185 réponses à ce sujet

[Ottemis]

I should be mad because you assume MP being there has anything to do with Vega not being an option? I'd rather just point out how generally dis-balanced the situation is then to assume specifics I can't possibly know and then throw that at their feet.

What I've stated in here is purely how it boils down for us, I don't see a reason to voice it any other way than simply stating "Hey, under these circumstances, we have nothing".

Also, I love how I'm apparently speaking chinese. Christ almighty people, no offence, but if you're going to argue against me, note what I'm actually saying? For the love of God.

As to falling over me claiming it exists seperately, it does, I've personally seen multiple players being introduced with ME3, some going back to play the other two afterwards. This all happens, these are all angles that should be investigated.

And AGAIN, wether or not it exists seperately while also existing in continuation, you're shafted regardless. So this entire line of argumentation doesn't retract anything from the problem, just potentially adds to it. It makes it more valid, never less valid.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 07:55 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Hey, you're speaking chinese? My babelfish must be working! Say, would you mind telling me how you say the following phrase?

'I am in need of a delicious Whistle Dog for lunch. No, you may not have the cheese.'

I've always wanted to know that. You know, for reasons.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 09 avril 2012 - 07:54 .

[Carfax]

Ottemis wrote...

Having said that, that makes sense. Not from a gaming perspective but a pure people one. Taboo on being bi/gay disappearing slowly in some places, it's not a black and white concept, it's not a 50%/100% thing. It's a 5/95% thing aswell. Meaning, there will always be more slightly to mayoryly BI people then there will EVER be straight people. Wether they express it and act upon it is something entirely different. I am not 100% straight, I'll admit it, but I'll also never act upon bi-feelings. Not because they're not there, but because personally while I can appreciate the female form, I am not so much curious about a relationship with a female.

Everything you said is incorrect regarding the statistics.  If bisexuality rather than heterosexuality was the modus operandi for human beings, why has homosexuality been so frowned upon the World over for so many centuries?

There has never been a single civilization where bisexuality or homosexuality was regarded as completely normal.  It has always been taboo and subject to discrimination.

A guestimate? I know I don't know, you can't possibly know. Also, 87% of all statistics are made up.

My assertion was based on general demographics, and the fact that Bioware (a long with every other developer of serious games) obviously markets their games to men far moreso than they do women.

In fact, Bioware have never exclusively targeted their female audience until the release of the FemShep trailer this year, and it was only after a lot of brow beating from FemShep fans that they did so.

Maybe you should try and set that idea aside, and see how many actually roll out of the woodworks. Again, you guess.

Who said anything about guessing?  This is common knowledge.  If you bothered to actually research demographics, then you'd come to the same conclusion.

10% of millions isn't worth their time? It's not worth yours? I bet you they could collectively trample your house down, and I reckon that 10% can be a force to reckon with. But again, a guestimate (which also means it could be MORE then 10%).

It couldn't be 10%, because the 10% figure was based on discredited statistics by a fellow named Alfred Kinsey.  A lot of gay and bisexual people often quote the 10% figure without even realizing that the study itself was flawed and debunked.

The gay/bi population according to most modern studies is 4%..

And no, I'm not going to respond to counter-arguments. This is not worth the time. I'd say to stop beating a dead horse though, and be more tolerant and more openminded to the possibility that your guesses and less than lenient attitude are actually making the bi/gay community feel uncomfortable, not being fully accepted/recognised.

You imagine that's you, being judged and then deemed a minority that can be forgotten about. And don't say you wouldn't care, cause you'd be lying.

I find this ironic, because SilentNukee herself first brought up the aspect of the "majority" to explain why FemShep had less heterosexual romances than homosexual..

I then proceeded to correct her assertion, by showing her that gay/bi women constitute the smallest of Bioware's consumers, and that the only reason FemShep had such an abundance of gay romance options was because a not so small percentage of guys like to play as FemShep.

[Ottemis]

@Carfax
Yeah I didn't completely follow the exchange between you and Nukee, I picked up on the demographic debate.
You fail to see how your 'demographics and numbers' mean nothing at all, none of them do actually.

