314 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Restraint wrote...

It's not just the voice acting that is the problem, though. They would have to make the story generic enough to make PCs of multiple races seem consistent, which gets in the way of them actually going in depth with racial politics in the story. 

I mean, how would it be if one of the upcoming dragon age games features a qunari invasion or an exalted march on the dwarves? The story is only going to diverge so much, after all. It would have to be frighteningly bland to make things consistent with multiple racial choices. Even origins, which had a lot of leeway in this area from the stereotypical plot about uniting everyone to save the world, was almost identical for every race after the origin story.

How would DA2 not have worked with an elven (non dalish) protagonist?  I mean, there'd be a few differences - a different family, obviously, and people generally being ruder until act 3 - but well, that's the point of having different origins isn't it?

The storyline of each act still works fine.  Act 1 only requires you need money.  Act 2 requires that you have the attention of the Arishok, and the Arishok wouldn't care that you're an elf.  Act 3 requires that you saved the city and became Champion - and if a Mage can be accepted as Champion then an elf can.

[kyles3]

byzantine horse wrote...

I doubt that the dwarves would fit though, they should sound a bit different.

Bodahn doesn't sound much different.

[AkiKishi]

Wulfram wrote...

Restraint wrote...

It's not just the voice acting that is the problem, though. They would have to make the story generic enough to make PCs of multiple races seem consistent, which gets in the way of them actually going in depth with racial politics in the story. 

I mean, how would it be if one of the upcoming dragon age games features a qunari invasion or an exalted march on the dwarves? The story is only going to diverge so much, after all. It would have to be frighteningly bland to make things consistent with multiple racial choices. Even origins, which had a lot of leeway in this area from the stereotypical plot about uniting everyone to save the world, was almost identical for every race after the origin story.

How would DA2 not have worked with an elven (non dalish) protagonist?  I mean, there'd be a few differences - a different family, obviously, and people generally being ruder until act 3 - but well, that's the point of having different origins isn't it?

The storyline of each act still works fine.  Act 1 only requires you need money.  Act 2 requires that you have the attention of the Arishok, and the Arishok wouldn't care that you're an elf.  Act 3 requires that you saved the city and became Champion - and if a Mage can be accepted as Champion then an elf can.

But your whole reason for being in Kirkwall and the characters connection to Kirkwall would not exist. That's a lot of reworking of the basic plot of the game.

[Mr Fixit]

Sutekh wrote...


Finally, I've also noticed that people familiar with a given something tend to be more experimental / curious than people doing that something for the first time(s).

I love it when you talk dirty.

[Restraint]

Wulfram wrote...

How would DA2 not have worked with an elven (non dalish) protagonist?  I mean, there'd be a few differences - a different family, obviously, and people generally being ruder until act 3 - but well, that's the point of having different origins isn't it?

The storyline of each act still works fine.  Act 1 only requires you need money.  Act 2 requires that you have the attention of the Arishok, and the Arishok wouldn't care that you're an elf.  Act 3 requires that you saved the city and became Champion - and if a Mage can be accepted as Champion then an elf can.

Origins may have squeaked by with what amounted to nothing more than a few people being generally ruder to Elf Wardens, but I don't believe that is what Bioware should or do aspire to. Elves are pretty downtrodden in this setting. It would be like if the new Assassin's Creed protagonist was black and only a few of the 18th century american NPCs so much as made an offhand comment about it. It just rings hollow and in my opinion undermines the setting. It would be worse in a game whose plot involved an actual racial war. What kind of mental gymnastics would have to be done to justify a Kossith PC in a story about uniting the free marches or whatever against a Qunari invasion? 

Also a mage becoming Kirkwall's champion (and in general everyone ignoring your being a mage) is probably one of the weaker parts of the story in DA2. Mages vs non-mages gets the same kind of whitewashing that the races would get if they went back to having origin stories and I'd like to see that improved.

Modifié par Restraint, 27 mars 2012 - 07:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

One thing that the 80% number doesn't show, but I believe BioWare knows, is that people like options even if they never use them.

I bought the Witcher 2 when it came out. If you don't know, there are two different Chapter 2s depending on a choice you make in the game. And the chapters are a good length. I played through one path and uninstalled it, but I still thought it was awesome that the other path existed.

[bEVEsthda]

David Gaider wrote...

