287 réponses à ce sujet

[shadey]

i'm just glad I always left kaiden on virmire

[Naltair]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

Still, I think that the fact that she was originally not only written as bisexual, but recorded conversations for that arc, makes a strong case that the idea of her being bisexual isn't entirely out of left field or inconcievable.

Personally, I felt like the scenes with her and FemShep on Mars were just loaded with UST.

You can read into the situation whatever you want, the evidence supports the case that despite what you "felt", or what was cut, she is as of ME3, straight and not interested in pursuing a same sex romance.

Games change throughout production, ideas are made, then shelved some may even make it to the game before being shelved.  All that really matters is what is presented in the finished product, as the team intended it.

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

Still, I think that the fact that she was originally not only written as bisexual, but recorded conversations for that arc, makes a strong case that the idea of her being bisexual isn't entirely out of left field or inconcievable.

Personally, I felt like the scenes with her and FemShep on Mars were just loaded with UST.

You can read into the situation whatever you want, the evidence supports the case that despite what you "felt", or what was cut, she is as of ME3, straight and not interested in pursuing a same sex romance.

Games change throughout production, ideas are made, then shelved some may even make it to the game before being shelved.  All that really matters is what is presented in the finished product, as the team intended it.

You seem to be reading more into my comments than I intended them to say.

All that I mean is that the idea of her character being bisexual is not at all inconcievable.

I'm not saying anything about the official "canon" state of the ME setting.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 26 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[JeanLuc Awesome]

If everyone in the game was Bi, that would be a little weird.

[Naltair]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

You seem to be reading more into my comments than I intended them to say.

All that I mean is that the idea of her character being bisexual is not at all inconcievable.

I'm not saying anything about the official "canon" state of the ME setting.

Okay, well I tend to rely on factual evidence and not just well this is my idea.

If I put words in your month or made an unjust insinuation, I apologize.

[KTheAlchemist]

JeanLuc Awesome wrote...

If everyone in the game was Bi, that would be a little weird.

I agree, but I think that in some cases, such as DA2, I don't think it's meant that the characters are necessarially bisexual, but rather "Player Character-Sexual".

What I mean by this is that as a single-player game, the world revolves around your character. As such, if you play the same gender, they are "officially" gay, if you're the opposite gender, they are "officially" straight. I'm not sure entirely about that as a device for game creation, but it certainly does allow more possibilities in that area with fewer resources.

Granted, I didn't get that feel as much in ME3, but that's because we actually have two "gay, period" characters.

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

You seem to be reading more into my comments than I intended them to say.

All that I mean is that the idea of her character being bisexual is not at all inconcievable.

I'm not saying anything about the official "canon" state of the ME setting.

Okay, well I tend to rely on factual evidence and not just well this is my idea.

If I put words in your month or made an unjust insinuation, I apologize.

Honestly, when we're talking about the possibility (note my emphasis here, possible, not this is, but rather this could have been) of a Bisexual Ash, or a Player-Character-Sexual Ash, there's no such thing as factual evidence.

All there is, is character examination, some tertiary information (such as the voice recordings) all we can create from this is personal opinions. Which is fine.

I'm just saying, my opinion is that it would not have been completely out of left field for her to be bisexual or gay, and as far as the "might have been's", opinions are all we have.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 26 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[panamakira]

Sparatus wrote...

No.

Really, I think Femshep has enough lesbian romances. She needs more hetero ones. Girls actually play your games, Bioware. Straight ones!

Actually you're right. There weren't enough straight romances for FemShep. Oh well, I'm good with Kaidan and Garrus. 

[Naltair]

KTheAlchemist wrote...

JeanLuc Awesome wrote...

If everyone in the game was Bi, that would be a little weird.

I agree, but I think that in some cases, such as DA2, I don't think it's meant that the characters are necessarially bisexual, but rather "Player Character-Sexual".

What I mean by this is that as a single-player game, the world revolves around your character. As such, if you play the same gender, they are "officially" gay, if you're the opposite gender, they are "officially" straight. I'm not sure entirely about that as a device for game creation, but it certainly does allow more possibilities in that area with fewer resources.

Granted, I didn't get that feel as much in ME3, but that's because we actually have two "gay, period" characters.

I don't buy that player-character sexual, and I hope it it is never used again.  The whole point of a character should be your interactions with said character and discovering more about them, through dialog/story/gameplay.  I am not offended if a character says no I don't want to be with you romantically, or if the option just never comes along, part of the discovery process is that facet of their character.  Not, well no matter what gender or orientation you choose every character is ready to please you sexually/romantically.

Just cheap and uninpsired.

Modifié par Naltair, 26 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[TheHoneyRuns]

RedNanaki wrote...

Ashley's a Christian, so it would arguably go against her character.

Also to avoid potential ****storm. Just imagine FOX reporting on this... Christian turns gay in video game? Uh oh.

lol, what?! That would require FOX having enough journalistic integrity to report the facts correctly in the first place!

