185 réponses à ce sujet

[leighzard]

IsaacShep wrote...

Carfax wrote...

In other words, what I'm saying is that if there is a way to avoid having your child grow up to be gay, people are going to take advantage of it no matter what

And there will be ALWAYS children born without any intervention from parents even when we reach age of extensive 'child DNA planning' which means bad news for you. Gay people will always exist and you will deal

Why would you want you child to grow up not having a choice of who to love?  Why would you deprive the world of the rich individual variation that makes humanity great?  Even with DNA planning, I can't homosexuality going away.  I hope I'm right.  I think it's a good thing.

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

It's a perfect analogy. Variation and choices is what makes RPGs different. You can't just cherry pick "well I'm all for variation but only variation I like".

I think we need to clarify a few things.  You analogized class variation with my contention that Bioware limits focused devlopment for females and sexual minorities because they are much smaller demographic groups in Bioware's consumer market.

That analogy is erroneous however, because class variation is a major feature of RPG titles....including Mass Effect.  Limiting Mass Effect to the Soldier class would have been an exceptionally foolish mistake on Bioware's part if they were to ever do such a thing. 

The romances however (both gay and straight) aren't a major feature of RPG titles, and in fact, aren't even a major part of the ME series since they are very limited in scope and completely optional.

Carfax wrote...

And there will be ALWAYS children born without any intervention from parents even when we reach age of extensive 'child DNA planning' which means bad news for you. Gay people will always exist and you will deal

As usual IsaacShep, you invest too much emotions into discussions of this nature.  You assume I'm trying to get rid of gays, when in fact, I'm just pointing out a few simple observations that will likely become true one day because of human nature.

I also find it curious that although homosexuality is an abnormal condition brought about by an as of yet unspecified cause(s) (although the evidence is leaning towards intra uterine hormone imbalances with a genetic co-factor), you are acting as though it's a positive and should be retained by mankind. 

Isn't that a bit narcissistic?

[Carfax]

Jilinna wrote...

Usually I do not engage in such discussions on the forums but I find that statement to be highly offensive and  it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You need to accept that there will always be people that want options in games that you don`t agree with. Whether they are a majority or not they have as much of a right to content as you, no matter what numbers say.

Perhaps you should have read the entire thread instead of just one post.  I haven't argued against the inclusion of S/S romances in Mass Effect at any time during this thread.

Although I find your logic to be naive.  I don't know what World you live in, but Bioware is a business, and their development model is dictated by their consumer market, of which the largest demographic group by far is heterosexual males (which is reflected in the development of all their games).

This isn't a social rights issue, and to pretend that it is, is disingenuous to say the least.

A taboo can always become a norm and vis-versa. It is that kind of attitude that continues that taboo, educate children and adults to be accepted of others and slowly the taboo is broken.

The taboo against homosexuality has existed for as long as humans have been around..  Regardless of what I think, it won't be going away any time soon.
 

Numbers never stopped anyone from fighting for equality from the woman`s movement and beyond and they will not stop because they are not the majority.

 
Comparing the gay rights movement to the womens' movement is absurd.

I am done. I do not want to derail the topic any more then it has been. You are way off topic regardless and you should stop further discussion on the topic in a thread that was created to highlight how a straight femshep has less LI options then a straight maleshep.

If people don't know by now why hetero FemShep has less LI options than hetero MaleShep, then they are stupid...

[OliviavdB]

I agree with OP. I love the ME series and have done two playthroughs of the third game, which means I'm out of options for future male LI's. I simply just don't WANT to join Traynor in the shower, dammit.

While I think that the main focus for DLC undoubtedly should be the ending I would have loved to see another male LI (I guess that means Vega, though he's not my type). A quarian male LI would have been awesome, though I guess that isn't possible for ME3 (ME4, maybe? ).

[Visii]

OliviavdB wrote...

I agree with OP. I love the ME series and have done two playthroughs of the third game, which means I'm out of options for future male LI's. I simply just don't WANT to join Traynor in the shower, dammit.

While I think that the main focus for DLC undoubtedly should be the ending I would have loved to see another male LI (I guess that means Vega, though he's not my type). A quarian male LI would have been awesome, though I guess that isn't possible for ME3 (ME4, maybe? ).