It's probably worth mentioning that elves were only played by 15% (or less? I don't remember the exact number) of DAO players... as in ever. Meaning only 15% even tried the elven origins on one of their playthroughs.

Which is not to say the new elven look in DA2 would make it more or less popular, if offered... or anything, really, other than that the DAO elves were not inherently popular options to begin with.

I think this is one of those places where the telemetry doesn't lie. Race options are very popular with a smaller group of players-- to them, the expense is totally worth it. But the vast majority of players will only pick humans, even when options are offered. Whether there's any value to those people that such options exist, even if not taken, is the only intangible element in the equation (and should probably not be underestimated).

I'm not talking about myself here. The first thing I did was to pick an alien race.

...But the rest of them players might have planned to play other origins, later. Might still be planning to do so.
They might never find the time or opportunity to do so, but that doesn't mean that the possibility of having that is not perceived as a richness or advantage. And the lack as a, ...well, lack.

I can't help feeling there's a similarity to the 'three installs' debacle with Spore. What people recognize as a substantial lack , and how the majority of them are statistically expected to really be affected by it in the end, in reality, are two different things.

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 27 mars 2012 - 07:51 .

[PsychoBlonde]

David Gaider wrote...

Elven mage was the most popular elf origin, by far. Then the city elf, then the dalish. Don't remember the distribution, sorry, just that city elf and dalish were both well behind. All I remember is the dwarf origins: 3% for the dwarven nobles, 2% for the dwarf commoner.

That's kind of sad--the dwarven noble origin was, by far, the best-written, with mage pulling up 2nd.  That being said, the only characters I finished the game on were human.  The elves and dwarves just looked a bit . . . odd to me, and I'm so picky about how my character looks that its a Big Deal for me if they look even the tiniest bit "odd".

Can I quantify that "odd"?  No.  C'est la vie.

[David Gaider]

Maria Caliban wrote...

One thing that the 80% number doesn't show, but I believe BioWare knows, is that people like options even if they never use them.

I bought the Witcher 2 when it came out. If you don't know, there are two different Chapter 2s depending on a choice you make in the game. And the chapters are a good length. I played through one path and uninstalled it, but I still thought it was awesome that the other path existed.

This is correct. As I've said several times, there's value to choices even when they're not taken-- so you really only want to take the figures so far in terms of using them as the sole benchmark for determining their overall value to the project.

If I was to use those numbers for anything, as a "for instance", it would be in underlining how many origins we had for each race. Maybe we would have been better off having one dwarf origin and two elven origins, and put more work into additional human origins (and perhaps kept the ones we cut). Or maybe it underlines that we should have sold the other races/origins better to the new player, so they knew what those options meant when they started the game. There's lots of ways you can take that.

And don't take the 80% as gospel, incidentally. That's me making mental subtraction against the other numbers which I do recall-- but, as someone mentioned earlier, they probably wouldn't add up to 100%. So I'm probably wrong on that front. I remember the DA2 telemetry better than DAO telemetry, but DAO is obviously the only benchmark we have when it comes to racial choice.

Modifié par David Gaider, 27 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[Wulfram]

BobSmith101 wrote...

But your whole reason for being in Kirkwall and the characters connection to Kirkwall would not exist. That's a lot of reworking of the basic plot of the game.

Same reason as the Hawkes got there.  You've got relatives living in Kirkwall.  City Elves seem to rely pretty heavily on the support of their extended family, and they intermarry between alienages, so it makes sense really.

Modifié par Wulfram, 27 mars 2012 - 07:40 .

[adlocutio]

David Gaider wrote...

adlocutio wrote...
You seem to have drawn a general conclusion that because most people didn't play these races in Origins that means they wouldn't in any DA game, correct?

Why would I seem to have drawn such a conclusion? I've said nothing of the kind.

It was intended to provoke a reply about why my assumption was wrong, lol.

David Gaider wrote...
 I know it's difficult from your side to draw a line between things that were done because we had little choice (vis a vis the resources on hand) and things that were done because we intended to do them (regardless of how well they were or weren't executed, relatively speaking), but it'd be advisable that you maintain the idea that such a distinction does exist.

It's not difficult to draw such a line; I think everyone here understands there's a difference between what you want to do in development and what you can. My point was that to the consumer the distinction is irrelevant.  I suggested that with limited resources, the cost of cinematic storytelling might squeeze out duplicate content, and that might ultimately be worse for the perceived value of the game because of the type of game it is.  How much do you as a developer (indvidually, or as a spokesperson for Bioware) value duplicate content in your RPGs, if you don't mind saying?

