185 réponses à ce sujet

[karushna5]

Carfax wrote...

Everything you said is incorrect regarding the statistics.  If bisexuality rather than heterosexuality was the modus operandi for human beings, why has homosexuality been so frowned upon the World over for so many centuries?

There has never been a single civilization where bisexuality or homosexuality was regarded as completely normal.  It has always been taboo and subject to discrimination.

This is highly untrue. Persian Empire it was popular and highly encouraged to sleep with men.

Even medieval middle east is famous for the love poetry and stories of men together.

While in Ancient India did criminalize it some the act was overlooked and even famous temples today have ancient carvings of men and women engaged in homosexual acts.

Ancient Greek culture called it the highest love.

Alexander the Great who conquered a HUGE portion of the world adored his man and other men. The Theban band was a celebrated bunch of warriors made completely of lovers. Even Sparta engaged in homosexual love.

The samurai period of Japan the question wouldn't be why a Shogun slept with men, but why do you NOT sleep with men.

North American tribes before Europeans came called them wise men and women. They were prized spouses and great leaders of their people.

Even the word Shaman is thought to translate to She-man. Religious leaders around the world have been transgendered, lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

[Carfax]

Akari Tenshi wrote...

This is a chicken and egg way of thinking. Females don't buy games so just make games for males! If you don't make content for a wide audience then that audience will never grow beyond what it already has. The hardcore gaming market is tiny in the grand scheme of things. By your logic there's no point making a AAA game as the group it's aimed at is too small compared to those for MMOs or casual games. Yet look at the money Nintendo raked in by appealing to other demographics other than the typical male gamer.

I wasn't saying developer shouldn't pander to female gamers.  I'm just stating the reality of business.

AAA games with violent themes like Mass Effect, Call of Duty, Crysis etc have always been male dominated, and probably always will be.  Women en masse just don't have much interest in playing those kinds of games..

As for Nintendo, their sales figures have tapered off dramatically in 2011 and 2012. 

Link

The article cites a shift in the market for casual gamers:

Disappointing sales hinted at a deeper, and for Nintendo, threatening market shift: casual gamers are abandoning specialised game hardware such as the Wii and the 3DS’s popular predecessor, the DS, in favour of playing on smartphones and tablets.

So as you can see, casual gamers are unreliable.  They are a much larger market than serious gamers for certain (which was how the Wii became wildly successful initially), but they are also far more fickle and less likely to spend a significant amount of their income on games.  In the long run it's better for Nintendo to focus on the smaller but more dedicated serious gamers that are willing to spend a lot more money on gaming, and the Wii U seems to be an indication that they understand this since it's a much more capable gaming platform than the Wii in terms of raw performance..

Anyway this is getting way of what this thread is supposed to be about. Just because one demographic is smaller than another doesn't mean that other group doesn't have the right to complain when they get the short end of the stick, or should be ignored and told; "You're not worth the effort, be grateful for what you got!".

What we're discussing is inextricably related to what the OP was saying..  Ultimately, market forces and demographics are what determine who developers target their games to the most, whether it's men, women, LGBT or heterosexuals.

[Carfax]

karushna5 wrote...

This is highly untrue. Persian Empire it was popular and highly encouraged to sleep with men.

Even medieval middle east is famous for the love poetry and stories of men together.

Ancient cultures such as Persia mirrored what was seen in Ancient Greece, in that pederasty was tolerated to a certain degree and with restrictions (the fact that premarital relationships between men and women was very taboo contributed to the popularity of pederasty no doubt), but homosexual relationships between adult men was frowned upon since men were eventually expected to marry and father children.

Modern day Afghanistan has retained this twisted outlook to this day apparently.

Ancient Greek culture called it the highest love.

And Rome called it a degenerate Greek practice. 

Anyway, the popularity of pederasty and "male love" declined dramatically during the Hellenistic period, in which women gained greater social standing and became mens' primary romantic interest......as they should be.

It's a fact that the prevalency of male homosexuality/pederasty in a particular society is directly tied to the social standing of that society's female population.

The lower the social standing of women, the greater the incidence and popularity of male homosexuality/pederasty.  Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are perfect examples of this.

Alexander the Great who conquered a HUGE portion of the world adored his man and other men.

He adored his man and other men so much, that he married three women and had numerous mistresses and concubines.. 
 

The Theban band was a celebrated bunch of warriors made completely of lovers.

This one is true.
 

Even Sparta engaged in homosexual love.

Again, with restrictions much like Greece.

The samurai period of Japan the question wouldn't be why a Shogun slept with men, but why do you NOT sleep with men.

