.  If merely 2% didn't buy DA2 because they couldn't play a Dual-wielding Warrior, you lost another 90,000.  Iconic look costs you X%, Voiced costs you Y%.  Repeating dungeons costs you Z%.  Crossbows, Warrior Archers, Arcane Warrior.  If each one is only 1% lost, because only 3% used them, they add up to 135,000 in lost sales.

All these "little" drops of 200,000 here, 135,000 or 50,000 there, that are so easy to write off because "only 15% even use that option!" add up.  They add up to about 2.5 million I believe.

I think this is one of those places where the telemetry doesn't lie.

You're right about that, but I believe it's one of those places where it's horribly misinterpreted.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 27 mars 2012 - 12:47 .

[Circle_Mage]

Direwolf0294 wrote...

I really, really hope they let you play as an elf in DA3. Playing as a non human in a primarily human centered world and story is really interesting. I loved all the race specific dialogue that popped up during Origins.

Also, speaking of Origins, it's a little disheartening to read how few people did the elf origins in DA:O. The city elf origin was probably the most interesting origin, especially if you were a female character.

Something else that's disheartening is that reading posts by BioWare it seems like they're not going to include any origin stories in DA3. The origins were probably my favourite part of DA:O and it's sad we most likely wont be seeing them again. At the very least I hope they allow us to choose a backstory like you can in Mass Effect even if you can't play through it.

I too hope that there is the option to play as an elf, or a dwarf, in DA3.  If Thedas is indeed the main character in the Dragon Age series, what better way to explore it then through it its many and varied races?  A qunari option would be neat, too.  For my part, I always play a human female mage, but I feel that "mage" is a different race from human, so I support multiple races and I do hope that players are allowed a variety of racial options in DA3.  I know that Biowae only has so many resources availble, but honestly I'd be wiling to sacrifice something like more armor options if races could be present aagin.  It's true that the random race specific dialogue in the game made it both entertaining and interesting; it was like a window into another world.  I'm human all the time, why wouldn't I want to be something else in a fantasy world?

Although I haven't played the Tabris origin myself, one of my siblings is devoted to male Tabris, and thus I've come to appreciate it too.  I think city elf origin has more complexity and moral dilemmas then the more straight-forward Mahariel storyline. 

The ability to at least choose a backstory for your character, if not an origin or race, would be something.  Better than no origin at all, I suppose. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

David Gaider wrote...

Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far. Then the city elf, then the dalish. Don't remember the distribution, sorry, just that city elf and dalish were both well behind. All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

3%.  That is a gorram tragedy.  Dorf Noble and City Elf were the most interesting origins.  Also, having someone speak to the commoners for me was the biggest laugh I got in the whole game.  I could not stop giggling. 


It seems (to me!) the easiest method of offering multiple races would be to constrain the starting social class or origin of the PC.  I mean... there's a difference between "human servent" and "elfy servent" but not that much of a difference.  IIRC, in places like Orlais, there can be almost no difference because that place is like a Lady Gaga video 24/7.  The difference between human, elfy, and dorf merchents would be even less.  Either their wealthy, doing ok, or stugggling and their surroundings would reflect that, regardless of their race.  There would be differences in how characters react to the different races, but that seems like it would be less of a stress than having to design maps and surroundings for each racial origin. 

Still, offer me the chance to play a non-human, and I'll be playing an elf mage chick.  There's a folder on my C: drive that would explain it all, but no civilized conversation can come from that topic.

[jmd4]

Worrywort wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

That is really unfortunate because imo the dwarf commoner origin is the best by far. I absolutely love the part where the dwarf commoner takes of Everd's helmet and shows everyone is the arena that a castless dwarf bested them all.

I agree on the Brosca origin--and Aeducan was excellent too, in my opinion, one of the best origins. I think this is a terrible shame but I don't think it's necessarily indicative of anyone not liking the Origins dwarves or the idea of playing a dwarf, per se, it's more likely that, at first blush, the dwarves seem the least connected to major events and thus the least important (which isn't the case at all). I think it's a lack of investigation into the dwarven origins that caused some of this rather than any real flaws in those origins, because both Aeducan and Brosca were great. People looked at the human origins and just settled on them for the most part, to get the "best" experience, I think, and because playing a human is natural. Also, I think a lot of players looked on dwarves with a knee-jerk reaction that they were fat, stumpy, walking beards based on depictions of dwarves in other games, books, fantasy worlds, etc., at least in Origins (not so much in DA2, where they actually did look awful). People got turned off by dwarf bias, I think.