When you're met with aversion, mistrust and plain hate for centuries, coming out is not that attractive anymore.
Even now teens are STILL driven to suicide for being bi/gay. You want to trust your numbers? Ok. Your party. But I call bullsh*t on them, purely based on the still present oppression and discrimination.

If you want to continue pointing out the proverbial only gay person in
the room and shoving them out the door, go right ahead. I won't stop
you. My advice: don't rely on numbers, look around you in the world and see what's happening.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[Carfax]

Ottemis wrote...

@Carfax You fail to see how your 'demographics and numbers' mean nothing at all, none of them do actually.
If you want to sh*t on the little people, go right ahead.

If you want to continue pointing out the proverbial only gay person in the room and shoving them out the door, go right ahead. I won't stop you.

LOL, this is ironic.  Lets redress.  LaurenShepard-N7 made a topic about how FemShep got screwed in the heterosexual love department. 

SilentNukee replied that said that since "most" female gamers are bisexual, it made sense that a large portion of FemShep's romance options would be S/S....50/50 to quote her.

I then replied asking her for evidence, because I knew her assertion couldn't be true based on general demographics which guarantees that the heterosexual population will always be larger than the gay/bisexual one, and that the only reason why FemShep has so many S/S options is because a lot of guys also play FemShep..

So now you're angry with me for simply pointing out this truth, and are implying that I'm discriminating against gays/bisexuals because I "dared" to state that they were a minority group; although I never at any time said that gays and bisexuals shouldn't have any romances just because they are a minority.

This whole issue would not have popped up if Bioware had the sense to make Vega an LI for FemShep..

[Ottemis]

You're not grasping this, you're both wrong. You both can't know. You're arguing with me though, Nukee isn't atm. I'm not for Nukee, against you. I am pointing out to you how your specific mention of demographics mean f-all, that doesn't make Nukee's assessment right, but it does make yours wrong.

And the whole discussion is ill-advised, because you either do something based on demographics, putting certain people down, or you treat them all the same in which case numbers mean nothing. And numbers should mean nothing, but then I'd be one of those silly people that actually believes in equal treatment, no matter what flavor someone likes it in.

If you take an individual gay, bi and straight person, and you tell the first two, you can't have more because there's more of three. ALL of them would respond and say no, there's only one of me. What do we care about, how big the herd is or the individual sheep?

Shouldn't have brought up numbers as a counter argument to begin with, but that's me the purist talking.
Anyways I'm glad to hear you're not against bi/gay romances, and I apolagise for my remarks on the matter.

I hope you see though, how that topic is best left alone, not only because of the arguable validity of the numbers but also the sensitive nature of it all.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 08:27 .

[Aggie Punbot]

Has anyone pointed out that not all of the players who play as a gay or bisexual Shepard are gay or bisexual themselves (or even the same gender as their Shep)? How does that figure into the whole 'demographics' issue?

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 09 avril 2012 - 08:28 .

[Carfax]

Ottemis wrote...

And the whole discussion is ill-advised, because you either do something based on demographics, putting certain people down, or you treat them all the same in which case numbers mean nothing. And numbers should mean nothing, but then I'd be one of those silly people that actually believes in equal treatment, no matter what flavor someone likes it in.

Demographics is an unavoidable part of business.  Companies spend millions of dollars researching a plethora of ways in which to target consumers for marketing.

Typically, marketing demographics combine numerous variables, such as age, sex, income, education level, ethnic background etc...

The largest consumer group by far you may be interested to know, are women (especially married ones).....despite the fact that men supposedly earn more money.

Shouldn't have brought up numbers as a counter argument to begin with, but that's me the purist talking.
Anyways I'm glad to hear you're not agianst bi/gay romances, and I apolagise for my remarks on the matter.

You can't have a conversation like this, without bringing up the numbers.  Numbers is the reason why gay/bi men had the least amount of romances, and numbers is also the reason why heterosexual men had the greatest amount of romances.

If Bioware didn't market and develop more towards their primary consumer group, then they would have gone out of business a long time ago.