They could also, uhm, FIX the romances they broke... just a thought before adding even more...

[OliviavdB]

Visii wrote...

They could also, uhm, FIX the romances they broke... just a thought before adding even more...

Like Thane and Jacob? I would have loved it if they added to the dialouge with Thane before he died, but it was still some pretty powerful scenes with him. And Jacob is a dead end since he has a new woman and a baby on the way. Were those the two you were referring to?

[Most Definitely Sane]

Carfax wrote...



The taboo against homosexuality has existed for as long as humans have been around..  Regardless of what I think, it won't be going away any time soon.
 

I was fairly sure that in ancient Greece it was okay.

[Visii]

OliviavdB wrote...

Visii wrote...

They could also, uhm, FIX the romances they broke... just a thought before adding even more...

Like Thane and Jacob? I would have loved it if they added to the dialouge with Thane before he died, but it was still some pretty powerful scenes with him. And Jacob is a dead end since he has a new woman and a baby on the way. Were those the two you were referring to?

Well, if romanced there is hardly any difference between a Shep that romanced Thane and one that didn't so the three scenes Thane shows up in is more than a little inadequate and no, that sucky contrived fight scene and deathbed prayer don't make up for it. If you barely get to talk to him while he was alive and then everyone (even a Shep that romanced him) forgets his very existence after he dies, I'd call that broken.

With Jacob, there AT LEAST needs to be further dialogue options to argue with Jacob more to express hurt or rage, or  slug him and fix that conversation on the Citadel where he tells FemShep that Brynn was thinking of naming the baby after her. At most, there needs to be a way to avoid that development altogether.

And for all the other romances- Samara (yes, she counts) Jack and Miranda, they just need more content.

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...

Limiting Mass Effect to the Soldier class would have been an exceptionally foolish mistake on Bioware's part if they were to ever do such a thing. 

Really, why? If they only kept let's say, Soldier and Infiltrator class then they would have 75% of players not giving sh*t about something being removed they didn't use anyway and only 25% unhappy. Business reality. Why devote as much effort and resources into Engineer class if less than 3% of players bothers to use it? Again, keep up with your brilliant "bussiness reality" advices in areas you have issues with, and we will have RPGs become even more and more streamlined as the time goes one day reaching ares you actually do care about. 'Cause nothing stops them from applying the same "bussiness reality" criteria to other areas of RPGs, such as classes. Nothing stops them from stripping RPGs from its stamples. Isn't armor customization a stample of RPGs? Let's jump from ME1 to ME2 aaaaaand it's gone! No more actual armor customization. Just like that. Isn't crates/locks bypassing based on stats a stample of RPGs? Let's jump from ME1 to ME2 aaaaaand it's gone! Stats and character progression no longer influence your ability to bypass locks at all. Let's jump from ME2 to ME3 and we don't even have mini-games left lol. So yeah, don't protest about more variety in RPGs.

Carfax wrote...

As usual IsaacShep, you invest too much emotions into discussions of this nature.  You assume I'm trying to get rid of gays, when in fact, I'm just pointing out a few simple observations that will likely become true one day because of human nature.

Then you should also remember that it is human nature to form different views and opinions on certain subjects, such as for example no ingerention in child's DNA whatsoever or accepting child's homosexuality as nothing that has to be fixed. Just because you think something is abnormal doesn't mean other people share your view. Human nature. And I don't think I even have to remind you that unless we change our bodies to the point our species can't reproduce outside of a lab, then there will be always naturally concieved, carried and born children which means guess what, 5% of them will be gay.

Carfax wrote...
I also find it curious that although homosexuality is an abnormal condition brought about by an as of yet unspecified cause(s) (although the evidence is leaning towards intra uterine hormone imbalances with a genetic co-factor), you are acting as though it's a positive and should be retained by mankind. 

Isn't that a bit narcissistic?

Mother nature ain't biased. If she wants us around in our species and hundreds of other species, then she clearly sees a benefit in it. Not to mention her opinion is simply more more trustworthy and backed by billions of years of credibility than what 'scientist' Carfax says.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 15 avril 2012 - 11:09 .

