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[MACharlie1]

Carfax wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure they were okay with it.
They had pedastery or however you spell it. They had art detailing homosexual male sex. And Sappho.

You don't need to take my word for it.  Anyone can find the information themself if they so choose. 

Here's the wiki entry on homosexuality in Ancient Greece.  If you read the entry, it becomes quite clear that relationships between adult men were frowned upon, since one of them had to assume the submissive or feminine role:

Given the importance in Greek society of cultivating the masculinity of the adult male and the perceived feminizing effect of being the passive partner, relations between adult men of comparable social status were considered highly problematic, and usually associated with social stigma. This stigma, however, was reserved for only the passive partner in the relationship. According to contemporary opinion, Greeks who engaged in passive homosexuality past the age at which they were the passive members of pederastic relationships "made a woman" of themselves; there is ample evidence in the theater of Aristophanes that derides these passive homosexuals and gives a glimpse of the type of biting social opprobrium heaped upon them by their society.

And in the event that the relationship does not involve penetration but is simply the romantic love between two men? It also states that it wasn't homosexuality that was the problem - it was the fact that a man was being "womanized".

Modifié par MACharlie1, 16 avril 2012 - 07:40 .

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

I like pancakes

[shepskisaac]

Carfax wrote...
Last time I checked, Bioware is a business and not a Social rights organization, although some peope would like to believe that.

Last time I checked Bioware was developing RPG games with customizable player character which means they should be aiming for having variety of choices/options to customize your player character and all of these choices/options should be equally rich in content. That means Paragon Shepard shouldn't have 10 times more quests than Renegade Sheprd even though much more people play Paragon. That means Female Shepard should have all dialogues voices and not just 18% compared to male Shepard. That means Earthborn Shepard shouldn't have less content than Spacer Shepard. That means Female Shepard should have as much romance options as male Shepard, as should gay and lesbian Shepard have. This is not a social issue, it's a game design issue. If you're making a game based on choices and customization, it means you should be making all paths you can take you character's creation and progression to be valid playstyle, and valid means no worse than the others.

In the end, it all boils down to the fact that you just want all resources devoted to your playstyle. Sorry, we're talking RPGs. Time to learn that you have to share resources with other playstyles that don't interest you. That's how you get the particular playstyles that DO interest you in the first place. If they applied "bussiness reality" to all aspects of RPGs, chances are you wouldn't have most of the playstyles you would wish there were.

Carfax wrote...
Bioware can do whatever they want with their games, but they're not stupid.  class variation is a major component of any RPG game, but romances are not.....end of story.

Neither are "Personal Profile/Background" missions (Space/Earthborn/Akuze/Sole Survivor etc missions in ME1 and references in ME2 & ME3). Want the next BW game to give you an option to select out of 6 different backgrounds for your player character but have personal missions/side-quests cover only 3 or 2 of them? Sure! Keep promoting 'bussiness reality'.

Carfax wrote...
Also, ME2 had armor customization so I don't know what you're talking about.  The N7 armor was more customizable than any ME armor, since it came in several pieces and you could change the color, or pattern of the material..

lol color changing, such deep RPG experience...

Carfax wrote...
Despite the fact that homosexuality is an aberration with an unknown cause, you clearly want this aberration to remain with humanity as long as possible.

I don't have to do anything. It was always here, always will be. Deal with it now and spare yourself looking ridiculous with the BS you keep talking. Narcissism lolol what are you smoking?

Carfax wrote...
Actually, it's 4%, and thats including bisexuals (more than half of that percentage) which may or may not be in S/S relationships.

And I can give you sources stating it's 10% or even 12% or even more. The reports are varying from 2% to 10%, I'm going with 5% because it looks resonable to me based on all the different numbers in different sources.

Carfax wrote...

LOL, Mother Nature?  So any kind of abnormality that exists in Nature is automatically beneficial because "Mother Nature" approves of it otherwise it wouldn't be there am I right?

So Siamese twins, intersex, cleft palates and a host of other naturally occuring abnormalities and defects should be retained by humanity as well, since they have been with mankind for thousands of years just like homosexuality going by your thinking..

And which of the charactertstics you mentioned is even remotely close to being present in 5% of the population? No to mention all these conditions include smaller or bigger body deformations which is not the case of homosexuality (not to even mention your ridiculous example of Siamese twins which often is a direct threat to life at all, right at birth, if they're even born alive).

Modifié par IsaacShep, 16 avril 2012 - 08:11 .

[smudgedhorizon]

You know I'm sick of people taking these threads off point. It's not about gay rights or being homophobic, or philosophy or anything like that.

I think it's ridiculous that there are 4 lesbain options for femshep but only 2 straight options AND if you didn't romance Garrus in ME2 there is only one option, Kaiden (who can also be dead!), who isn't even ours and ours alone because they went and made him bisexual.

I'm NOT saying I don't want lesbian options in game, or whatever, I don't care if there are. I won't ever use them because I don't like it, but I'm happy that it's there for the people who want it, so long as it's not in my face. What I DON'T think is fair is that the tiny minority of the female population who are lesbian/bi get 4 choices, but the vast majority of the female population who are straight get just 2 rubbish choices.