I hope you see though, how that topic is best left alone, not only because of the arguable validity of the numbers but also the sensitive nature of it all.

Sensitivity must always take a back seat to truth and fact.  When it doesn't, you end up with political correctness, which serves no one in the end since it's all about delusion and misinformation.

[Carfax]

TS2Aggie wrote...

Has anyone pointed out that not all of the players who play as a gay or bisexual Shepard are gay or bisexual themselves (or even the same gender as their Shep)? How does that figure into the whole 'demographics' issue?

I said on the previous page that I believe most people that utilize the S/S options are heterosexual.  The majority of F/F players are most likely guys, and the majority of M/M are most likely women..

[Ottemis]

Carfax wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

And the whole discussion is ill-advised, because you either do something based on demographics, putting certain people down, or you treat them all the same in which case numbers mean nothing. And numbers should mean nothing, but then I'd be one of those silly people that actually believes in equal treatment, no matter what flavor someone likes it in.

Demographics is an unavoidable part of business.  Companies spend millions of dollars researching a plethora of ways in which to target consumers for marketing.

Typically, marketing demographics combine numerous variables, such as age, sex, income, education level, ethnic background etc...

The largest consumer group by far you may be interested to know, are women (especially married ones).....despite the fact that men supposedly earn more money.

Shouldn't have brought up numbers as a counter argument to begin with, but that's me the purist talking.
Anyways I'm glad to hear you're not agianst bi/gay romances, and I apolagise for my remarks on the matter.

You can't have a conversation like this, without bringing up the numbers.  Numbers is the reason why gay/bi men had the least amount of romances, and numbers is also the reason why heterosexual men had the greatest amount of romances.

Logicly knowing this doesn't justify it, nor make it the 'right' way to deal with this. Supporting it says something about you, the consumer. You are not part of that company, the machine. You can easily have a conversation like this, aslong as you light up all these aspect and aren't surprised that when you don't, this is what happens.

If Bioware didn't market and develop more towards their primary consumer group, then they would have gone out of business a long time ago.

I hope you see though, how that topic is best left alone, not only because of the arguable validity of the numbers but also the sensitive nature of it all.

Sensitivity must always take a back seat to truth and fact.  When it doesn't, you end up with political correctness, which serves no one in the end since it's all about delusion and misinformation.

You don't speak truths and facts though, and your failure to see that makes this entire discussion pointless.
Sensitivities are exactly why these are not truth or fact in the end.

I'll repeat, you cannot trust numbers when counting an opressed and scared group of people. You think they're all gonna come out and say it? While in several parts of the world these people are wished dead, murdered, pestered into suicide and beaten to an inch of their life.

You tell me how that is a point you can argue against. I wish I was exaggerating.

Treating these things equally leaves no extra space for the though that discrimination is justified because of a bunch of numbers. It's not. What's good business is catering to everyone, not half of them.

What's morally sound is to not perpetuate the idea that because there might be 'less of something' it's worth less.
Bioware not giving this equal treatment caters to the opressing party, not the opressed. Having said that they go way further then most other companies, and I salute them for it, because yes, they are taking a risk but NOT because of numbers if you ask me.

You know what we should be talking about? Groups of people campaigning against gay/bi romances triggered by the release of ME3 now. Boycotting this game because of it. Catering to the minority is not bad for business, our own society is.

Anyways, veering way off topic.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 09:19 .

[Tup3x]

I think that BioWare screwed this one. Not an issue to me since my Shepard is single but some really wanted new LIs in ME3. Two females and Chobot does not make sense to me (which also means that there's no options for my Shepard anyway since she is straight as one can be).

[Jadebaby]

I just don't get why Vega wasn't one, seems stupid to me.

[Wulfram]

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I just don't get why Vega wasn't one, seems stupid to me.

Because he's all mouth and no trousers

[Carfax]

Ottemis wrote...

Logicly knowing this doesn't justify it, nor make it the 'right' way to deal with this. Supporting it says something about you, the consumer. You are not part of that company, the machine. You can easily have a conversation like this, aslong as you light up all these aspect and aren't surprised that when you don't, this is what happens.