Thanks for the reply, btw.

[AkiKishi]

Wulfram wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

But your whole reason for being in Kirkwall and the characters connection to Kirkwall would not exist. That's a lot of reworking of the basic plot of the game.

Same reason as the Hawkes got there.  You've got relatives living in Kirkwall.  City Elves seem to rely pretty heavily on the support of their extended family, and they intermarry between alienages, so it makes sense really.

How would you actually get into Kirkwall?

[Davillo]

I'm pretty sure we will have a multilayer where you can make your character and chose any race you want.

[tmp7704]

BobSmith101 wrote...

How would you actually get into Kirkwall?

By having your relatives arrange meeting with a smuggler or mercenary group, presenting you as valuable asset they would love to have?

In other words, just like human Hawke.

[Restraint]

 

tmp7704 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

How would you actually get into Kirkwall?

By having your relatives arrange meeting with a smuggler or mercenary group, presenting you as valuable asset they would love to have?

In other words, just like human Hawke.

So the way to have multiple races as protagonist in dragon age 2 would have been to treat them the same in every way? What is the point of all that lore they wrote about the races if the PC is just going to be above it all? That drove me crazy in origins and then at least there was a handwaved explanation about Grey Wardenhood coming before anything else, including longstanding irrational racial prejudice.

Modifié par Restraint, 27 mars 2012 - 09:07 .

[Momiji.mii]

David Gaider wrote...

I remember the DA2 telemetry better than DAO telemetry

I sort of wish we could see those numbers, if only to prove those who claim to speak for everyone wrong. Also, because the numbers of what choices players did in their playthroughs interest me.

I know a lot of fans claim to unclick the feedback option, but I've always kept it on. If I want my choices in the game to show up in the statistics and have at least a chance to impact what kind of content goes into any new games Bioware makes, then the feedback option is imo probably better than me, Momijimii, ranting at a forum. It sad though that those who don't have an internet connection for their xbox won't show up in the statistics, since it's not an active choice of theirs to avoid giving feedback (and they usually don't come online later, claiming that only n00bs play as a human, etc).

But anyways, I'm certainly glad that Bioware looks at more than just statistics, or else we might not have, as David put it, a female PC or gay romance and perhaps I wouldn't even have played these games if that were the case, so yeah, I'm glad statistics aren't all they're looking at.

Modifié par Momiji.mii, 27 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[omegasama]

While I would love to have different races to pick from, I really like to be able to hear what my character say, like with Hawke (or Shep if you compare it to ME). I love hearing the conversations spoken rather than read.

Well, as long as the party banter is there I am happy. It's one of my fave parts with DA.

[tmp7704]

Restraint wrote...

So the way to have multiple races as protagonist in dragon age 2 would have been to treat them the same in every way?

No, but at the same time when the plot written for the character doesn't actually require them to be of certain species and instead can work for multiple options, using it for these multiple options can be perfectly sensible route.

In this particular situation solution offered to human protagonist isn't something that's couldn't work for anyone but the human protagonist.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[David Gaider]

Momiji.mii wrote...
I sort of wish we could see those numbers, if only to prove those who claim to speak for everyone wrong. Also, because the numbers of what choices players did in their playthroughs interest me.

I sometimes wish we would post those numbers, too... for the vague pleasure of seeing the fans on these forums confronted with indisputable evidence of just how much in the minority they are. I think there's an impression that some people get that, because everyone else who comes to the forums talks about things like multiple playthroughs, that this is a normal thing.

Of course, with that knowledge comes a fear that their value is thus less because it's not backed up by numbers-- which seem to be really important to some folks, in terms of validation. So it's probably best not to.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd really like to know how much I'm in the minority, personally. #templarsupporter

[Restraint]

tmp7704 wrote...

No, but at the same time when the plot written for the character doesn't actually require them to be of certain species and instead can work for multiple options, using it for these multiple options can be perfectly sensible route.

In this particular situation solution offered to human protagonist isn't something that's couldn't work for anyone but the human protagonist.

At some point the writers would to have to undermine the racial divide they created in order to have a story that fits all the races, and it would get worse the more relevant the politics of the race in question is to the story (if, say, they focus a major story arc or an entire game on the chantry calling an exalted march on the dwarves or something of that nature).