North American tribes before Europeans came called them wise men and women. They were prized spouses and great leaders of their people.

Even the word Shaman is thought to translate to She-man. Religious leaders around the world have been transgendered, lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

All the rest of these examples are much the same as Ancient Greece, in that homosexuality in the form of pederasty was tolerated, but with restrictions.

[Ottemis]

@Carfax:
Something 'always having been taboo' has worth how? Does that justify discrimination? I'm not quite getting why you're still going on about this.

Are you saying, because it was never fully accepted it should remain taboo for a reason?
I surely hope not. It's archaic.

Also, this derails the thread.

Modifié par Ottemis, 09 avril 2012 - 11:57 .

[Jestina]

Pretty much all you have to choose from is Jacob. I never liked Kaidan in ME1 and now that he wants to get nailed by maleshep, i'm even more squicked by the character.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I don't understand how Kaidan being interested in men would be a problem. He doesn't ever bring it up at all with femShep and it just has no effect on her at all. It's in a time period where it just doesn't matter. So why would he even bring it up at all and why would she care. Well, unless she wants to watch him get it on with another dude. That's always cool.

[Daennikus]

Since we've hit the historical aspect of this discussion, I hope you guys know that everything for non-heteros was all fine and well before Christianity came along?

Off-topic aside, I'm sure that crew members having relationships amongst eachother (not with Shepard) would have been interesting for celibate people. I mean non-sexuals.

Modifié par Daennikus, 10 avril 2012 - 04:52 .

[SilentK]

Jestina wrote...

Pretty much all you have to choose from is Jacob. I never liked Kaidan in ME1 and now that he wants to get nailed by maleshep, i'm even more squicked by the character.

I have no problems with both BroShep and FemShep being able to romance the same LI, that's just good resource-management to me. Wish they could have given us Vega if they were so intent on removing Jacob and Thane. Bad things can happen, fine. But at least give us something new then.

Or let me fight for my Jacob... but don't see that happening.

[ADLegend21]

Jacob was destroy on purpose by the writing team. You ahve no say whatsoever in what happens to him. he abandon's you and then says you didn't really love him, you loved the Normandy and Brynne Tells you the same AND YOU CAN'T HARM HER LIKE YOU CAN WITH A DEFENSELESS REPORTER WHO PISSES YOU OFF. I will always hate Brynne, even if they give Jacob a full romance path which I KNOW they won't because the majority of the fan base thinks he's boring a the ME team is too LAZY to do anything about it. I could write a better Jacob than that crap that showed up on my disc.

[karushna5]

Carfax wrote...

karushna5 wrote...

The samurai period of Japan the question wouldn't be why a Shogun slept with men, but why do you NOT sleep with men.

North American tribes before Europeans came called them wise men and women. They were prized spouses and great leaders of their people.

Even the word Shaman is thought to translate to She-man. Religious leaders around the world have been transgendered, lesbian, gay, or bisexual.

All the rest of these examples are much the same as Ancient Greece, in that homosexuality in the form of pederasty was tolerated, but with restrictions.

Berdache practice and the love between samurai was honored also berdache was not restricted it was something that you were. Pederasty was not the case in India, shamans.

Many famous men and women throughout history have been honored and homosexual. It is considered wrong because it is different from the majority. Whenever any majority meets a minority very different from them two things usually happen they are either revered or reviled.

In a democracy where the tyranny of the majority and minority are kept in check things happen. Like compromise and judging a person by their actions. Two people in love is... two people in love. Two people who don't belong together are... two people who don't belong together. As long as they are consenting adults, why care?

Part of the queer community and I see... breakups, drama, anger, grief, flippancy, hatred. They certainly are no better than straight relationships, especially at the stigma it can cause. But as someone who has seen life I have seen straight people and there are... breakups, drama, anger, grief, flippancy, hatred. And once in a blue moon when the sky lines up and you squint hard, someone finds love.

Seen it once for each. gay and straight. And that once is worth it all.

Modifié par karushna5, 10 avril 2012 - 09:11 .

[Carfax]

Ottemis wrote...

Are you saying, because it was never fully accepted it should remain taboo for a reason?
I surely hope not. It's archaic.

No.  It's obvious that a culture or Society's views can change over time.  Interracial relationship are a prime example, and now we have gay marriages in certain countries, states..

The reason why I brought that up, was as a response to your assertion that bisexuality is the modus operandi for human beings..  Remember, you said:

Meaning, there will always be more slightly to mayoryly BI people then there will EVER be straight people

If bisexuality is the natural state in human beings as you suggested, then why has such behaviour been frowned upon throughout most of human history?

