314 réponses à ce sujet

[element eater]

i wonder what the race statistics would be if there were no origins only race selection
i also wonder what the stastics would be like in comparison to skyrims race selection or amalurs

[twincast]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sutekh wrote...

For the same reasons that many people would go for french fries instead of that potentially delicious vegetables mix made of vegetables from far far away no man has eaten before. I wouldn't go as far as "neophobia", but yeah, neophobia.

Good lord, you're full of yourself.

And your metaphor is horrible. Not eating a potentially poisonous plant is 'neophobia?'

Jeez, you really every only interpret the worst into people's statements. He obviously wasn't talking about ignorantly plucking mushrooms for lunch, but about people who are so stuck in their comfort zone that they won't even try food that's being eaten right next to them only because they've never had it to begin with. Everyone has that to some degree. And going by anectdotal evidence from documentaries and (more or less scripted) reality TV generally speaking none more so than people that only ever got junk food at home and at school. Not that other groups are void of people with kind of extreme attitudes in that regard. I know several myself, none of which I would describe as more than a tad provincial. I myself would feel uncomfortable eating insects, but at least try them if offered, but the mere thought of eating any part of a head (especailly a vertebrate's) makes me vomit, so that's off the table sans experience.

And yes, all that is the very definition of neophobia, so get over yourself.

[Restraint]

 

   I don't think anyone is advocating the story should be uniformly "one size fits all" from the beginning to end. At the same time it doesn't mean the story has to be drastically different for each species. As usual, between these extremes there's plenty of room for reasonable middle ground.

That's largely a moot point when all trouble the Hawke family possibly had getting to and inside Kirkwall are hand-waved with a "and then they were in Kirkwall" cutscene and literally 5-10 minutes of gameplay afterwards. The trouble of Hawke family before Kirkwall are barely acknowledged in codex and early dialogue, if that.

In other words, if you put the theoretical elf Hawkes with their extra trouble through the same scenes, end effect would be very much the same. Yes, the NPCs in Kirkwall could probably put extra accent in their speech how it's REALLY great favour they're doing the Hawkes because it's REALLY difficult for elves to get in. And the codex could mention how the life in Ferelden was REALLY difficult for them, too. Other than that? The entire sequence is so make-believe and generic the way it is, it's servicable enough.

Yes, the elf character would probably never become a noble. Which would mean some minor differences to the story. Minor, because being a noble doesn't actually have much impact on the plot -- Hawke doesn't get asked to handle the qunari problem (and becomes the champion down the road) because (s)he is a noble, but because (s)he's perceived as someone who is actually capable of handling that issue, and who does indeed handle it, eventually. Unlike native Kirkwall residents who spend their years waiting for audience and kicking walls. 

I didn't mean to imply you were advocating a one size fits all story, merely that it would be unavoidable to some degree with a protagonist of variable race in a setting like this one where interracial politics are an important theme, and that I believe the gulf between the races is wide enough that the degree to which the story would have to stretch to fit multiple races and still do them justice is larger than is realistic to expect from bioware. 

Also, while we may be using DA2 and Hawke as an example, and I'll have something to say on that in a bit, it doesn't cover what I believe is the larger problem with a variable protagonist, and that is how it hobbles the writers in a story arc focusing on one of the interracial issues they've introduced so far to the setting. In Origins they basically skimmed over the whole "Loghaine just sold my friends to tevinter" thing for the city elf because there were five other origins to think about. In a hypothetical DA:O with only that origin they could have fleshed out the alienage, the tevinter slavers plot, and most importantly the general oppression of the elves by humanity instead of just doing all of that in passing.

Back to DA2 and Hawke, what you're advocating looks to me like we return to how DA:O did things where race ultimately didn't matter due to how inclusive the game had to be. I mean yeah, they could handwave some way for a family of elves to find space on a boat with a bunch of human refugees and for your PC to be so amazingly competent that a couple of factions would be willing to pay for your entry into the city, and they could effectively ignore your race when they make you champion after act 2, but like I said earlier all of these things to me undermine how the races are portrayed. In dialogue and the origin stories the plight of the elves is portrayed as pretty grim. Look at the city elf origin: some drunken nobleman's son with a few pet soldiers comes to the alienage, kidnaps several women, rapes one and his guards brutally murder another. In the dining hall if the guards catch what they see as an elven servant with weapons they decide to kill you for being under arms. My real argument here is that I don't think an Elf Hawke would work well because in a well crafted elf-centric story the guards in Kirkwall wouldn't allow an elf to have the run of the city, and certainly not while armed, and that the political machinations that are behind act 2 with the viscount and the qunari and in act 3 by being champion would be impossible.