[OliviavdB]

Visii wrote...

Well, if romanced there is hardly any difference between a Shep that romanced Thane and one that didn't so the three scenes Thane shows up in is more than a little inadequate and no, that sucky contrived fight scene and deathbed prayer don't make up for it. If you barely get to talk to him while he was alive and then everyone (even a Shep that romanced him) forgets his very existence after he dies, I'd call that broken.

With Jacob, there AT LEAST needs to be further dialogue options to argue with Jacob more to express hurt or rage, or  slug him and fix that conversation on the Citadel where he tells FemShep that Brynn was thinking of naming the baby after her. At most, there needs to be a way to avoid that development altogether.

And for all the other romances- Samara (yes, she counts) Jack and Miranda, they just need more content.

You make good points. As I said, I'm all in for adding more dialouge with Thane and Jacob (and the others you mention, though I'm going to focus on the male LI's here). The thing is though, that no matter what they add to these romances they are going to end badly. I think it would be great to have more time with Thane, but no matter what he's going to end up dead pretty early in the game. My suggestions for future LI's were meant as full romances, so to speak. When I sit down and play ME3 for the third time I would have loved to have a new romance to experience, one where anything could happen. But if they could fix the old ones and add a new male LI I would be a very happy camper.

[VEGA-PILLE]

Hi , I just thought 'this' would fit in here pretty well,
cause there is a petition for a James Vega Romance DLC round here and
it would be great if you could sign it!

We need every support we can get in order to achieve our claim
making Vega available for Sheps,

so here is the LINK:  \\_JAMES VEGA ROMANCE DLC PETITION_/
Thank you!

Modifié par VEGA-PILLE, 16 avril 2012 - 01:02 .

[HoldTheLine]

I just now found this thread. So glad I'm not the only one who thought FemShep was let down in the romance department.

[Autumn D4WN]

venusara wrote...

I thought the Kaidan romance was poorly done since he ignores the LI 99% of the time. Could he not be more like Allister and pretend he actually likes Femshep while they are on the ship together?

I can't agree with this more! I have not finished the game yet, but after our scene together at Apollo he has pretty much ignored my FemShep.I go inside a Geth server and he doesn't even seem to be concerned for my health or safety. After THessia, it's Garrus comforting my ass, while KAidan is hangin out in Engineering with Adams. I mean, WTF. Why isn't my boyfriend telling me how amazing I am? It makes me want to write fanfic so I can fill in the in between the lines crap they forgot to write about.

[Yuqi]

Carfax wrote...

I also find it curious that although homosexuality is an abnormal condition brought about by an as of yet unspecified cause(s) (although the evidence is leaning towards intra uterine hormone imbalances with a genetic co-factor), you are acting as though it's a positive and should be retained by mankind. 

Isn't that a bit narcissistic?

The figures about femshep are not really relevant anymore . The games market in Australia is  now Aprx 48% Female. The fact is the straight-white-male-elitests need to adapt, and accept the inevitable. I remember the ****ing caused by Pokemon-Crystal, when it was announced you could select to be a female trainer.

Modifié par Yuqi, 16 avril 2012 - 05:48 .

[Dead_Meat357]

[quote]LaurenShepard-N7 wrote...

If you're a straight manshep in ME3:
Ashley wants you
Diana wants you
Jack wants you
Kelly wants you
Liara wants you
Miranda wants you
Tali wants you

If you're a straight femshep in ME3:
Garrus wants you
Jacob cheats on you and gets another girl knocked up (racist stereotype much?)
Joker would rather get it on with a fembot who probably has machine gun nipples.
Kaidan wants you (but he got reconned to be bisexual now, while Ashley didn't get the same treatment)
Thane dies (though to be honest we all saw that coming, still could've given Paramour for him though)
Vega doesn't want you for some reason (despite every other non-dlc human squadmate being romanceable) 

So straight femshep is left with 1 human and 1 very non-human-like alien man, and no new straight romances.
Meanwhile lesbianshep gets 4 alive and willing women (Diana, Kelly, Liara, Traynor) to hook up with, 2 of them new, because all femsheps are actually dudes in real life am I right? <_<

That's it, after I finish ME3 with Kaidan I'm done with Bioware romances. They can cater to the homosexuals with a couple of token gay characters and scream "gender equality", while the straight female gamers are forgotten about once again...
[/quote]

I highlighted the important part because that's really the truth of it. Very few women play games like this in comparison to males. I know straight female players are out there, but again they are few and far between. It would have made sense for Vega to be romancable, to help offset this and provide options. Not sure why BioWare didn't beyond the bold text above added with the game being rushed out the door.