So evidently, either every man and woman on Earth is repressing their bisexual nature for some reason (highly unlikely), or bisexuality/homosexuality is a sexuality that is limited to a small percentage of the human race (much more likely, and this is backed up by numerous studies)..

[Carfax]

Daennikus wrote...

Since we've hit the historical aspect of this discussion, I hope you guys know that everything for non-heteros was all fine and well before Christianity came along?

Not really..  Homosexuality was always controversial and taboo well before Christianity had found it's root.  An example of this, is this famous quote by Plato:

"Homosexuality," Plato wrote, "is regarded as shameful by barbarians and by those who live under despotic governments just as philosophy is regarded as shameful by them, because it is apparently not in the interest of such rulers to have great ideas engendered in their subjects, or powerful friendships or passionate love-all of which homosexuality is particularly apt to produce."

With this quote, Plato references barbarian or non Greek cultures as regarding homosexuality as shameful.  The Romans also expressed similar sentiments depending on the era..

[Carfax]

karushna5 wrote...

Berdache practice and the love between samurai was honored also berdache was not restricted it was something that you were. Pederasty was not the case in India, shamans.

I'll concede the Native Americans, but pederasty was still a central part of the Samurai culture..  As for India, after a quick bout of google I haven't been able to find anything in their ancient culture expressly condemning or supporting homosexuality.

In a democracy where the tyranny of the majority and minority are kept in check things happen. Like compromise and judging a person by their actions. Two people in love is... two people in love. Two people who don't belong together are... two people who don't belong together. As long as they are consenting adults, why care?

Who says I care?  Throughout this entire discussion, I have not once stated my personal views on homosexuality.

But if you want to know, I think homosexuality is brought about by an exposure of the fetus to imbalanced sex hormones in the womb during development.  The intra uterine sex hormone theory is the only one which accounts for the slight genetic factor, and why homosexuality is more common in men than in women.  It also explains the much higher rate of sexual inversion among homosexuals.   As such, it's clearly natural and therefore homosexuals/bisexuals should NOT be persecuted for their lifestyle.

However, it's also an abnormal condition brought about by a specific cause that should be studied and researched by Scientists.  Will it be possible to ever cure homosexuality?  Probably not, since sex hormones have tremendous power to shape the fetus's physiology and the changes are pretty much permanent.

I think it will one day be possible to screen for the cause of the imbalanced hormones, and correct it though.

[Hadeedak]

As fascinating as this is, female Shepard is A) female and this doesn't have much to do with her lack of male options.

She also has fewer options than male Shepard straight up.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 10 avril 2012 - 08:18 .

[Jestina]

You have freaky aliens to choose from, or Jacob. If I were to go alien, I would want something like Wrex...but he's not an option.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...

I'm just stating the reality of business.

Which class is your Shep Carfax?

[Biotic_Warlock]

Erm... Femshep had, let's see...
Thane, Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob...
Or Liara, Samara or Trayner...

Who has the short end of the stick now?

Not to mention Mshep
Miranda, Liara, Samara, Ashley, Jack...
Gay shep? Kaidan or Cortez.

Hello...? Unfair much?

[Twilight_Princess]

Biotic_Warlock wrote...

Erm... Femshep had, let's see...
Thane, Kaidan, Garrus, Jacob...
Or Liara, Samara or Trayner...

Who has the short end of the stick now?

Not to mention Mshep
Miranda, Liara, Samara, Ashley, Jack...
Gay shep? Kaidan or Cortez.

Hello...? Unfair much?

First the topic is about straight femsheps, so it's kind of odd to bring up the female options

Second, two of her male romances got nuked from orbit (no paramour achievement)

so actually hetro femshep ends up with the same amount as gay manshep. Gay manshep however can romance both his options at the start of ME3,  so for someone just starting ME3 Kaidan better be alive or else hetro femshep has NO ONE


*edit*


Also I find it strange that some people (in their own way) want femshep players to STFU about this because "it could be worse"? Really? So everything else that doesn't criticize the ending shouldn't be discussed then? Because to some, anything that doesn't address fixing the ending is a wasted complaint. No one here has said "OMG femshep got the worst treatment compared to everything else in the game" no, all I see here is people talking about one problem, that's it. Doesn’t make it any less valid just because some people think there are “worse” problems to talk about. 

and the topic is about straight femshep options, if anyone thinks there are more unfair things to talk about then make your own topic about it instead of railroading this one.

Modifié par Hyrule_Gal, 11 avril 2012 - 12:35 .