Truly a lot of people missed out on some great dwarven adventuring. But this doesn't mean, as others have said, that the option shouldn't exist just because some didn't take to it. I don't like the idea of making do with less just because other folks didn't care to try something new. Less is rarely better, especially if we aren't getting anything to compensate for the loss.

Modifié par jmd4, 27 mars 2012 - 01:01 .

[Circle_Mage]

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unknown_Warrior wrote...
Human player characters has proven more profitable, games with forced non-human PC have been linked with a decrease in sales.

It's true. Like that 'Link' series with the elf boy? I think that came out in 1986 and promptly bombed. Pretty sure they never even managed a sequel.

And what about that stupid game staring a hedgehog? I mean, lol, a hedgehog? I bet whomever came up with that is in the poor house now.

I just KNEW people were going to bring up Link after this, and thank you for earning me a buck from a bet I made.
The fact is: do they target the same audience?
In simpler games, a furry/non-human mascot works, as they're easily identifyable and ooze family friendliness (not to mention: the Merch). In mature "one wrong move could mean genocide", they don't work.

Name me some really popular games (that means both good sales figures and good reviews) with a forced non-human PC with a Mature or older rating. Don't worry. I'll wait.

*hesitantly*  Does the Devil May Cry series count?  Dante is only half human and Nero isn't fully human either, if I recall correctly.  Those games have done quite well.

[Zzulu2]

I liked my femHawke, really. I do not wish to play another generic silent protagonist just so people can play with different player models

[jmd4]

Circle_Mage wrote...

Unknown_Warrior wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Unknown_Warrior wrote...
Human player characters has proven more profitable, games with forced non-human PC have been linked with a decrease in sales.

It's true. Like that 'Link' series with the elf boy? I think that came out in 1986 and promptly bombed. Pretty sure they never even managed a sequel.

And what about that stupid game staring a hedgehog? I mean, lol, a hedgehog? I bet whomever came up with that is in the poor house now.

I just KNEW people were going to bring up Link after this, and thank you for earning me a buck from a bet I made.
The fact is: do they target the same audience?
In simpler games, a furry/non-human mascot works, as they're easily identifyable and ooze family friendliness (not to mention: the Merch). In mature "one wrong move could mean genocide", they don't work.

Name me some really popular games (that means both good sales figures and good reviews) with a forced non-human PC with a Mature or older rating. Don't worry. I'll wait.

*hesitantly*  Does the Devil May Cry series count?  Dante is only half human and Nero isn't fully human either, if I recall correctly.  Those games have done quite well.

Yes, DMC does count.

The Witcher is essentially a mutant, for what it's worth.

Lots of mature games with animal protagonists. I can't believe I'm bringing it up but...Conker?

And even if there is a dearth of successful mature games with a non-human protagonist, that doesn't mean that a game with one would not be successful, we simply haven't had many opportunities for it. Take a chance on your audience, BioWare, we can take a non-human protagonist. Maybe this is the right time for it.

[element eater]

Link is actualy considered human in the zelda series i believe despite his ears

@unknown warrior
actualy there are loads of games that have featured non human prtagonists although i suspect you will simply dismiss any thing that isnt and rpg or which are not 'mature'. Regardless heres some of the top of my head

bloodlines, blood rayne, soul reaver and legacy of kain series, odd world games, final fantasy 9, bioshock 2, devil may cry, okami

Modifié par element eater, 27 mars 2012 - 02:04 .

[Blastback]

David Gaider wrote...

renjility wrote...
I wonder how accurate those numbers are, because for those achievements to upload you have to allow the game to log you in, which was not obligatory in DAO. You could have had the very strange occurrence of many people who happen to play elves and/or dwarves not bothering to connect their account. :innocent: Just saying.

For DAO you had to specifically disallow telemetry to be delivered-- and that's separate from the login. Considering our sample size of data is in the millions of individual players, I don't think it can really be discounted as statistically inaccurate.