[quote]Carfax wrote...

[quote]IsaacShep wrote...
I also find it curious that although homosexuality is an abnormal condition brought
about by an as of yet unspecified cause(s) (although the evidence is
leaning towards intra uterine hormone imbalances with a genetic
co-factor), you are acting as though it's a positive and should be
retained by mankind. 

Isn't that a bit narcissistic?[/quote]

This is an interesting point here. While it is somewhat abnormal, and may in fact be largely genetic, in many cases homosexuality is more of a psychological factor than a biological one. I'm not saying that it is purely a matter of choice, but in many cases bisexuals and homosexuals have histories of sexual abuse and violence in their backgrounds. Humans need intimacy and companionship. As a result, those who have been abused may develop coping mechanisms to combat traumatic events and let them adapt in a way that gives them what they need psychologically.
Genetic factors aside, I think it will always exist for one reason or another even if it exists in the minority. Socially it's becoming more and more acceptable, and reproductive concerns aside, more and more people may venture into same sex relationships when the stigma of them fades. 

As far as reproduction goes, the trait on a genetic level isn't beneficial to the human race as it doesn't further the species at all. In fact, the condition spreading beyond an abnormality in a select few could cause massive population decline over a period of just a few generations.

In any case I think Mass Effect handles these topics well by making them non-issues. I applaud the fact that some characters have a sexual orientation which may or may not be compatible with your Shepard's orientation.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 16 avril 2012 - 08:06 .

[Hadeedak]

I will say I bet you'd be surprised by how many straight female gamers are out there. And women who'd at least like as many choices as the boys, straight or not. (Particularly on forums. Girls love forums. It's one of those internet things it helps to know...) Also, I want to be pandered to.

Four gay, two straight options (though I'd still call Thane a relationship, even if the game doesn't believe me) doesn't measure up to two gay, six straight options. Plus or minus Samara... Who I personally like, but once again, the game doubts me. I wish more choice. I will have many Shepards!

Modifié par Hadeedak, 16 avril 2012 - 08:27 .

[OliviavdB]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

I highlighted the important part because that's really the truth of it. Very few women play games like this in comparison to males. I know straight female players are out there, but again they are few and far between. It would have made sense for Vega to be romancable, to help offset this and provide options. Not sure why BioWare didn't beyond the bold text above added with the game being rushed out the door.

But that's the thing. ME has an unsusualy high amont of female players and with the market for games growing, so does the need to satisfy female customers. Sure, the romance with Garrus was incredible, but beyond that there really insn't a a good straight relationship in the game for FemShep (Yes, Kaidan is there, but his romance is a bit slapdash compared to Garrus).

[Dead_Meat357]

OliviavdB wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

I highlighted the important part because that's really the truth of it. Very few women play games like this in comparison to males. I know straight female players are out there, but again they are few and far between. It would have made sense for Vega to be romancable, to help offset this and provide options. Not sure why BioWare didn't beyond the bold text above added with the game being rushed out the door.

But that's the thing. ME has an unsusualy high amont of female players and with the market for games growing, so does the need to satisfy female customers. Sure, the romance with Garrus was incredible, but beyond that there really insn't a a good straight relationship in the game for FemShep (Yes, Kaidan is there, but his romance is a bit slapdash compared to Garrus).

I don't disagree. I think more choice is good. And I know there are a lot of female games out there, but still I doubt they reach the sheer numbers as compared to male gamers. When you are on a crunch for time you do what is needed to pander to the widest audience possible. In this case men.

And yeah, Kaiden and Ashley's romances could have been handled a lot better.