The Elf family Hawke would have had a great deal more trouble with everything from their original status in ferelden as a family of apostates to getting to and inside Kirkwall, and if they added an Elf origin story to change all that the protagonist would still never have become a noble or the champion without an impractical amount of unique story content. At some point it stops being three origins and becomes three separate games with the same plot.

If bioware could do the races (and mages) justice in dragon age 3 with a massive investment of resources I would love it, of course. But that isn't a reasonable thing to expect, and if the difference is between a deeper story with a defined protagonist or a generic one with several origins, I'll take the single protagonist.

Modifié par Restraint, 27 mars 2012 - 09:45 .

[Maria Caliban]

Being an elitist isn't compatible with being in a majority.

Maria's Tastes > The Unwashed Masses.

adlocutio wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

adlocutio wrote...
You seem to have drawn a general conclusion that because most people didn't play these races in Origins that means they wouldn't in any DA game, correct?

Why would I seem to have drawn such a conclusion? I've said nothing of the kind.

It was intended to provoke a reply about why my assumption was wrong, lol.

This becomes more like the old Dragon Age boards on a daily basis.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 27 mars 2012 - 09:52 .

[Brockololly]

David Gaider wrote...
I sometimes wish we would post those numbers, too... for the vague pleasure of seeing the fans on these forums confronted with indisputable evidence of just how much in the minority they are. I think there's an impression that some people get that, because everyone else who comes to the forums talks about things like multiple playthroughs, that this is a normal thing.

Is there any reason why those kinds of stats haven't been officially released for the DA games? Is that a marketing choice or who is in charge of releasing that kind of info? I know with ME2 and even more recently ME3's multiplayer had some stats released on how people were playing the games.

I'd be curious about Origins and DA2's stats though. I can recall Mike saying multiple times in the leadup to DA2 how some small fraction of people who started DA O actually ended up finishing the game. Did DA2 fare any better? Of the people that finished Origins, who was the most popular romance or what percentage of people killed Zevran or spared Loghain or went Ultimate Sacrifice versus Dark Ritual? How many people supported the Templars versus the Mages in DA2? Or with Origins, did a higher percentage of people who chose a non human origin end up finishing the game? And so on...

[tmp7704]

Restraint wrote...

At some point the writers would to have to undermine the racial divide they created in order to have a story that fits all the races

I don't think anyone is advocating the story should be uniformly "one size fits all" from the beginning to end. At the same time it doesn't mean the story has to be drastically different for each species. As usual, between these extremes there's plenty of room for reasonable middle ground.

The Elf family Hawke would have had a great deal more trouble with everything from their original status in ferelden as a family of apostates to getting to and inside Kirkwall

That's largely a moot point when all trouble the Hawke family possibly had getting to and inside Kirkwall are hand-waved with a "and then they were in Kirkwall" cutscene and literally 5-10 minutes of gameplay afterwards. The trouble of Hawke family before Kirkwall are barely acknowledged in codex and early dialogue, if that.

In other words, if you put the theoretical elf Hawkes with their extra trouble through the same scenes, end effect would be very much the same. Yes, the NPCs in Kirkwall could probably put extra accent in their speech how it's REALLY great favour they're doing the Hawkes because it's REALLY difficult for elves to get in. And the codex could mention how the life in Ferelden was REALLY difficult for them, too. Other than that? The entire sequence is so make-believe and generic the way it is, it's servicable enough.

and if they added an Elf origin story to change all that the protagonist would still never have become a noble or the champion without an impractical amount of unique story content.

Yes, the elf character would probably never become a noble. Which would mean some minor differences to the story. Minor, because being a noble doesn't actually have much impact on the plot -- Hawke doesn't get asked to handle the qunari problem (and becomes the champion down the road) because (s)he is a noble, but because (s)he's perceived as someone who is actually capable of handling that issue, and who does indeed handle it, eventually. Unlike native Kirkwall residents who spend their years waiting for audience and kicking walls.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2012 - 10:32 .

[adlocutio]

Maria Caliban wrote...

adlocutio wrote...
 It was intended to provoke a reply about why my assumption was wrong, lol.

This becomes more like the old Dragon Age boards on a daily basis.

I should clarify, my intent wasn't to provoke an argument or to be malicious. It was to provide an opportunity for DG to talk about the subject on his terms without my asking a specific question he might not be able to answer, and thus might ignore.