[TKDECH]

Aver88 wrote...

Yeah, I would not count Jack as romance in ME3. Romance with her is 8 (!) lines long.

Not to one-up anybody, but I romanced Thane and I only got one real conversation with him which wasn't really different compared to somebody that didn't romance him. I'm disappointed, I didn't think Thane would get so ignored.

So since I romanced Thane in ME2, the only option for romance (I'm a straight femshep) was Kaidan. I don't mind Kaidan, but he is so normal and he doesn't really have any interesting conflicts in his life. Plus he was hardly loyal to you, what happened on Horizon made me dislike him quite a bit.

I'm not sure what happened for femsheps in ME3. It's a mystery to me, they could have continued Jacob and gave you a quest to save Thane. Both situations were completely out of character if you romanced either of those two.

[SugarChic]

I hate that Liara's romance is being forced down your throat so much throughout the game. At first I was okay with it because I was like, "Well, Liara is a good friend of my FemShep."

But then all the romances were lacking... even Garrus' romance scene before the last mission was less emotional than in ME2. In ME2, there was no sex like with Miranda or Jacob, but at least they had a sweet and emotional moment. In ME3, he just enters the cabin, implies he wants to get it on, and that's it. He talks to her afterward, but every romance scene has the "after sexy time talk."

I feel sorry for all the other FemSheps who romanced Thane as well. Losing your LI halfway through the game without even having any real tender moment with him... that's LAME.

I don't know why Bioware decided to neglect the other romances but develop Liara's o much. How can any romance be "canon" in a game that's meant for the PLAYER to choose? It doesn't make sense.

[DemonRisingSun]

LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

If you're a straight manshep in ME3:
Ashley wants you
Diana wants you
Jack wants you
Kelly wants you
Liara wants you
Miranda wants you
Tali wants you

If you're a straight femshep in ME3:
Garrus wants you
Jacob cheats on you and gets another girl knocked up (racist stereotype much?)
Joker would rather get it on with a fembot who probably has machine gun nipples.
Kaidan wants you (but he got reconned to be bisexual now, while Ashley didn't get the same treatment)
Thane dies (though to be honest we all saw that coming, still could've given Paramour for him though)
Vega doesn't want you for some reason (despite every other non-dlc human squadmate being romanceable) 

I wrote the following Romance Epilogue for Thane following this story arc: 
http://collegeage.wo.../soldier-class/ 

http://collegeage.wo...mance-epilogue/ 

[merylisk]

I mean, even if you don't count Allers, Dudeshep still gets Ashley, Liara, and Tali, where Femshep only gets Garrus and Kaidan. And Garrus and Kaidan can both be dead in ME3!

They should have just made Vega romanceable. I totally assumed he was, I'm really not sure why he wasn't.

[Tyrium]

It does seem really odd. I hadn't considered it, since I romance Garrus in ME2 and that works really well in ME3, but yeah, he was genuinely my only option (since I Virmire Kaidan) and there are no new men. Hmmn. I guess they are catering more to the male gamers.

I don't think it's really related to the inclusion of same sex romances though. In my opinion, Diana should never have been romanceable (by either gender), and those resources put into Vega for F!Shep.

It seems very odd that Shep has more lesbian options than straight, but we do have Garrus and Kaidan that can continue to the end. There should be an option for a straight F!Shep that does not import a save and saves Ash though.

I don't think it was deliberate though, I think Bioware just didn't think about it, honestly.

[Ottemis]

Carfax wrote...
*snip*
However, it's also an abnormal condition brought about by a specific cause that should be studied and researched by Scientists.  Will it be possible to ever cure homosexuality?  Probably not, since sex hormones have tremendous power to shape the fetus's physiology and the changes are pretty much permanent.

I think it will one day be possible to screen for the cause of the imbalanced hormones, and correct it though.

I don't think anyone wants to be cured of something they don't think to be suffering under.
And if they are suffering under it, it's because of the way it's recieved by their surroundings and stigma's and taboo's put on the idea of bi and homosexuality. Not so much the feeling in itself for the same sex, because it's not any less pure than those of hetero-sexuals. Love is love is love, it's that simple. (or should be)

And honestly, what's the downside? More babies/kids being adopted and then raised in an environment that's friendly to diversity in being? Sounds horrible. Absolutely ghastly.

Modifié par Ottemis, 11 avril 2012 - 09:47 .

[Tup3x]

^^adoption waiting times are horrible long already for those (hetero) couples who can not have child of their own. (My only cousin was adopted by the way).

But anyway, this thread is way off the rails. This all does not have anything to do with the topic.