[OliviavdB]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

OliviavdB wrote...

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

I highlighted the important part because that's really the truth of it. Very few women play games like this in comparison to males. I know straight female players are out there, but again they are few and far between. It would have made sense for Vega to be romancable, to help offset this and provide options. Not sure why BioWare didn't beyond the bold text above added with the game being rushed out the door.

But that's the thing. ME has an unsusualy high amont of female players and with the market for games growing, so does the need to satisfy female customers. Sure, the romance with Garrus was incredible, but beyond that there really insn't a a good straight relationship in the game for FemShep (Yes, Kaidan is there, but his romance is a bit slapdash compared to Garrus).

I don't disagree. I think more choice is good. And I know there are a lot of female games out there, but still I doubt they reach the sheer numbers as compared to male gamers. When you are on a crunch for time you do what is needed to pander to the widest audience possible. In this case men.

And yeah, Kaiden and Ashley's romances could have been handled a lot better.

Alright then. I suppose we agree with eachother

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

Really, why? If they only kept let's say, Soldier and Infiltrator class then they would have 75% of players not giving sh*t about something being removed they didn't use anyway and only 25% unhappy. Business reality

You're still stuck on this nonsensical arguement I see, even though I've already shown how silly it is to compare class variations (a very major part of the Mass Effect series) to romances (a very minor part of the Mass Effect series).

Keep clucking though..  The arguements I use to explain why hetero MaleShep got the lion's share of the aleady limited romance sub plots are correct whether you like them or not.

Last time I checked, Bioware is a business and not a Social rights organization, although some peope would like to believe that.

If Bioware was as you wished them to be, ****** Shep wouldn't have had to wait until the 3rd game to get some ****...

'Cause nothing stops them from applying the same "bussiness reality" criteria to other areas of RPGs, such as classes. Nothing stops them from stripping RPGs from its stamples. Isn't armor customization a stample of RPGs? Let's jump from ME1 to ME2 aaaaaand it's gone! No more actual armor customization. Just like that. Isn't crates/locks bypassing based on stats a stample of RPGs? Let's jump from ME1 to ME2 aaaaaand it's gone! Stats and character progression no longer influence your ability to bypass locks at all. Let's jump from ME2 to ME3 and we don't even have mini-games left lol.

Bioware can do whatever they want with their games, but they're not stupid.  class variation is a major component of any RPG game, but romances are not.....end of story.   Also, ME2 had armor customization so I don't know what you're talking about.  The N7 armor was more customizable than any ME armor, since it came in several pieces and you could change the color, or pattern of the material..

Armor customization as I recall was relatively weak, if non existent in Mass Effect since all of the armors came as single pieces.  You couldn't even change the color of the armor.  There was more armor variation in Mass Effect, but it was mostly an illusory effect since many of the armors used the same designs, just with different color schemes and stats.

BTW it's staple, not stample..

So yeah, don't protest about more variety in RPGs

Now this really gets me.  For the life of me, I can't recall protesting more variety in Mass Effect..  Explaining why there is lack of options or variety, doesn't equate to supporting that lack of options or variety..

Then you should also remember that it is human nature to form different views and opinions on certain subjects, such as for example no ingerention in child's DNA whatsoever or accepting child's homosexuality as nothing that has to be fixed. Just because you think something is abnormal doesn't mean other people share your view. Human nature.

Hence why I brought up narcissism.  Despite the fact that homosexuality is an aberration with an unknown cause, you clearly want this aberration to remain with humanity as long as possible. 

That not only speaks of lack of objective thinking on your part, but extreme selfishness as well.   

And I don't think I even have to remind you that unless we change our bodies to the point our species can't reproduce outside of a lab, then there will be always naturally concieved, carried and born children which means guess what, 5% of them will be gay.

Actually, it's 4%, and thats including bisexuals (more than half of that percentage) which may or may not be in S/S relationships.

Mother nature ain't biased. If she wants us around in our species and hundreds of other species, then she clearly sees a benefit in it. Not to mention her opinion is simply more more trustworthy and backed by billions of years of credibility than what 'scientist' Carfax says.

