314 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

WardenWade wrote...

As has been mentioned previously on this thread, I played DA:O originally on a console that isn't connected to the network.  Others may not have had their data--which in my case which would have been completed playthroughs all for non-human Wardens--added to the statistics because of this, as well.

BioWare would presumably know how many copies they sold on all platforms and what percentage of them set information in, with a margin of error due to pirates who send in data.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[Sharn01]

When 1% of all players side with the Templar's, we will go out of our way to paint the mages as raving lunatics so that more people side with the Templar's.

When 20% of the players choose non-humans as a race, we toss them aside as worthless rather then trying to make them more desirable to play.

[Sutekh]

renjility wrote...

For me it is hard to grasp why so many people just go for the human noble. I cannot guess their reasons for that.

For the same reasons that many people would go for french fries instead of that potentially delicious vegetables mix made of vegetables from far far away no man has eaten before. I wouldn't go as far as "neophobia", but yeah, neophobia.

Also, a lot of people self-insert. I've seen that in cRPG, fanfiction, original fiction, PnP etc... it's easier to do so with something that looks like your own species, thinks like your own species and - to an extent - comes from the same cultural background as your own species.

Finally, I've also noticed that people familiar with a given something tend to be more experimental / curious than people doing that something for the first time(s). Veteran PnP players, for instance, would go more easily for the alienish race / clan / whatever.

In DA case, I don't think it's about elves being less powerful than human, or about their (lesser) place in society, because I doubt that, when starting up the game for the first time, people know anything about Thedas. They more likely go for the pure (familiar, tall, strong) look of humans vs. elves or dwarves, especially since there are no distinctive abilities from one race to another (except for "no magic" for dwarves).

[Maria Caliban]

Sutekh wrote...

For the same reasons that many people would go for french fries instead of that potentially delicious vegetables mix made of vegetables from far far away no man has eaten before. I wouldn't go as far as "neophobia", but yeah, neophobia.

Good lord, you're full of yourself.

And your metaphor is horrible. Not eating a potentially poisonous plant is 'neophobia?'

[LPPrince]

I'm more interested in crafting my own character from the ground up(Origins) than playing an established character(Hawke) with the illusion of choice.

[Atakuma]

LPPrince wrote...

I'm more interested in crafting my own character from the ground up(Origins) than playing an established character(Hawke) with the illusion of choice.

The illusion is present in both cases, Origin's illusion is stronger, but an illusion nonetheless.

[LPPrince]

Atakuma wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm more interested in crafting my own character from the ground up(Origins) than playing an established character(Hawke) with the illusion of choice.

The illusion is present in both cases, Origin's illusion is stronger, but an illusion nonetheless.

Fair enough.

[jmd4]

Maria Caliban wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As has been mentioned previously on this thread, I played DA:O originally on a console that isn't connected to the network.  Others may not have had their data--which in my case which would have been completed playthroughs all for non-human Wardens--added to the statistics because of this, as well.

BioWare would presumably know how many copies they sold on all platforms and what percentage of them set information in, with a margin of error due to pirates who send in data.

WardenWade is referring to the data on which race they played not being added to the telemetry data because his/her console was not online, not whether BioWare knows whether they bought the game and which platform it was. There is a small portion of the population who didn't contribute racial data about whom they know nothing regarding racial choices.

[Sutekh]

Maria Caliban wrote...
 
Good lord, you're full of yourself.

And your metaphor is horrible. Not eating a potentially poisonous plant is 'neophobia?'

I just knew it would come across the wrong way. I was thinking along the line of a need for familiarity, to go for what we know, and already know that we like. Clearly that "no man has eaten before" bit was a mistake on my part.

There was also no judgement there. I don't think "neophobia" is inherently a bad thing, and I certainly don't mean that all the reasons I gave (which, in the end, are nothing but broad generalizations / speculations anyway) are the wrong way to do things. I'd be one goddamn hypocrite if I did.

[NedPepper]

I think a potential compromise, if isn't going to eat too much of the budget, would be two races. Human and...elves? Dwarves? Qunari? I don't know. But you'd probably have to have voice actors for male and female versions of both. That's four VA you're paying. (Although, I do think many voice actors have the ability to do different accents. There's got to be a cheaper way to cut down on costs by simply using a skilled VA who can change up their voice.) And as long as the two races have completely different origins, it definitley adds to the replay and maybe with less choices, in this once instance, people WILL play an elf.

My buddy played Origins twice. He's a small guy. Only 5'4 and loves rogues. He played a city elf and a dwarf commoner. I think, in a weird way, he related more to that city elf than the human noble.

I played them all. And enjoyed them all....although the Dwaren Noble is by far the most satisfying.

But with the numbers reading so small...I get it. It is what it is. People like playing humans.

[Sharn01]

Atakuma wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm more interested in crafting my own character from the ground up(Origins) than playing an established character(Hawke) with the illusion of choice.

