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Straight femshep really got the short end of the LI stick (spoilers)


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#51
vorianxavier

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Carfax wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

As far as I know from the BSN and real life, most hardcore gamer girls are at least bisexual, myself included. Yes some males play FemShep but not all of them romance another woman. In ME3 you can get Paramour with Traynor/Liara and Kaidan/Garrus, I think 50/50 is good.


Dare I ask what evidence you have to back up your assertions that "most hardcore gamer girls are at least bisexual?"

Vast majority of people, men and women both are heterosexual, yet in your twisted logic, most gamer girls are bisexual?  Image IPB

By far the majority of people on BSN I see pining for F/F aren't women, but guys..


You started with a valid question, but your last line there seems to be the same kind of blanket statement based on assumption that SilentNukee used...

This thread does have a valid point though, it's great that nonstraight Sheps get more choice in ME3, but I didn't fully realize until now that it came at the expense of straight FemSheps. While on the one hand it's very nice to see the inclusion of exclusively gay characters, the only solution that can really make everyone happy is the "hero-sexual" route others have mentioned.

And it is indeed strange that flirting with James is basically unavoidable, yet he's unavailable. Maybe BW wanted to make a point that some of the flirting in the world doesn't actually lead to anything? There was never any conversation with him about *why* a romance couldn't happen though. As appealing as Aveline was in DA2, she had Wesley and then Donnic, so I could understand and respect why she wasn't a LI. With James it's more like "hey, here's this abruptly introduced new squadmate. He's cute and charming. YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM. Why? Because we said so."

Modifié par vorianxavier, 08 avril 2012 - 11:11 .


#52
Carfax

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vorianxavier wrote...

You started with a valid question, but your last line there seems to be the same kind of blanket statement based on assumption that SilentNukee used...


Yes, that last statement of mine was an observation I admit, but is it really incorrect?   

This thread does have a valid point though, it's great that nonstraight Sheps get more choice in ME3, but I didn't fully realize until now that it came at the expense of straight FemSheps. While on the one hand it's very nice to see the inclusion of exclusively gay characters, the only solution that can really make everyone happy is the "hero-sexual" route others have mentioned.


I don't agree with the "hero-sexual" route, especially if DA2 is to be used as an example.  The hero-sexual route is a symptom of the overall reduction in effective characterization we have been seeing in Bioware's games over the years, due to them wanting to appeal to everyone and everything.

This has led to characters even having their sexuality retconned, just to appease a few rabid fans.

And it is indeed strange that flirting with James is basically unavoidable, yet he's unavailable. Maybe BW wanted to make a point that some of the flirting in the world doesn't actually lead to anything? There was never any conversation with him about *why* a romance couldn't happen though. As appealing as Aveline was in DA2, she had Wesley and then Donnic, so I could understand and respect why she wasn't a LI. With James it's more like "hey, here's this abruptly introduced new squadmate. He's cute and charming. YOU CAN'T HAVE HIM. Why? Because we said so."


I agree, having James be unavailable to FemShep was foolish.

#53
Dyorgarel Inkin

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LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...
 because all femsheps are actually dudes in real life am I right? <_<

I am a "dude" playing a female Shepard and she is looking for a man despite her bisexuallity. She wants The Man, the only one : Cpt Anderson. Unfortunately, he is not  a romance.

#54
Aversion

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LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

If you're a straight manshep in ME3:
Ashley wants you
Diana wants you
Jack wants you
Kelly wants you
Liara wants you
Miranda wants you
Tali wants you

If you're a straight femshep in ME3:
Garrus wants you
Jacob cheats on you and gets another girl knocked up (racist stereotype much?)
Joker would rather get it on with a fembot who probably has machine gun nipples.
Kaidan wants you (but he got reconned to be bisexual now, while Ashley didn't get the same treatment)
Thane dies (though to be honest we all saw that coming, still could've given Paramour for him though)
Vega doesn't want you for some reason (despite every other non-dlc human squadmate being romanceable) 

So straight femshep is left with 1 human and 1 very non-human-like alien man, and no new straight romances.
Meanwhile lesbianshep gets 4 alive and willing women (Diana, Kelly, Liara, Traynor) to hook up with, 2 of them new, because all femsheps are actually dudes in real life am I right? <_<

That's it, after I finish ME3 with Kaidan I'm done with Bioware romances. They can cater to the homosexuals with a couple of token gay characters and scream "gender equality", while the straight female gamers are forgotten about once again...


Aint this the truth. -_-

#55
Yuqi

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Daennikus wrote...

Because Liara is the feminine archetype of the galactic hero and completes the rugged personality of Shepard. It's the easy romance choice.