LOL, Mother Nature?  So any kind of abnormality that exists in Nature is automatically beneficial because "Mother Nature" approves of it otherwise it wouldn't be there am I right?

So Siamese twins, intersex, cleft palates and a host of other naturally occuring abnormalities and defects should be retained by humanity as well, since they have been with mankind for thousands of years just like homosexuality going by your thinking..

Modifié par Carfax, 16 avril 2012 - 06:03 .

[Carfax]

Yuqi wrote...

The figures about femshep are not really relevant anymore . The games market in Australia is  now Aprx 48% Female. The fact is the straight-white-male-elitests need to adapt, and accept the inevitable.

You are aware that the games market represents casual games like Angry Birds, Farmville and Solitaire right? 

Using the percentage of females in the overall gaming industry as evidence that females constitute a large percentage of Mass Effect players is disingenuous.

For the sake of discussion, lets say your premise is correct though.   Now if approximately half of all gamers are female, why is this not reflected in the romance sub plots?  Why do hetero male Sheps get the most amount of options? 

[Carfax]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

I was fairly sure that in ancient Greece it was okay.

Nope.  Already discussed that a few pages ago..

[Carfax]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

This is an interesting point here. While it is somewhat abnormal, and may in fact be largely genetic, in many cases homosexuality is more of a psychological factor than a biological one. I'm not saying that it is purely a matter of choice, but in many cases bisexuals and homosexuals have histories of sexual abuse and violence in their backgrounds. Humans need intimacy and companionship. As a result, those who have been abused may develop coping mechanisms to combat traumatic events and let them adapt in a way that gives them what they need psychologically.

Here's another interesting point.  Sexual behaviour and sexual orientation are not necessarily the same..  In other words, while a history of chidlhood sexual abuse/molestation may be an indicator future homosexual behaviour, it's not necessarily the same for actual homosexual orientation.

[Most Definitely Sane]

Carfax wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

I was fairly sure that in ancient Greece it was okay.

Nope.  Already discussed that a few pages ago..

No, I'm pretty sure they were okay with it.
They had pedastery or however you spell it. They had art detailing homosexual male sex. And Sappho.

Also, I noticed your comments to others.
Homosexuality or bisexuality are as much an aberration as heterosexuality and asexuality.
It is actually proven that people usually have at least one person opposite of their preferred sex they are attracted to.
For me, it's Natalie Portman. For some men, Christian Bale or Johnny Depp.

And the average of female gamers has increased in the last few years, and it's increasing each year, if I'm correct.

[Carfax]

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure they were okay with it.
They had pedastery or however you spell it. They had art detailing homosexual male sex. And Sappho.

You don't need to take my word for it.  Anyone can find the information themself if they so choose. 

Here's the wiki entry on homosexuality in Ancient Greece.  If you read the entry, it becomes quite clear that relationships between adult men were frowned upon, since one of them had to assume the submissive or feminine role:

Given the importance in Greek society of cultivating the masculinity of the adult male and the perceived feminizing effect of being the passive partner, relations between adult men of comparable social status were considered highly problematic, and usually associated with social stigma. This stigma, however, was reserved for only the passive partner in the relationship. According to contemporary opinion, Greeks who engaged in passive homosexuality past the age at which they were the passive members of pederastic relationships "made a woman" of themselves; there is ample evidence in the theater of Aristophanes that derides these passive homosexuals and gives a glimpse of the type of biting social opprobrium heaped upon them by their society.

As for Sappho, she wasn't a lesbian, yet is often depicted as such.  She wrote poems to both men and women, and reportedly fell in love with a ferryman. 

Also, I noticed your comments to others.
Homosexuality or bisexuality are as much an aberration as heterosexuality and asexuality.
It is actually proven that people usually have at least one person opposite of their preferred sex they are attracted to.
For me, it's Natalie Portman. For some men, Christian Bale or Johnny Depp.

I'd like to see proof of your assertions if you don't mind.   

And the average of female gamers has increased in the last few years, and it's increasing each year, if I'm correct.

Like I've said multiple times, the bulk of female gamers are concentrated in MMORPGs and casual games.  AAA titles like Mass Effect, Crysis etc have a very small percentage of female gamers..