Basically I can see them either exploring all of those issues with the same depth they showed in the origin stories while using a fixed protagonist, or they could take the bland route of DA:O post-origin stories where race only mattered in theory and gain a variable protagonist. 

It's offtopic but I feel the same way about mages. I'd love to see them make a Dragon Age game where playing an apostate mage required you to sneak through the city like you were playing the Nosferatu in Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines instead of how it was done in DA2 where everbody just ignored the highly relevant fact that you could be an apostate in a city full of templars. 

Modifié par Restraint, 28 mars 2012 - 01:16 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I sometimes wonder if the forums would explode if the next game forced everyone to be a dwarf.

It'd probably be glorious.

[Circle_Mage]

WardenWade wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

jmd4 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

WardenWade wrote...

As has been mentioned previously on this thread, I played DA:O originally on a console that isn't connected to the network.  Others may not have had their data--which in my case which would have been completed playthroughs all for non-human Wardens--added to the statistics because of this, as well.

BioWare would presumably know how many copies they sold on all platforms and what percentage of them set information in, with a margin of error due to pirates who send in data.

WardenWade is referring to the data on which race they played not being added to the telemetry data because his/her console was not online, not whether BioWare knows whether they bought the game and which platform it was. There is a small portion of the population who didn't contribute racial data about whom they know nothing regarding racial choices.

Yeah, that's what I said.

BioWare knows how many people bought DA II on X-Box. They know how many sent in information. Therefore, they know what percentage of people didn't provide data.

This is true.  Thank you for the replies, Maria and jmd4!  The only rub I see with the units sold vs. sending in info is that those, like me, who didn't send info had no way to communicate to Bioware at the time which specific races/origins in DA:O we preferred (besides the BSN, which is probably considered more dubious in that regard).   Is there Playstation data for this as well, do you know?

I see what you're saying, Wade.  For those that play on consoles, in this case DAO on the PS3 as you had mentioned, that are not connected to the internet, there's no way for Bioware to have known what race you played.  You were completely off the grid.  I'm not certain that knowing how many people bought a copy of the game for a particular console would inform the company about the race that you elected to play.  Such console gamers are part of a group - a minority, maybe. but who knows for sure - that are not counted in this statistic.  Plenty of those people may have played a non-human warden, which would alter the statistics as they currently stand.  You made a good point, Wade.  The PS3 and XBox people may not be fully represented here, which is unfortunate.

[ImperatorMortis]

I don't want to play a human, I have to look at humans everyday, and as a species I'm not impressed. I'm not a huge fan of elves either, but they're still a better option.

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 28 mars 2012 - 12:48 .

[Restraint]

Circle_Mage wrote...

I see what you're saying, Wade.  For those that play on consoles, in this case DAO on the PS3 as you had mentioned, that are not connected to the internet, there's no way for Bioware to have known what race you played.  You were completely off the grid.  I'm not certain that knowing how many people bought a copy of the game for a particular console would inform the company about the race that you elected to play.  Such console gamers are part of a group - a minority, maybe. but who knows for sure - that are not counted in this statistic.  Plenty of those people may have played a non-human warden, which would alter the statistics as they currently stand.  You made a good point, Wade.  The PS3 and XBox people may not be fully represented here, which is unfortunate.

I believe I remember seeing David Gaider say they had a sample size in the millions, which is far more than enough.

[Urthemiel Cousland]

I have a feeling bioware will still stick us with humans and just make us pick which class. Like it will probably be something like Mage, Templar, are Seeker. If your a mage then you probably came from tevinter, a templar that probably was there during the events of kirkwall,(to get more depth to your character and to "shore up world consistency") or a seeker that had just came from orlais and was somehow had relations to Lelianna or Cassandra. I would like to think if they did this they could make a pretty strong title even without races and keep the same voice actor.

[tmp7704]

Restraint wrote...

I didn't mean to imply you were advocating a one size fits all story, merely that it would be unavoidable to some degree with a protagonist of variable race in a setting like this one where interracial politics are an important theme, and that I believe the gulf between the races is wide enough that the degree to which the story would have to stretch to fit multiple races and still do them justice is larger than is realistic to expect from bioware. 

That's certainly a valid view to hold. I suppose my stance would be, i can't really disagree with it, still i'll just choose to stay hopeful that BioWare manages to surprise us in this regard, if they actually opt for the multiple species path   A lot of it depends really on what exactly story they'll choose to tell.