But for traditionally sentimental women, Liara is no mate or partner, she's a close friend at best.


Uhm have you seen the Liara romance in ME3? She hardly fits the rugged personality type, I would dare say it's almost a role reversal.

Aversion wrote...

That's it, after I finish ME3 with Kaidan I'm done with Bioware romances. They can cater to the homosexuals with a couple of token gay characters and scream "gender equality", while the straight female gamers are forgotten about once again...



And why is it automaticly assumed that straight-female-gamers don't romance Liara? You do know there are quite a few of them that do, right?

Modifié par Yuqi, 09 avril 2012 - 01:53 .


#56
Lucky Thirteen

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Yuqi wrote...

Daennikus wrote...

Because Liara is the feminine archetype of the galactic hero and completes the rugged personality of Shepard. It's the easy romance choice.

But for traditionally sentimental women, Liara is no mate or partner, she's a close friend at best.


Uhm have you seen the Liara romance in ME3? She hardly fits the rugged personality type, I would dare say it's almost a role reversal.

Aversion wrote...

That's it, after I finish ME3 with Kaidan I'm done with Bioware romances. They can cater to the homosexuals with a couple of token gay characters and scream "gender equality", while the straight female gamers are forgotten about once again...



And why is it automaticly assumed that straight-female-gamers don't romance Liara? You do know there are quite a few of them that do, right?


1.Daennikus was saying Liara is the soft, gentle, feminine creature that makes manShep look manly and rough.

2.You're saying everyone should be happy they got Liara because a group of players are happy with Liara, when the issue is that straight-female-gamers would probably enjoy more straight romances for femShep. I've got nothing against anyone enjoying any of the gay romances, I applaud they exist and I think OP should have worded their post more carefully, but, I would have liked to have seen more shirtless men than just Kaidan.


Garrus technically isn't a romance unless you import him as a romance.

If you were an unfortunate player who has a straight femShep and was waiting for some good romantic closure with Thane or Jacob you got screwed over.

If you were hoping Joker or Vega would be available, keep dreaming.

Add to that, Kaidan could have been Virmired or if you don't trigger his romance right in ME3 you get friend zoned, so many players can completely cut him as a romance from their game themselves. I know a number of femShep players who prefered to save Ashley over Kaidan.

With all of the above conditions, a straight femShep got a parade of lesbian romances to her room. Fortunately Diana is the only one actually throwing herself at Shepard, but it's still very grating to realize there are no potential men for femShep other than Kaidan if you made the right choices.

#57
Yuqi

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Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Yuqi wrote...

Daennikus wrote...

Because Liara is the feminine archetype of the galactic hero and completes the rugged personality of Shepard. It's the easy romance choice.

But for traditionally sentimental women, Liara is no mate or partner, she's a close friend at best.


Uhm have you seen the Liara romance in ME3? She hardly fits the rugged personality type, I would dare say it's almost a role reversal.

Aversion wrote...

That's it, after I finish ME3 with Kaidan I'm done with Bioware romances. They can cater to the homosexuals with a couple of token gay characters and scream "gender equality", while the straight female gamers are forgotten about once again...



And why is it automaticly assumed that straight-female-gamers don't romance Liara? You do know there are quite a few of them that do, right?


1.Daennikus was saying Liara is the soft, gentle, feminine creature that makes manShep look manly and rough.

2.You're saying everyone should be happy they got Liara because a group of players are happy with Liara, when the issue is that straight-female-gamers would probably enjoy more straight romances for femShep. I've got nothing against anyone enjoying any of the gay romances, I applaud they exist and I think OP should have worded their post more carefully, but, I would have liked to have seen more shirtless men than just Kaidan.


Garrus technically isn't a romance unless you import him as a romance.

If you were an unfortunate player who has a straight femShep and was waiting for some good romantic closure with Thane or Jacob you got screwed over.

If you were hoping Joker or Vega would be available, keep dreaming.

Add to that, Kaidan could have been Virmired or if you don't trigger his romance right in ME3 you get friend zoned, so many players can completely cut him as a romance from their game themselves. I know a number of femShep players who prefered to save Ashley over Kaidan.

With all of the above conditions, a straight femShep got a parade of lesbian romances to her room. Fortunately Diana is the only one actually throwing herself at Shepard, but it's still very grating to realize there are no potential men for femShep other than Kaidan if you made the right choices.


I know what he/she was saying. (I probably should have put rugged shep instead of just rugged personality type.)

While I can sympathise to some degree, but I think it was clear the Thane romance was not going to last long. Jacob might have had a nicer romance if he wasn't unpopular. Should they have provided another option? Yes they should have.  But they could've included none, and that would've been worse.                                    