The illusion is present in both cases, Origin's illusion is stronger, but an illusion nonetheless.

If all choices are an illusion, and I am not arguing that they are not, isnt the stronger they make that illusion for the player better, by both giving them more option and freedom in their gameplay as well as making the world more immersive?

Just because its an illusion doesnt mean its unecessary, if its uncessary, then why have any choice at all?

Modifié par Sharn01, 27 mars 2012 - 05:15 .

[AkiKishi]

Atakuma wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

I'm more interested in crafting my own character from the ground up(Origins) than playing an established character(Hawke) with the illusion of choice.

The illusion is present in both cases, Origin's illusion is stronger, but an illusion nonetheless.

There is a difference between illusion of choice and choice. In DA it was a choice how you went about killing the Archdemon. In DA2 it was an illusion of choice that supporting the Templars or Mages would make a difference.

[Maria Caliban]

jmd4 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As has been mentioned previously on this thread, I played DA:O originally on a console that isn't connected to the network.  Others may not have had their data--which in my case which would have been completed playthroughs all for non-human Wardens--added to the statistics because of this, as well.

BioWare would presumably know how many copies they sold on all platforms and what percentage of them set information in, with a margin of error due to pirates who send in data.

WardenWade is referring to the data on which race they played not being added to the telemetry data because his/her console was not online, not whether BioWare knows whether they bought the game and which platform it was. There is a small portion of the population who didn't contribute racial data about whom they know nothing regarding racial choices.

Yeah, that's what I said.

BioWare knows how many people bought DA II on X-Box. They know how many sent in information. Therefore, they know what percentage of people didn't provide data.

[WardenWade]

Maria Caliban wrote...

jmd4 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As has been mentioned previously on this thread, I played DA:O originally on a console that isn't connected to the network.  Others may not have had their data--which in my case which would have been completed playthroughs all for non-human Wardens--added to the statistics because of this, as well.

BioWare would presumably know how many copies they sold on all platforms and what percentage of them set information in, with a margin of error due to pirates who send in data.

WardenWade is referring to the data on which race they played not being added to the telemetry data because his/her console was not online, not whether BioWare knows whether they bought the game and which platform it was. There is a small portion of the population who didn't contribute racial data about whom they know nothing regarding racial choices.

Yeah, that's what I said.

BioWare knows how many people bought DA II on X-Box. They know how many sent in information. Therefore, they know what percentage of people didn't provide data.

This is true.  Thank you for the replies, Maria and jmd4.  The only rub I see with the units sold vs. sending in info is that those, like me, who didn't send info had no way to communicate to Bioware at the time which specific races/origins in DA:O we preferred (besides the BSN, which is probably considered more dubious in that regard).   Is there Playstation data for this as well, do you know?

Modifié par WardenWade, 28 mars 2012 - 02:26 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

So really us playing the game connected to your database is our downfall. We shouldn't let a game be built with metrics. It doesn't answer the why.

[Dave of Canada]

renjility wrote...

But doesn't 15% of your millions of player data translate into a fair amount of players who have chosen to play as an elf?

Doesn't mean much when out of that 15%, it doesn't mean they've completed the content. From what I'm understanding, it's 15% of people who created an elf as in ever.

[Maria Caliban]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

So really us playing the game connected to your database is our downfall. We shouldn't let a game be built with metrics. It doesn't answer the why.

It doesn't answer the why because metrics haven't contributed to any downfall.

Do you know what else metrics has told us? That people who play through romances are a minority. Yet, BioWare continues to provide a bunch of romances in all of its titles.

[Wulfram]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Doesn't mean much when out of that 15%, it doesn't mean they've completed the content. From what I'm understanding, it's 15% of people who created an elf as in ever.

Though as I noted on the previous page, there's something screwy with those statistics.  They only work if no one ever played more than once.

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

Though as I noted on the previous page, there's something screwy with those statistics.  They only work if no one ever played more than once.

They work if people who play multiple races are statistically insignificant and the numbers are rounded. I doubt the split is exactly 80/15/5.

That said, yes, it's possible that David is misremembering or misstating the numbers themselves.

What I doubt, and what I think some people hope for, is that BioWare got the numbers wrong. That they gathered information from a million+ users and then had people with no statistical background analyze it. Or that they only gathered information from 80% of their consumer base, but that's not 100% so they can't draw any accurate information from the data.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 mars 2012 - 06:24 .

[byzantine horse]

For what it's worth David, if the biggest issue with multiple playable races is voiceovers (which is one of the I'd wager, coupled with modelling armors and stuff) I wouldn't mind if an elf and a human sounded the same. Just having the option between the two is all that matters as I enjoyed playing the elves. I doubt that the dwarves would fit though, they should sound a bit different.

[Restraint]

nedpepper wrote...