Seriously even based on pure numbers: around 5% of the world's population are lesbian/bi - so that leaves 95% of women who are straight. How many of those 5% play video games? How many bought Mass Effect 3? Nowhere NEAR the amount of straight women who did I bet. So why do they get 4 choices, and we get only 2 choices?

And that is the ONLY question, and I think it's a good one.

[sagefic]

^ like smudge horizon there, returning to OP.

The real problem here, I think, is that there used to be a fairly equitable division of LIs (though femshep had more aliens and fewer actual human men) and then that got just hit by a plot bus when Jacob and Thane both got dropped. At the same time, you add 3 new LIs: 2 women, 1 gay man. And don't get me wrong, I like the new LIs. Cortez, in particular, is awesome. I am SO happy someone else is driving the dang shuttle, since me and Makos and Hammerheads don't get along.

But you HAD 2 love interests for the straight femshep and they got dropped. The reason must have been that either a) bioware assumed all women playing the game were romancing kaidan or garrus and wouldn't care or they ran out of time implementing new shinys or a combo of both of those things.

I am not surprised to see it happen, but it is extremely frustrating. I have no reason to play my jacob/thane femsheps into me3. A new player to ME3 with ashley choses from the start has NO romance options for straight femshep. NONE. this is a pretty big oversight in that department. While it's unlikely to change retroactively (and frankly, the ending DLCis where i hope BioWare spends their creative energies from here on out), I do hope BioWare takes it under advisement for future games that there are female gamers out there, we play their games, there are more of us every year, and we like the romance options to include options for our straight female characters.

Modifié par sagequeen, 16 avril 2012 - 08:33 .

[Dead_Meat357]

smudgedhorizon wrote...

You know I'm sick of people taking these threads off point. It's not about gay rights or being homophobic, or philosophy or anything like that.

I think it's ridiculous that there are 4 lesbain options for femshep but only 2 straight options AND if you didn't romance Garrus in ME2 there is only one option, Kaiden (who can also be dead!), who isn't even ours and ours alone because they went and made him bisexual.

I'm NOT saying I don't want lesbian options in game, or whatever, I don't care if there are. I won't ever use them because I don't like it, but I'm happy that it's there for the people who want it, so long as it's not in my face. What I DON'T think is fair is that the tiny minority of the female population who are lesbian/bi get 4 choices, but the vast majority of the female population who are straight get just 2 rubbish choices.

Seriously even based on pure numbers: around 5% of the world's population are lesbian/bi - so that leaves 95% of women who are straight. How many of those 5% play video games? How many bought Mass Effect 3? Nowhere NEAR the amount of straight women who did I bet. So why do they get 4 choices, and we get only 2 choices?

And that is the ONLY question, and I think it's a good one.

I think the bulk of the lesbian options are for the dudes playing FemShep's in the game. I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are a lot more FemSheps played by straight dudes wanting to see some girl on girl action in a game than there are straight girls playing it. I agree that more straight FemShep options needed to be presented. Vega was a clear opportunity to do that. Why they didn't I'll never know.

Modifié par Dead_Meat357, 16 avril 2012 - 09:06 .

[Most Definitely Sane]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Carfax wrote...

Most Definitely Sane wrote...

No, I'm pretty sure they were okay with it.
They had pedastery or however you spell it. They had art detailing homosexual male sex. And Sappho.

You don't need to take my word for it.  Anyone can find the information themself if they so choose. 

Here's the wiki entry on homosexuality in Ancient Greece.  If you read the entry, it becomes quite clear that relationships between adult men were frowned upon, since one of them had to assume the submissive or feminine role:

Given the importance in Greek society of cultivating the masculinity of the adult male and the perceived feminizing effect of being the passive partner, relations between adult men of comparable social status were considered highly problematic, and usually associated with social stigma. This stigma, however, was reserved for only the passive partner in the relationship. According to contemporary opinion, Greeks who engaged in passive homosexuality past the age at which they were the passive members of pederastic relationships "made a woman" of themselves; there is ample evidence in the theater of Aristophanes that derides these passive homosexuals and gives a glimpse of the type of biting social opprobrium heaped upon them by their society.

And in the event that the relationship does not involve penetration but is simply the romantic love between two men? It also states that it wasn't homosexuality that was the problem - it was the fact that a man was being "womanized".

Thank you, that's what I meant.

And I know Sappho was bi. I didn't mean to say she was a lesbian.

As for proof of my statements, I read a survey, but I can't find it. I'm looking for it now and will send it to you the second I find it.

sagequeen wrote...
The real problem here, I think, is that there used to be a fairly equitable division of LIs (though femshep had more aliens and fewer actual human men) and then that got just hit by a plot bus when Jacob and Thane both got dropped. At the same time, you add 3 new LIs: 2 women, 1 gay man. And don't get me wrong, I like the new LIs. Cortez, in particular, is awesome. I am SO happy someone else is driving the dang shuttle, since me and Makos and Hammerheads don't get along.