#58
SilentNukee

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Carfax wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

As far as I know from the BSN and real life, most hardcore gamer girls are at least bisexual, myself included. Yes some males play FemShep but not all of them romance another woman. In ME3 you can get Paramour with Traynor/Liara and Kaidan/Garrus, I think 50/50 is good.


Dare I ask what evidence you have to back up your assertions that "most hardcore gamer girls are at least bisexual?"

Vast majority of people, men and women both are heterosexual, yet in your twisted logic, most gamer girls are bisexual?  Image IPB

By far the majority of people on BSN I see pining for F/F aren't women, but guys..


It's my own personal experience.

You should check around the S/S thread and such, you will see a lot of women who like F/F... Of course if you're not into that kind of stuff, then it might be harder to discover them as you probably avoid the threads and so on. Even if men play F/F, why not? If they like it, they should be able to make it happen in their own game if they wish.

BioWare is one of the only gaming companies that include S/S and it does attact some gamers to this ideal. Even just 10% is large when taken account all the numbers.

#59
Carfax

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SilentNukee wrote...

It's my own personal experience.


Well you yourself said you were bi, so it's natural for you to find, and be in the company of other females such as yourself..

You should check around the S/S thread and such, you will see a lot of women who like F/F... Of course if you're not into that kind of stuff, then it might be harder to discover them as you probably avoid the threads and so on. Even if men play F/F, why not? If they like it, they should be able to make it happen in their own game if they wish.


You should check out the Kaidan romance thread, which is a lot longer than the S/S thread..

At any rate, I've posted many times in the S/S thread, so I know that most of the people that post in that thread are recurring posters (people like IsaacShep for instance).  I also think you underestimate, or simply don't acknowledge the demographics involved in this. 

The vast majority of Mass Effect players are heterosexual men.  The second largest group is heterosexual women, followed by gay/bi men, followed by gay/bi women.  

Gay/bi people are always going to be a small minority no matter what because they constitute a small percentage of the overall population...

BioWare is one of the only gaming companies that include S/S and it does attact some gamers to this ideal. Even just 10% is large when taken account all the numbers.


Well you certainly are optimistic aren't you?  10% would be a very high figure indeed.. 

Personally, I think more heterosexual people will use the M/M and F/F romance options than actual gays and lesbians..

Bioware knows this as well, which is why the F/F romances are in such high abundance compared to the M/M, since heterosexual men are by far, the largest consumer group for Bioware.

#60
Ottemis

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Carfax wrote...

SilentNukee wrote...

It's my own personal experience.


Well you yourself said you were bi, so it's natural for you to find, and be in the company of other females such as yourself..

Sorry to barge in, but this is horsedung. I don't have hetero printed on my head nor does Nukee have BI printed on hers. I can concurr however, that from personal experience, I seem to run into alot of BI people.

Having said that, that makes sense. Not from a gaming perspective but a pure people one. Taboo on being bi/gay disappearing slowly in some places, it's not a black and white concept, it's not a 50%/100% thing. It's a 5/95% thing aswell. Meaning, there will always be more slightly to mayoryly BI people then there will EVER be straight people. Wether they express it and act upon it is something entirely different. I am not 100% straight, I'll admit it, but I'll also never act upon bi-feelings. Not because they're not there, but because personally while I can appreciate the female form, I am not so much curious about a relationship with a female.

You should check around the S/S thread and such, you will see a lot of women who like F/F... Of course if you're not into that kind of stuff, then it might be harder to discover them as you probably avoid the threads and so on. Even if men play F/F, why not? If they like it, they should be able to make it happen in their own game if they wish.

You should check out the Kaidan romance thread, which is a lot longer than the S/S thread..

At any rate, I've posted many times in the S/S thread, so I know that most of the people that post in that thread are recurring posters (people like IsaacShep for instance).  I also think you underestimate, or simply don't acknowledge the demographics involved in this.
The vast majority of Mass Effect players are heterosexual men.  The second largest group is heterosexual women, followed by gay/bi men, followed by gay/bi women. 

A guestimate? I know I don't know, you can't possibly know. Also, 87% of all statistics are made up.

Gay/bi people are always going to be a small minority no matter what because they constitute a small percentage of the overall population...

Maybe you should try and set that idea aside, and see how many actually roll out of the woodworks. Again, you guess.

BioWare is one of the only gaming companies that include S/S and it does attact some gamers to this ideal. Even just 10% is large when taken account all the numbers.

Well you certainly are optimistic aren't you?  10% would be a very high figure indeed.. 