I think a potential compromise, if isn't going to eat too much of the budget, would be two races. Human and...elves? Dwarves? Qunari? I don't know. But you'd probably have to have voice actors for male and female versions of both. That's four VA you're paying. (Although, I do think many voice actors have the ability to do different accents. There's got to be a cheaper way to cut down on costs by simply using a skilled VA who can change up their voice.) And as long as the two races have completely different origins, it definitley adds to the replay and maybe with less choices, in this once instance, people WILL play an elf.

My buddy played Origins twice. He's a small guy. Only 5'4 and loves rogues. He played a city elf and a dwarf commoner. I think, in a weird way, he related more to that city elf than the human noble.

I played them all. And enjoyed them all....although the Dwaren Noble is by far the most satisfying.

But with the numbers reading so small...I get it. It is what it is. People like playing humans.

It's not just the voice acting that is the problem, though. They would have to make the story generic enough to make PCs of multiple races seem consistent, which gets in the way of them actually going in depth with racial politics in the story. 

I mean, how would it be if one of the upcoming dragon age games features a qunari invasion or an exalted march on the dwarves? The story is only going to diverge so much, after all. It would have to be frighteningly bland to make things consistent with multiple racial choices. Even origins, which had a lot of leeway in this area from the stereotypical plot about uniting everyone to save the world, was almost identical for every race after the origin story.

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What I doubt, and what I think some people hope for, is that BioWare got the numbers wrong. That they gathered information from a million+ users and then had people with no statistical background analyze it. Or that they only gathered information from 80% of their consumer base, but that's not 100% so they can't draw any accurate information from the data.

True, Bioware no doubt have the right numbers - and really, they only need a very limited response rate to get usable statistics as long as there's no huge bias as to who switches the reporting off.  And the guys with business or programming backgrounds I'd expect to be able to understand statistics.

[TMJfin]

nightscrawl wrote...

You might consider though, than in an RPG where such emphasis is placed on becoming the character, or identifying as the character, that being human would be the logical choice. We know how to be a human. On the other hand, we don't know how to be a dwarf or an elf, we can only imagine such.

Yes, I can understand why some people like to play as human but I'm little bit shocked that 80% of people played with human chacarter. And well, even thoug I know how to be human, I don't know how to be human noble and have my parent's killed And I'm not a woman but I related more to my female human noble than my male one, don't really know why.

And I did know how to be an dalish elf in Dragon Age world, there is more than enough lore about them and he's still my favourite Warden. He hated humans as he've been thought but crew to trust them. But I think the reason for that is that I've always liked elfs, so dalish elf origin for my first playtrough was a no brainer.

I was sad to see origins gone in DA2, but I'm also ok to play with only human character (and didn't like the look of DA2 elfs anyway) and couple of my Hawkes I actually like very much.

But there always will be opinions and I would never dare to say that anything that I say is more right than someone who don't ever wanna play anything but human.

I don't know if anything that I just wrote made any sense, but oh well.
And BTW, Thank you Mr. Gaider for your interaction with us. I know that sometimes we can be pain in the butt  And is nice to read DA2 forums again because most of the heat is now on ME3

[NedPepper]

Restraint wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

I think a potential compromise, if isn't going to eat too much of the budget, would be two races. Human and...elves? Dwarves? Qunari? I don't know. But you'd probably have to have voice actors for male and female versions of both. That's four VA you're paying. (Although, I do think many voice actors have the ability to do different accents. There's got to be a cheaper way to cut down on costs by simply using a skilled VA who can change up their voice.) And as long as the two races have completely different origins, it definitley adds to the replay and maybe with less choices, in this once instance, people WILL play an elf.

My buddy played Origins twice. He's a small guy. Only 5'4 and loves rogues. He played a city elf and a dwarf commoner. I think, in a weird way, he related more to that city elf than the human noble.

I played them all. And enjoyed them all....although the Dwaren Noble is by far the most satisfying.

But with the numbers reading so small...I get it. It is what it is. People like playing humans.

It's not just the voice acting that is the problem, though. They would have to make the story generic enough to make PCs of multiple races seem consistent, which gets in the way of them actually going in depth with racial politics in the story. 

I mean, how would it be if one of the upcoming dragon age games features a qunari invasion or an exalted march on the dwarves? The story is only going to diverge so much, after all. It would have to be frighteningly bland to make things consistent with multiple racial choices. Even origins, which had a lot of leeway in this area from the stereotypical plot about uniting everyone to save the world, was almost identical for every race after the origin story.

Yeah, I mean you make a great point.  My thinking, (trying to find a compromise with the people who want some kind of selection) is you pick two races that won't have huge implications on the plot.  All it would do is make little changes here and there with reactions to your race. 

I'm not sure if it's the best way to go, but it is a compromise.  I'm fine with just being a human or an elf, or just having one choice.  Hawke worked for me.  But people seem to really want race selection back...just trying to figure out HOW to do it well and realistically is the challenge.  If you do it at all.