It does justify it, because BioWare needs money to stay afloat and make more games.  If Bioware didn't practice focused marketing and development (like every other game developer), then they would have gone out of business long ago and there wouldn't be a Mass Effect game.

As such, Bioware over the years has definitely expanded their development focus to include smaller demographic groups such as LGBT people.

Heterosexual men still comprise their largest demographic group by far though, which is reflected in the Mass Effect series and other Bioware games.

I'll repeat, you cannot trust numbers when counting an opressed and scared group of people. You think they're all gonna come out and say it? While in several parts of the world these people are wished dead, murdered, pestered into suicide and beaten to an inch of their life.

 
I'll say that LGBT have more freedoms in the Western developed World than in any other part of the World.  While there is still a lot of discrimination against them, the vast majority of them live their lives in peace just like everyone else unlike LGBT in Iran or Uganda.

Also, while it would be extremely difficult to ascertain an exact figure for the amount of LGBT, it's not difficult to estimate them.

The 4% figure I cited earlier is fairly repetitive across nations in fact in studies that use random sampling.

Treating these things equally leaves no extra space for the though that discrimination is justified because of a bunch of numbers. It's not. What's good business is catering to everyone, not half of them.

Catering to everyone is not feasible, due to resource limitations.  These games cost a lot of money to develop, so resources and funding has to be allocated as efficiently as possible.

Why spend time and money developing gay romances, when only a very small portion of your consumer base is interested in them?

Thats the kind of logic which prevented M/M romances from being in the first two ME games..

What's morally sound is to not perpetuate the idea that because there might be 'less of something' it's worth less.
Bioware not giving this equal treatment caters to the opressing party, not the opressed. Having said that they go way further then most other companies, and I salute them for it, because yes, they are taking a risk but NOT because of numbers if you ask me.

You're making this into a social rights issue, when instead, it's all about the money.. 

You know what we should be talking about? Groups of people campaigning against gay/bi romances triggered by the release of ME3 now. Boycotting this game because of it. Catering to the minority is not bad for business, our own society is.

Anyways, veering way off topic.

Like I said, homosexuality has always been regarded as taboo, so of course lots of people will be upset that it's now being featured in games..

[Jadebaby]

Wulfram wrote...

Jade8aby88 wrote...

I just don't get why Vega wasn't one, seems stupid to me.

Because he's all mouth and no trousers

Like he'd have a say if Shepard jumped his bones.....

[NM7]

The point stated in the OP is that a female Shepard has very few male love interest options in ME3. Which is completely true. If Kaiden is dead in your save and you didn't romance Garrus in ME2, then only options available are females.

Even if you go back and play the previous two games you will still only have those two options come ME3 because of the way Jacob and Thane were written. At the end of the day that's not a great deal of choice in the best case scenario, and zero options in the worst. Someone playing a Male Shepard can't get in to a situation where the only available romance options are male, yet playing a female Shepard it's very easy to get in to a situation where only female romance options are available.

Saying that another group of people had it even worse so you can't complain is a bit of a silly counter argument in my opinion. By that logic no one should be able to complain about anything as there is always someone in a worse situation.

Obviously money is a big factor when creating something like a game (as there is only so much available), meaning only a certain amount of content can be created. However with games like RPGs where the developer is asking you to create a character in their game world and then make your own choices about who that character is, the content should cover as many bases as possible. Just because one group consists of fewer people, than another doesn't mean you shouldn't cater for them.

Games are still considered the stomping ground of males between 16 - 34 years of age by some people, which is complete rubbish of course. Plenty of females play games and the content of games like Mass Effect reflect that, as BioWare go out of their way to include the option to play as a female character in their games and add unique content for those that do.

Gender and/or sexual preferrence shouldn't be used as a valid reason for ignoring a group of people, or used to validate why one group has no right to complain over another.

[SilentNukee]

I love you Ottemis.

[SinnSly]

Well Liara does fall in love with Shep regardless of gender =l

I mean I'm glad Liara falls for FemShep or I'd of fallen outta interest with ME a long time ago..

[Daennikus]

Ottemis wrote...