[gangly369]

tmp7704 wrote...

Restraint wrote...

I didn't mean to imply you were advocating a one size fits all story, merely that it would be unavoidable to some degree with a protagonist of variable race in a setting like this one where interracial politics are an important theme, and that I believe the gulf between the races is wide enough that the degree to which the story would have to stretch to fit multiple races and still do them justice is larger than is realistic to expect from bioware. 

That's certainly a valid view to hold. I suppose my stance would be, i can't really disagree with it, still i'll just choose to stay hopeful that BioWare manages to surprise us in this regard, if they actually opt for the multiple species path   A lot of it depends really on what exactly story they'll choose to tell.

That right there is the big one for me. Regardless of whether or not Bioware has the choice to choose between races, the most important thing is the story. That's the whole reason why I play Bioware games, the main story is almost always a homerun with me. Of course, I know some people get a kick out of being able to role play if they can pick their race, but so long as the story is good and it draws me in, I really couldn't care less about that particular aspect.

Give me some diverse companions (romanceable, 'broody', funny, drunken, bromances, etc.), a good plot that makes me think, and I'm all in 

Modifié par gangly369, 28 mars 2012 - 01:30 .

[element eater]

tmp7704 wrote...
 A lot of it depends really on what exactly story they'll choose to tell.

exactly

ultimately i dont think story or popularity realy has much to do with it . Sure you can use them to justify the decision.I  think though its the animation,cinematics armour meshes and  protagonist va, amnd other technical issues that will force the race selection out of the game. I think bioware know what they want to do and any thing that wont fit easily into that system will be cut regardless. Like how they say this game will be a mix of dao and da2 but so far its coming out heavily in favour of da2 all dao fans will get i suspect is minor exploration,more tactical combat and more traditional story presentation.

Modifié par element eater, 28 mars 2012 - 02:01 .

[Imrahil_]

David Gaider wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
You're right about that, but I believe it's one of those places where it's horribly misinterpreted.

I haven't offered any interpretation of that data

Really?  So, in a thread titled "Regarding Player Race in DA3", in response to the fact that DA:O included racial choices, DA2 didn't include racial choices, & people are asking you to include racial choices in DA3... you offered up that only 15% of DA:O players had played as Elves, but you weren't interpreting that data in any way?

Just throwing it out there, were you?  For no reason?  It just so happens that in a thread asking you to bring back racial choices you quoted that stat, with no interpretation whatsoever?  Come on, play fair.  Just come out & say you've already decided not to include racial choices for DA3.

[David Gaider]

Imrahil_ wrote...
Really?  So, in a thread titled "Regarding Player Race in DA3", in response to the fact that DA:O included racial choices, DA2 didn't include racial choices, & people are asking you to include racial choices in DA3... you offered up that only 15% of DA:O players had played as Elves, but you weren't interpreting that data in any way?

Just throwing it out there, were you?  For no reason?  It just so happens that in a thread asking you to bring back racial choices you quoted that stat, with no interpretation whatsoever?  Come on, play fair.  Just come out & say you've already decided not to include racial choices for DA3.

It was mentioned that the new look for elves would make them potentially less popular as a player race choice. I think the fact that the old look for elves weren't an incredibly popular choice as it was is quite relevant. So it's hardly "for no reason"... which, I assume, you would have discovered for yourself had you read the posts in question.

Insofar as to what we're doing or not doing for the future of DA3, we'll discuss the details when we can actually discuss them in full-- and discuss the good news as well as the bad (depending on where you stand).

Or you could just make assumptions about what we're doing, and our motivations. Out of a sense of "playing fair", I suppose.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

David Gaider wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...
Really?  So, in a thread titled "Regarding Player Race in DA3", in response to the fact that DA:O included racial choices, DA2 didn't include racial choices, & people are asking you to include racial choices in DA3... you offered up that only 15% of DA:O players had played as Elves, but you weren't interpreting that data in any way?

Just throwing it out there, were you?  For no reason?  It just so happens that in a thread asking you to bring back racial choices you quoted that stat, with no interpretation whatsoever?  Come on, play fair.  Just come out & say you've already decided not to include racial choices for DA3.

It was mentioned that the new look for elves would make them potentially less popular as a player race choice. I think the fact that the old look for elves weren't an incredibly popular choice as it was is quite relevant. So it's hardly "for no reason"... which, I assume, you would have discovered for yourself had you read the posts in question.