The one thing to keep in mind here is that some of us with consoles don't keep the console pluged into the net.  I first got Origins on the 360, and don't have a tv where I can access the net. 

[Blastback]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far. Then the city elf, then the dalish. Don't remember the distribution, sorry, just that city elf and dalish were both well behind. All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

3%.  That is a gorram tragedy.  Dorf Noble and City Elf were the most interesting origins.  Also, having someone speak to the commoners for me was the biggest laugh I got in the whole game.  I could not stop giggling. 


It seems (to me!) the easiest method of offering multiple races would be to constrain the starting social class or origin of the PC.  I mean... there's a difference between "human servent" and "elfy servent" but not that much of a difference.  IIRC, in places like Orlais, there can be almost no difference because that place is like a Lady Gaga video 24/7.  The difference between human, elfy, and dorf merchents would be even less.  Either their wealthy, doing ok, or stugggling and their surroundings would reflect that, regardless of their race.  There would be differences in how characters react to the different races, but that seems like it would be less of a stress than having to design maps and surroundings for each racial origin. 

Still, offer me the chance to play a non-human, and I'll be playing an elf mage chick.  There's a folder on my C: drive that would explain it all, but no civilized conversation can come from that topic.

I have an idea that could potentially work to allow multiple races for a single game and get around the accent issue.  Have the character be an orphan, either adopted or raised in an orphanage, and they adopt the accent of whoever raised them.  Yeah, it's cliche, but instead of having the Star Wars or Baldur's Gate style your true parantage destines you for great things, let you be just a regular orphan who gets caught up in great things.  No special parantge.  And part of your adventure could involve making a connection with your cultural heritige. 

[Maria Caliban]

element eater wrote...

@Maria
actualy there are loads of games that have featured non human prtagonists although i suspect you will simply dismiss any thing that isnt and rpg or which are not 'mature'.

I think you're confusing me with someone else.

bloodlines, blood rayne, soul reaver and legacy of kain series, odd world games, final fantasy 9, bioshock 2, devil may cry, okami

Great list.

[element eater]

@maria I apologise I misread the post. probably a good sign i should stop for the night 

i have edited the post appropriately

Modifié par element eater, 27 mars 2012 - 02:05 .

[adlocutio]

David Gaider wrote...
Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far. Then the city elf, then the dalish. Don't remember the distribution, sorry, just that city elf and dalish were both well behind. All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

You seem to have drawn a general conclusion that because most people didn't play these races in Origins that means they wouldn't in any DA game, correct? Do you have any way of knowing how these trends might be different if the races themselves were presented differently? E.g., if Dwarves ruled Thedas, would more people want to play a dwarf? Or would elves be more popular if they had a great empire to explore? Or if they had special abilities unique to their races? I'm suggesting the lore itself might influence race selection, and affect enjoyment of playing those races.

David Gaider wrote...
 ..lest you arrive at a point where you say that all content is required to be seen by every player.

Isn't this the way Bioware games are trending, though, because of the expense of cinematic storytelling? I thought I read on these forums that so-called "duplicate" content was to be avoided because of development costs.  IMHO, "duplicate" content, like Origin stories, affects perceived value as much as any other aspect of a Bioware RPG. Bioware games don't have big open worlds to explore like Bethesda games, so if there isn't much "duplicate content" to explore, there is a perceived relative lack of value.  I think this was a commonly cited issue in DA2 and I think that's what people meant when they said "My choices don't matter."

[TurboTwistedFire]

Mr. Gaider I have a marketing related question.

Would Bioware legally be able to open up a donation system? Something like Wikipedia has? Maybe hold a pole of the top things most requested to see in Dragon Age 3 and then name a goal for how much money would need to be raised to implement the winner. I know I wouldn't mind donating some money to see Origins return in DA3. Maybe those who donate can get 10% off or something if they preorder DA3 when the time comes.

I really don't know anything about marketing games (or really marketing for that matter). Would this even be a possibility if the planets aligned perfectly or would this just be impossible?