Sensitivity must always take a back seat to truth and fact.  When it doesn't, you end up with political correctness, which serves no one in the end since it's all about delusion and misinformation.
You don't speak truths and facts though, and your failure to see that makes this entire discussion pointless.
Sensitivities are exactly why these are not truth or fact in the end.

I'll repeat, you cannot trust numbers when counting an opressed and scared group of people. You think they're all gonna come out and say it? While in several parts of the world these people are wished dead, murdered, pestered into suicide and beaten to an inch of their life.

You tell me how that is a point you can argue against. I wish I was exaggerating.

Treating these things equally leaves no extra space for the though that discrimination is justified because of a bunch of numbers. It's not. What's good business is catering to everyone, not half of them.

What's morally sound is to not perpetuate the idea that because there might be 'less of something' it's worth less.
Bioware not giving this equal treatment caters to the opressing party, not the opressed. Having said that they go way further then most other companies, and I salute them for it, because yes, they are taking a risk but NOT because of numbers if you ask me.

You know what we should be talking about? Groups of people campaigning against gay/bi romances triggered by the release of ME3 now. Boycotting this game because of it. Catering to the minority is not bad for business, our own society is.

Anyways, veering way off topic.

I commend you for this post and hope more will stumble upon your words. It may seem off-topic, but aren't women treated as a minority, regardless of their numbers or their sexuality? 

That being said, it hurts to see that self-respecting women will never get a break, not even in their leisure time with video games. You'll say that they're given plenty of freedom of character in ME, but you still have to endure the sight of male-oriented graphics when it comes to your avatar's body. 

Modifié par Daennikus, 09 avril 2012 - 02:13 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

Hadeedak wrote...

Honestly, I wouldn't appreciate Liara any more (AS A ROMANTIC INTEREST, SHE'S A GREAT FRIEND) or Thane less if they genderswapped.

Okay, this is a little OT, but... Really? I think just switching their genders would change their dynamics a lot. I like neither of them as characters, I feel they both rely too heavily on stereotypes. Just the swapping of gender would fix a lot of my problems with them. I really wish we got a nerdy boy LI. And a middle-aged, stoic killer-with-a-heart-of-gold that happens to be a woman? Now that would be something different. Well, 'she' would basically be Samara... But Samara was awesome.

Back on-topic, I agree that they got the short end of the stick. BioWare may not have acknowledged M/M until the latest game, but at least they got two options as opposed to straight FemShep's one.

Modifié par Aris Ravenstar, 09 avril 2012 - 02:45 .

[Xeranx]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

I think people who play ME3 without playing the other 2 (or at the very least, ME2), are not going to be as emotionally invested in the series as people like us who have played all the way through. It's nice (I guess) of Bioware to make each game an opening point for new players, but starting on part 3 of a series is just plain ridiculous. Straight FemShep's issue is a natural consequence in this case.
It's all fine and dandy to say that each game exists in its own right, but this game was designed to reward players who played the previous installments (and not enough as it could, as it is).

As far as *new* romances go, yes, straight FemShep got the shaft. But Overall, gay maleShep had to wait until game 3, which is worse, imho.

I wanted to comment on this because the statement of "which is worse" really is a non-factor.

Up until ME3 it was implied that male Shepard would have no male/male option.  Given that this was an implied fact that turned out to rendered null with ME3, there's no point in talking about how a gay male Shepard had it worse.  What the OP pointed out is what was established from the beginning.  

Female Shepard had, almost, an equal number of female/male pairings to male Shepard's male/female pairings.  And even if the numbers didn't match up, she still had a significant amount even though most were alien while most romances were human for male.
 
ME: Male Shepard - Ashley, LIara // Female Shepard - Kaidan
ME2: Male Shepard - Jack, MIranda, Tali, and Liara if imported // Female Shepard - Jacob, Thane, Garrus

So to have female Shepard only able to have a male romance option if imported means that there was no care given to what was established from the beginning: that female Shepard have a substantial (or close enough ) male population of romances to pick from.

You know, after looking at this, one could say that female Shepard has been getting left behind from the beginning, but that isn't what the thread is about.