Insofar as to what we're doing or not doing for the future of DA3, we'll discuss the details when we can actually discuss them in full-- and discuss the good news as well as the bad (depending on where you stand).

Or you could just make assumptions about what we're doing, and our motivations. Out of a sense of "playing fair", I suppose.

Lord Gaider,  I eagerly await the day when the game's title and info shall be revealed to the faithful. Work Hard on Writing some really memorable and engaging characters, and I shall gladly play the game.

[Imrahil_]

David Gaider wrote...
It was mentioned that the new look for elves would make them potentially less popular as a player race choice. I think the fact that the old look for elves weren't an incredibly popular choice as it was is quite relevant. So it's hardly "for no reason"... which, I assume, you would have discovered for yourself had you read the posts in question.

Nice little dig.  I read the thread.  I just found it "odd" that you threw that stat out there then claimed you weren't making any interpretation of it.

As has been pointed out, though, & I maintain, you are reading your stats wrong.  Do you take into account the number of people who played as an Elf & also played as a Human & also played as a Dwarf?  Or are you interpreting it as "only 15% of all players played as an Elf"?  I mean, I played as a Human.  And an Elf. And a Dwarf.  How does that factor in?  One of the reasons I bought DA:O was that I could play as all 3.  One of the main reasons I didn't buy DA2 was that I couldn't play as all 3.

Or you could just make assumptions about what we're doing, and our motivations.

You should tell that to this guy:

David Gaider wrote...
It's interesting-- primarily because many of the same people who likely would claim sales aren't indicative of success (when their favorite game isn't selling like they think it should) are sometimes the same people who claim it is a good indicator when the numbers are evidently saying what they agree with.

He seems to be making assumptions about what we're doing, & our motivations.  Just saying.

Also, this guy's opinion should be taken into account:

David Gaider wrote...
We're well aware that people will tend to inflate their own opinion-- particularly on forums, where people will naturally seek out others who reflect that opinion back at them. It's human nature, both with regards to the positive and the negative.

A mirror.  You should invest in it.


Just kidding.  I'm just poking fun at how you characterize people who criticize.  I'm not really trying to be disagreeable for the sake of it.  I just find your posts dismissing of others' opinions sometimes funny when juxtaposed with your own posts from other topics.  No harm done. 

Modifié par Imrahil_, 28 mars 2012 - 04:45 .

[David Gaider]

Imrahil_ wrote...
Just kidding.  I'm just poking fun at how you characterize people who criticize.  I'm not really trying to be disagreeable for the sake of it.  I just find your posts dismissing of others' opinions sometimes funny when juxtaposed with your own posts from other topics.  No harm done. 

Speaking only for myself, I'm not being dismissive of anyone other than those who are already being broadly dismissive-- both of my participation in the discussion, and of those who disagree with them. I'm well aware that there are many divisive opinions at work on the forums, and beyond the fact that some people seem determined to be confrontational I'd say it's a pleasant enough atmosphere to offer some insight on topics that many here seem to appreciate-- even if I can't offer details on what I'm working on just yet.

Beyond that, I'd say passive-aggressive responses aren't really helpful. I won't be responding to you again, in case communication was actually your goal. Which, if not, is really too bad.

Modifié par David Gaider, 28 mars 2012 - 05:26 .

[Imrahil_]

David Gaider wrote...
Beyond that, I'd say passive-aggressive responses aren't really helpful. I won't be responding to you again, in case communication was actually your goal. Which, if not, is really too bad.

I don't get this at all.  Where did this come from?  From my point of view I wasn't passive-aggressive at all.  I'm genuinely curious how you read that from my posts.  You're well within your rights, of course, to not respond to me, that's not my point, but I just completely don't understand your reasoning.

If you respond to this, let me know why, at least, even if it's just in a PM.  I'm not offended or anything, just, well... completely bewildered.  I don't understand what you read in my post that you found so offensive.

Modifié par Imrahil_, 28 mars 2012 - 05:40 .

[seraphymon]

Imrahil_ wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Beyond that, I'd say passive-aggressive responses aren't really helpful. I won't be responding to you again, in case communication was actually your goal. Which, if not, is really too bad.

I don't get this at all.  Where did this come from?  From my point of view I wasn't passive-aggressive at all.  I'm genuinely curious how you read that from my posts.  You're well within your rights, of course, to not respond to me, that's not my point, but I just completely don't understand your reasoning.