10% of millions isn't worth their time? It's not worth yours? I bet you they could collectively trample your house down, and I reckon that 10% can be a force to reckon with. But again, a guestimate (which also means it could be MORE then 10%).

Personally, I think more heterosexual people will use the M/M and F/F romance options than actual gays and lesbians..

Bioware knows this as well, which is why the F/F romances are in such high abundance compared to the M/M, since heterosexual men are by far, the largest consumer group for Bioware.

Wether or not that's true is no reason to rob some of their fun. However small a percentage, if you're going to cater to the minority, don't do a halfassed job.

And as to this endlessly recurring discussion, just freaking drop it already. Throwing guestimates and made up numbers in counterargument is hardly productive nor does it prove anything but some people's own ridigity of thinking.

And no, I'm not going to respond to counter-arguments. This is not worth the time. I'd say to stop beating a dead horse though, and be more tolerant and more openminded to the possibility that your guesses and less than lenient attitude are actually making the bi/gay community feel uncomfortable, not being fully accepted/recognised.

You imagine that's you, being judged and then deemed a minority that can be forgotten about. And don't say you wouldn't care, cause you'd be lying.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:09 .


#61
Aggie Punbot

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Let me just post this to make sure I've got this right.

Heterosexual male Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 7.5
Ashley
Liara
Jack
Miranda
Tali
Kelly
Samara*
Diana

Heterosexual female Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 4.5
Kaidan
Garrus
Thane
Jacob
Vega*

Homosexual male Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 2
Kaidan
Steve

Homosexual female Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 4.5
Liara
Samantha
Kelly
Samara*
Diana

So I'm sorry, who got the short end of the LI stick again?

* Not a complete romance.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 09 avril 2012 - 07:39 .


#62
Ottemis

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No, see. If you romanced Jacob or Thane in ME2 or no-one at all and say, Kaidan is dead, you don't have a straight alternative in ME3 as a female. That's what this is based off. Aside from Kaidan who can die in the first game, we have NO NEW male-femshep option in ME3. In some situations NO romance option at all.

This wouldn't be so jarring if it didn't mean everyone bar the Kaidan mancers end up playing bi or staying single.
Thane dies, Jacob cheats, Garrus can't be freshly romanced, Vega's not an option.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:18 .


#63
Aggie Punbot

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Then maybe you should have made different decisions. I would have loved to have Vega as a potential love interest, but for whatever reason he wasn't written as such. You can't really argue that straight female Shepards have had more options in the entire series than, say, homosexual male Shepards.

I did find it odd that there were no additional male LIs for ME3, but it didn't bother me. Perhaps now the people that play as straight female characters can understand how the people that play as homosexual male characters feel in almost every other game (with romance as an option) out there. Maybe now that they know what it feels like to be ignored, they'll be more sympathetic to the segment of the gaming population out there that prefers to play as homosexual male characters and will join the campaign to promote romantic equality in games that contain romance as an option.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 09 avril 2012 - 07:20 .


#64
Ottemis

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I think you should look at the situation in ME3, and stop talking. But that's just my opinion. We got shafted, this topic is about 'straight' female romances getting shafted, not about how you feel we're exaggerating, or how it's an invalid point of discussion because others got shafted more. It's not a freaking contest, so go make a topic about it.

#65
Aggie Punbot

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Point being, straight female Shepards did not get 'shafted.' They've had 125% more potential love interests in the series than homosexual male Shepards have had. If anyone has a right to complain about the lack of love interests, its those players.

#66
Ottemis

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Ugh. That die and cheat. Yeah, thanks for paying attention and reading my last post. Have fun arguing that point with yourself, because I don't feel like beating my head into a brick wall just yet today, it's still early.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:24 .


#67
K_Tabris

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TS2Aggie wrote...

Let me just post this to make sure I've got this right.

*snip*

Homosexual male Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 2
Kaidan
Steve


You're right.

I feel like a jerk for not considering the gay male gamer. This blows the OP's complaint out of the water if you ask me.

#68
Aggie Punbot

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Granted, I am absolutely appalled at how they treated Jacob Taylor in Mass Effect 3, I will give you that. And I am very, very sorry that Thanemancers were not given a chance to help Thane survive, but at least his fate was foreshadowed. I cannot fault people that don't want to romance Garrus either, because aliens aren't really my thing either.

But honestly, look at the big picture here. Straight female Shepards are at least allowed (even forced?) to flirt with James Vega in Mass Effect 3 whereas homosexual male Shepards are not. Yeah, it's a shame that there weren't anymore male love interests in ME3, but straight femShep has had a lot more opportunities and allowances than lonely gay maleShep has had.