Another aside: the lesbian option with Traynor doesn't get any final conversation before the end, so there's still an issue there.

[Carfax]

Akari Tenshi wrote...

Games are still considered the stomping ground of males between 16 - 34 years of age by some people, which is complete rubbish of course. Plenty of females play games and the content of games like Mass Effect reflect that, as BioWare go out of their way to include the option to play as a female character in their games and add unique content for those that do.

Define "plenty of females." 

The majority of female gamers are concentrated in the casual gaming market and MMOs, so most of them do not play large budget AAA games like Mass Effect, Call of Duty, BF3, Crysis etc...

If women were a significant percentage of the market for these games, then why has Bioware (or other developers) been so reluctant to spend any resources marketing towards them? 

You think developers are stupid?  Women are the single largest consumer group, so if developers believed money could be made from targeting them, they would do so believe me.

But they don't, so something must be stopping them. 

Gender and/or sexual preferrence shouldn't be used as a valid reason for ignoring a group of people, or used to validate why one group has no right to complain over another.

Gender and sexual preference are both variables that can be used for targeting certain demographics.

If a developer believes money can be made by targeting women and LGBT people, then they will spend the marketing and development resources to do so.

The fact that Bioware does it (unlike most other developers), means they believe it's worth investing resources to reach out to these demographic groups.

However, the resources they invest for those two demographic groups isn't nearly as much as for their primary demographic group, which is males between the ages of 18 and 34.

[Daennikus]

Carfax wrote...

The majority of female gamers are concentrated in the casual gaming market and MMOs, so most of them do not play large budget AAA games like Mass Effect, Call of Duty, BF3, Crysis etc...

And those who do play the games you mentioned are generally content with what they're given as non-gendered gamers, some of them even associate as masculine in an intellectual way because that's how they enjoy gaming. Some females just want to kick some ass and could care less about being represented in the industry. 

[NM7]

Carfax wrote...

Define "plenty of females." 

The majority of female gamers are concentrated in the casual gaming market and MMOs, so most of them do not play large budget AAA games like Mass Effect, Call of Duty, BF3, Crysis etc...

If women were a significant percentage of the market for these games, then why has Bioware (or other developers) been so reluctant to spend any resources marketing towards them? 

You think developers are stupid?  Women are the single largest consumer group, so if developers believed money could be made from targeting them, they would do so believe me.

But they don't, so something must be stopping them.

Gender and sexual preference are both variables that can be used for targeting certain demographics.

If a developer believes money can be made by targeting women and LGBT people, then they will spend the marketing and development resources to do so.

The fact that Bioware does it (unlike most other developers), means they believe it's worth investing resources to reach out to these demographic groups.

However, the resources they invest for those two demographic groups isn't nearly as much as for their primary demographic group, which is males between the ages of 18 and 34.

This is a chicken and egg way of thinking. Females don't buy games so just make games for males! If you don't make content for a wide audience then that audience will never grow beyond what it already has. The hardcore gaming market is tiny in the grand scheme of things. By your logic there's no point making a AAA game as the group it's aimed at is too small compared to those for MMOs or casual games. Yet look at the money Nintendo raked in by appealing to other demographics other than the typical male gamer.

Anyway this is getting way of what this thread is supposed to be about. Just because one demographic is smaller than another doesn't mean that other group doesn't have the right to complain when they get the short end of the stick, or should be ignored and told; "You're not worth the effort, be grateful for what you got!".

Modifié par Akari Tenshi, 09 avril 2012 - 06:59 .

[Hadeedak]

Hey, Samara and Thane are two of my favorites. And ME1 Joker and Liara had a lot in common. But I digress.

It's a pity Joker and Vega weren't on the table, and in both cases, sort of tease femShep with the possibility before the shutdown. Though the Vega "You ever going to make good on all this flirting?" and terrified backoff was perfect in my playthrough, because that Shepard had just been dipsmooched by Garrus. And no one wants to anger Garrus.

But I do plan on having more than one Shepard make it through three... So more choices would rock. And it's a pity there's fewer for femShep, period.