This. I really wished Cortez danced with Femshep and straight Maleshep too, though.
WHAT'S WRONG WITH PLATONIC DANCING?

But yeah, FemShep got screwed in the head. All they had to do was give Vega ten more lines, and we could have had it, basically.

Modifié par Most Definitely Sane, 16 avril 2012 - 09:09 .

[Carfax]

MACharlie1 wrote...

And in the event that the relationship does not involve penetration but is simply the romantic love between two men? It also states that it wasn't homosexuality that was the problem - it was the fact that a man was being "womanized".

The stigma was attached to men that assumed the feminine role, but adult male relationships were still frowned upon because ultimately, men were expected to one day marry and father children.  How could they do that if they preferred to form relationships with other men, rather than women?

Thats why pederasty was accepted.  It allowed men to sate their lust (since premarital sexual relationships with women were very taboo) by having sexual contact with young boys who were not considered men, therefore not sacrificing their own manhood in the process or that of the boy's.

Modern day Afghanistan has a very similar outlook as Ancient Greece, where pederasty is tolerated to a degree because male/female sexual relationships are taboo outside of marriage.

[Carfax]

IsaacShep wrote...

This is not a social issue, it's a game design issue. If you're making a game based on choices and customization, it means you should be making all paths you can take you character's creation and progression to be valid playstyle, and valid means no worse than the others.

Perhaps in your perfect little World game content would always be equal, but in the real World, there are factors such as time and resources which cannot be ignored.   

I explained this a few pages ago, so I guess you missed it.. 

In the end, it all boils down to the fact that you just want all resources devoted to your playstyle. Sorry, we're talking RPGs. Time to learn that you have to share resources with other playstyles that don't interest you..

It's amusing that you are so emotional, to the point where you think I'm accountable for Bioware's inequities.. 

Neither are "Personal Profile/Background" missions (Space/Earthborn/Akuze/Sole Survivor etc missions in ME1 and references in ME2 & ME3). Want the next BW game to give you an option to select out of 6 different backgrounds for your player character but have personal missions/side-quests cover only 3 or 2 of them? Sure! Keep promoting 'bussiness reality'.

I'm not going to bother arguing with you over this anymore.  Bioware and every other developer will devote the greatest amount of their resources and development time to the majority. 

It's always going to be that way, so deal with it..

lol color changing, such deep RPG experience...

Did you even play ME2?  Not only could you change the color and pattern of the armors, you could change the pieces themselves..

I don't have to do anything. It was always here, always will be. Deal with it now and spare yourself looking ridiculous with the BS you keep talking. Narcissism lolol what are you smoking?

And yet you're against research into the nature of homosexuality, because you know that one day Scientists are going to find the root cause of it.....and when they do, it will one day be possible to prevent the condition from occuring.

And I can give you sources stating it's 10% or even 12% or even more. The reports are varying from 2% to 10%, I'm going with 5% because it looks resonable to me based on all the different numbers in different sources

Go ahead and give me those sources if you like.  I'll be more than happy to point out their flaws and tell you why they should be ignored, just like the Kinsey studies...

]And which of the charactertstics you mentioned is even remotely close to being present in 5% of the population? No to mention all these conditions include smaller or bigger body deformations which is not the case of homosexuality (not to even mention your ridiculous example of Siamese twins which often is a direct threat to life at all, right at birth, if they're even born alive).

Thrombophilia is a genetic abnormality which affects about 5% of the European population, so we should keep that since Mother Nature obviously wants it around? 

And how would you know whether homosexuality doesn't have deformations?  I recall studies which say that gays have different finger length ratios than heterosexuals, and their brains resemble the opposite sex more than the same sex.. 

I'm sure there are plenty of other physical abnormalities which Science will eventually turn out..

[shepskisaac]

Was going to respond to the entire post but then I saw this gem:

Carfax wrote...
I'm sure there are plenty of other physical abnormalities which Science will eventually turn out..

And you expose where your interest lies in right away. Not that all this talk how future parents will "surely repogram their children to avoid being gay" didn't give everyone a clue. You are so bigoted you actually hope one day science finds some kind of physical abnormalities in gay people, even if it potentially means worse quality of life for those people. All just so you can have you "gays are abnormality" idiotic view validated. All just so there's more reason to "eliminate" gay people. Dude I'm f*cking done with someone like you.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 17 avril 2012 - 03:10 .

[Terraforming2154]

Dead_Meat357 wrote...

I think the bulk of the lesbian options are for the dudes playing FemShep's in the game. I'm going to go out on a limb and say there are a lot more FemSheps played by straight dudes wanting to see some girl on girl action in a game than there are straight girls playing it. I agree that more straight FemShep options needed to be presented. Vega was a clear opportunity to do that. Why they didn't I'll never know.

Frankly, with how they treated Traynor in ME3, I have to say you are probably right. I felt like Steve was really well developed, but Traynor was really nothing but an awkward shower scene. I'm glad if some players liked her, but she felt so tacked on and shallow.

In regards to both s/s and straight romance options, I really feel like Bioware sort of forgot, or just didn't really care, about their female fans.