[staindgrey]

In all honesty... and I know I'm in the minority here... I see and like the positives of having a single race. With Hawke, I had a more involved family history, which was a driving focus for the character. We watched family die, had multiple conversations regarding our family history, and could even be locked in battle against our own sibling. DAII was a far more compelling character driven piece, while DAO was world-driven. Two different goals.

The history my Wardens had were cool, no doubt. Going back to the Circle with my mage was much more involved than when I went with my warrior. Etc. So there are certainly positives to go with that route, along with the idea of customization, variances, all that. But if I can get a deeper character experience at the expense of choosing my race, I'll take it. The people from my origins never had that big of an impact on me. My city elf's family? I almost totally forgot about them until they came up again. My dwarf's beloved? Him too. But Hawke's family was always present in some way, and I liked that better.

It's just my opinion, though. No need to go spreading it around.

[Adanu]

Worrywort wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

That is really unfortunate because imo the dwarf commoner origin is the best by far. I absolutely love the part where the dwarf commoner takes of Everd's helmet and shows everyone is the arena that a castless dwarf bested them all.

DIdn't care for it, but I cna see the appeal.

Personally preferred the little rebellion you do with the mage origin. A small act, but the tower really drove home just how isolated those people were.

[Calbeb]

I really loved the origins in the original Dragon Age. It made for some honest to god roleplaying. I played a Dwarf Noble on my first playthrough, and the opening familial drama actually affected how I reacted to events as the game continued forwards. I am not the kind of player to roleplay, but I actively played a little more arrogant at the start, and started to let the character mellow as the game continued and the shades of gray started seeping into the story.

I played every origin, and went all the way through the game with both the Human Noble and Mage after that. Both characters felt different to me.

If they did origins like that again, I would be very happy, although I understand the SWTOR type task of having that much VO is unlikely. It's a shame.

[Mr Fixit]

adlocutio wrote...

You seem to have drawn a general conclusion that because most people didn't play these races in Origins that means they wouldn't in any DA game, correct? Do you have any way of knowing how these trends might be different if the races themselves were presented differently? E.g., if Dwarves ruled Thedas, would more people want to play a dwarf? Or would elves be more popular if they had a great empire to explore? Or if they had special abilities unique to their races? I'm suggesting the lore itself might influence race selection, and affect enjoyment of playing those races.

Very likely. David said it himself that by far the most played elf origin was the mage one. Magic=elves, that sort of stuff. On the other hand, when you're just an average Joe, might as well go the whole nine yards and be human. For most players, anyway.

[AkiKishi]

adlocutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far. Then the city elf, then the dalish. Don't remember the distribution, sorry, just that city elf and dalish were both well behind. All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

You seem to have drawn a general conclusion that because most people didn't play these races in Origins that means they wouldn't in any DA game, correct? Do you have any way of knowing how these trends might be different if the races themselves were presented differently? E.g., if Dwarves ruled Thedas, would more people want to play a dwarf? Or would elves be more popular if they had a great empire to explore? Or if they had special abilities unique to their races? I'm suggesting the lore itself might influence race selection, and affect enjoyment of playing those races.

David Gaider wrote...
 ..lest you arrive at a point where you say that all content is required to be seen by every player.

Isn't this the way Bioware games are trending, though, because of the expense of cinematic storytelling? I thought I read on these forums that so-called "duplicate" content was to be avoided because of development costs.  IMHO, "duplicate" content, like Origin stories, affects perceived value as much as any other aspect of a Bioware RPG. Bioware games don't have big open worlds to explore like Bethesda games, so if there isn't much "duplicate content" to explore, there is a perceived relative lack of value.  I think this was a commonly cited issue in DA2 and I think that's what people meant when they said "My choices don't matter."

I think that the metrics are simply showing that most people are choosing the default options not the human option. It's the same with Mass Effect. The most popular class is soldier because that is what Shepard defaults to and what anyone quickstarting the game gets. If you put elf as the default option ,lot's of people would suddelnly be playing elves.
My first character was a Human Noble about 20 minutes in I switched off the tracking data (took that long to find it) Although I've played every Origin only that first one is on record.

Games with little to no redundant content would be the Final Fantasy/JRPG model.Even a choice of gender is a huge ammount of redundant content in a single playthrough of the game. (Not advocating removing it, just pointing it out).