#69
Ottemis

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NovinhaShepard wrote...

TS2Aggie wrote...

Let me just post this to make sure I've got this right.

*snip*

Homosexual male Shepards potential LIs in the Mass Effect series: 2
Kaidan
Steve


You're right.

I feel like a jerk for not considering the gay male gamer. This blows the OP's complaint out of the water if you ask me.

First off, every one of the games exist in their own right. It sucks balls gay males didn't have a continuation of a gay romance,. that they COULDN'T, yes. But even if Kaidan is dead, you get a romance in ME3, as it stands.

We don't. That's the point. If we start playing this game fresh, and we decide hey, we wanna roll with Ashley, then we can get with girls, and that's IT. We just have no other option, it's that simple.

So asmuch as gay male romances got shafted overall, when you look at it from this angle (and this angle alone) we are fooked. Even more so then they are.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:31 .


#70
Aggie Punbot

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I dearly hope you'll forgive me if I'm not breaking out the violin for your suffering, sir/ma'am.

ETA: Also: crap. I forgot about Allers. *goes to edit*

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 09 avril 2012 - 07:32 .


#71
Ottemis

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TS2Aggie wrote...

I dearly hope you'll forgive me if I'm not breaking out the violin for your suffering, sir/ma'am.

ETA: Also: crap. I forgot about Allers. *goes to edit*

I'm glad you care about everyone's suffering and can recognise that this topic is about a certain situation, and not about the overall unfairness of it all. Do you go around everywhere claiming nobody can complain because XY have it so much worse?

You realise that that doesn't actually take away their right to complain, nor does it mean they deny others having more right to complain. You however ARE saying that. Maybe you should stop and realise that.

While I don't agree with the way the Op worded it, at all. It is as I said it was, and I am not happy with that, with reason.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:36 .


#72
K_Tabris

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Ok, so if you you kill off Kaidan in ME1, and romance Thane or Jacob in ME2, there is no new straight option in ME3. I understand what you are saying,Ottemis. I am also trying not to offend you, please know that.

Unfortunately, you can't really say that each game exists in it's own right. Part of the BIG DEAL of this game series was the ability of player choice carrying over into each game. While some things worked out well, most didn't.

Fyi, I really understand where you are coming from. My canon Shepard romanced Kaidan, then Thane, and no one in ME3, because the only appealing option was to see her shower with her clothes on with Traynor... Sorry, too immersion breaking. Ugh. And as awesome as Kaidan;s romance was in ME1, Horizon still happened....idk.

They probably should have made Jame and Garrus available for a re-romance.

Edit:  Omg, Aggie, stop being so rude.  Everyone is entitled to their opinions >_>

Modifié par NovinhaShepard, 09 avril 2012 - 07:37 .


#73
Ottemis

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Yes you can, ME3 attracts new players to the series.
They exist in their own right and in continuation, this is even MORE true knowing ME1 isn't even available on one of the consoles.

But even all that is obsolete info in the end, the pure statement is:

Whether or not you started with ME3, without Kaidan (who can die in ME1 or be picked dead in the CC) you have nothing new. Thane dies, Jacob cheats, Vega/Joker/Garrus can't be romanced at all or specificly not in ME3 from scratch.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:42 .


#74
Aggie Punbot

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Look, I'm just saying that you should look on the bright side. Sure, it sucks that there were no new male love interests for straight femShep. However, you *are* allowed (and like I said earlier, forced) to flirt with Vega, which is slightly better than nothing at all (which is what lonely gay maleSheps have been forced to do for two entire games beforehand).

If anything, I'm actually still kind of pissed that they had time to shoehorn in a multiplayer element to Mass Effect 3 but did not have time to complete Vega's intended romance or furnish a coherent ending for the series. In my opinion, *that* is why you should be mad. Time enough to add a feature that a large percentage of players didn't even want but not enough time to finish the actual game itself? Jerks.

#75
K_Tabris

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I think people who play ME3 without playing the other 2 (or at the very least, ME2), are not going to be as emotionally invested in the series as people like us who have played all the way through. It's nice (I guess) of Bioware to make each game an opening point for new players, but starting on part 3 of a series is just plain ridiculous. Straight FemShep's issue is a natural consequence in this case.
It's all fine and dandy to say that each game exists in its own right, but this game was designed to reward players who played the previous installments (and not enough as it could, as it is).

As far as *new* romances go, yes, straight FemShep got the shaft. But Overall, gay maleShep had to wait until game 3, which is worse, imho.

Modifié par NovinhaShepard, 09 avril 2012 - 07:47 .