If you respond to this, let me know why, at least, even if it's just in a PM.  I'm not offended or anything, just, well... completely bewildered.  I don't understand what you read in my post that you found so offensive.

kinda wondering that myself, David last line makes me think how rude of a response that kinda was to out and say "im not responding  to you anymore" and act like if you bring up somethin resonable to discuss with him too bad? really?

[Deviija]

Restraint wrote...

I believe I remember seeing David Gaider say they had a sample size in the millions, which is far more than enough.

You are correct.  He did say that. 

[Dejajeva]

Sometimes this place gives me a headache with all the bickering. Its like a family reunion. On point, Ill say that I play a human every time, and while I don't particularly care how many choices you end up giving us..please continue to make a default of each. I absolutely loved Hawkes look, both male and female, and will be disappointed if you do not do something similar again. I suppose you would just have to do that for any race, if any, you decided to include.

[Sharn01]

seraphymon wrote...

Imrahil_ wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Beyond that, I'd say passive-aggressive responses aren't really helpful. I won't be responding to you again, in case communication was actually your goal. Which, if not, is really too bad.

I don't get this at all.  Where did this come from?  From my point of view I wasn't passive-aggressive at all.  I'm genuinely curious how you read that from my posts.  You're well within your rights, of course, to not respond to me, that's not my point, but I just completely don't understand your reasoning.

If you respond to this, let me know why, at least, even if it's just in a PM.  I'm not offended or anything, just, well... completely bewildered.  I don't understand what you read in my post that you found so offensive.

kinda wondering that myself, David last line makes me think how rude of a response that kinda was to out and say "im not responding  to you anymore" and act like if you bring up somethin resonable to discuss with him too bad? really?

He was out of line, happens all the time on the forums unfortunately, he took quotes from Gaider which may be taken out of context and used them to discredit him.

I have had some pretty long conversations with Gaider in the past, I doubt he remembers them since he speaks with so many people on the forums, but I remember them.  Sometimes we agreed on stuff, and sometimes we didnt, on occasion we would even get testy with each other but it was always civil and never personally insulting.  I would suggest if you want to have a conversation with someone you try to be a bit less insulting to them, this isnt just for Devs, it goes for anyone.

[LPPrince]

Imrahil_ wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
Beyond that, I'd say passive-aggressive responses aren't really helpful. I won't be responding to you again, in case communication was actually your goal. Which, if not, is really too bad.

I don't get this at all.  Where did this come from?  From my point of view I wasn't passive-aggressive at all.  I'm genuinely curious how you read that from my posts.  You're well within your rights, of course, to not respond to me, that's not my point, but I just completely don't understand your reasoning.

If you respond to this, let me know why, at least, even if it's just in a PM.  I'm not offended or anything, just, well... completely bewildered.  I don't understand what you read in my post that you found so offensive.

I'm not gonna lie, it did come off as passive-aggressive snark.

[Mr Fixit]

LPPrince wrote...

I'm not gonna lie, it did come off as passive-aggressive snark.

And what's worse, he doesn't even realize it.

[AkiKishi]

David Gaider wrote...
It was mentioned that the new look for elves would make them potentially less popular as a player race choice. I think the fact that the old look for elves weren't an incredibly popular choice as it was is quite relevant. So it's hardly "for no reason"... which, I assume, you would have discovered for yourself had you read the posts in question.

Insofar as to what we're doing or not doing for the future of DA3, we'll discuss the details when we can actually discuss them in full-- and discuss the good news as well as the bad (depending on where you stand).

Or you could just make assumptions about what we're doing, and our motivations. Out of a sense of "playing fair", I suppose.

One thing I would like to know about the stats. Are they really because people are choosing to be something, or because they are just taking the default option presented ? If you changed the default option to Elf , would there be a lot more people playing elves ?

Soldier is by far the most popular class in ME3 . It's also the class that Shepard defaults to if you choose quick start.Is that a coincidence ? Or are people just taking the easy option as presented ?

Modifié par BobSmith101, 28 mars 2012 - 10:21 .

[Worrywort]

Restraint wrote...

 

tmp7704 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

How would you actually get into Kirkwall?

By having your relatives arrange meeting with a smuggler or mercenary group, presenting you as valuable asset they would love to have?

In other words, just like human Hawke.

So the way to have multiple races as protagonist in dragon age 2 would have been to treat them the same in every way? What is the point of all that lore they wrote about the races if the PC is just going to be above it all? That drove me crazy in origins and then at least there was a handwaved explanation about Grey Wardenhood coming before anything else, including longstanding irrational racial prejudice.

Because customization blah blah blah rpg tradition blah