It wouldn't be,  "Christian turns gay in video game", it would be more like, "Christians in Popular Video Game Franchise Mass Effect shown as violent homosexual drug users!"

The prerequisite air headed blonde reporter would start off with, "Wouldn't you like to know what your kids are seeing in their video games today? Well, in bestselling Mature-rated series Mass Effect, marketed directly at your youngest, our studies show they market to 9 to 12 year-olds, young gamers are being forced to watch as the titular Commander Jane Shepard, or "FemShepard", as the fans are calling her, involves her Christian teammate in several lesbian sex-orgies throughout the duration of the game, along with violently killing innocent civilains, raping alien life forms and taking drugs. Here's an example."

At which point they show a clip of Ashley on the floor intoxicated.

Then they'd bring on half a dozen "experts", none of whom played the game, all of whom agree that it morally bankrupts those 9 to 12 year olds that Bioware and EA are marketing to.

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

KTheAlchemist wrote...

JeanLuc Awesome wrote...

If everyone in the game was Bi, that would be a little weird.

I agree, but I think that in some cases, such as DA2, I don't think it's meant that the characters are necessarially bisexual, but rather "Player Character-Sexual".

What I mean by this is that as a single-player game, the world revolves around your character. As such, if you play the same gender, they are "officially" gay, if you're the opposite gender, they are "officially" straight. I'm not sure entirely about that as a device for game creation, but it certainly does allow more possibilities in that area with fewer resources.

Granted, I didn't get that feel as much in ME3, but that's because we actually have two "gay, period" characters.

I don't buy that player-character sexual, and I hope it it is never used again.  The whole point of a character should be your interactions with said character and discovering more about them, through dialog/story/gameplay.  I am not offended if a character says no I don't want to be with you romantically, or if the option just never comes along, part of the discovery process is that facet of their character.  Not, well no matter what gender or orientation you choose every character is ready to please you sexually/romantically.

Just cheap and uninpsired.

I think it's maybe not the most ideal way to handle the possibility of equal representation in role playing games regarding sexuality? But I recognize the realities of limited time and budget. I'm also female, gay, and along that line very used to having stories which acknowledged sexuality, but only heterosexual sexuality.

As such, while it'd be nice to have a panoply of gay, straight, and bisexual characters, sometimes I realize they have to work with what they can.

As far as "discovering more about them", if the characterization is well-done, or not well-done, I think that's a separate issue altogether. If character X is "straight" in your version of the game, and not in someone elses, as long as both characterizations are well done who cares what happened in someone else's single-player game?

[Naltair]

Sexuality is apart of characterization.

I agree it is an easy out for variety, but providing a well rounded cast of options if you decide to do player driven romances is always the better option. They don't even have to be apart of the "party" like in ME3.

Just interesting and capable of driving their own subplots.

For me personally I would strive to try and represent a variety of romantic relationships. Mass effect 3 was the right direction, straight female Shepard not withstanding.

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

Sexuality is apart of characterization.

I agree it is an easy out for variety, but providing a well rounded cast of options if you decide to do player driven romances is always the better option. They don't even have to be apart of the "party" like in ME3.

Just interesting and capable of driving their own subplots.

For me personally I would strive to try and represent a variety of romantic relationships. Mass effect 3 was the right direction, straight female Shepard not withstanding.

You do realize that straight female shepard and gay female shepard had the exact same number of options?

And that's IF I count Kelly Chambers. (Bioware didn't...)

EDIT: Granted, I am talking about the series as a whole.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 26 mars 2012 - 06:09 .

[Naltair]

I am not an avid female Shepard player so I was only utilizing data I have found from people complaining about straight female Shepard. As a whole the series has never been overly same-sex friendly till ME3.

[Slash1667]

Stormraught wrote...

Ash is super raciest and hates your space friends, who would want that?!

Please source this.

It is completely obvious that she distrusts other races (First Contact War was less than 50 years ago) and possibly xenophobic (I don't see it that way) but not once did they show her as a racist.

[KTheAlchemist]

Slash1667 wrote...

Stormraught wrote...

Ash is super raciest and hates your space friends, who would want that?!

Please source this.

It is completely obvious that she distrusts other races (First Contact War was less than 50 years ago) and possibly xenophobic (I don't see it that way) but not once did they show her as a racist.

It seems to me like a lot of people only saw the shallow first impression of Ashley, let her die in ME1, and never really got to know her better. She's a far more interestign and well developed character if you spend enough time with her, but ME's unique narrative that forced you to save one character and completely eliminate the other in the very first game of a trilogy gave a very unique experience of the narrative depending on that choice.

[Slash1667]

Hidden_Prophecy wrote...

Sainta117 wrote...

I don't think you can actually romance him - I think the dialog for guys and girls overlapped a bit too much, and the flirting thing is actually a joke (guys do joke about that, occasionally).
On the other hand, if anyone's discovered a secret gay Kaiden romance, I'd love to know about it (won't play it, probably, but it'd be interesting information).

actually you can gay romance Kaidan, at first I thought he was straight and just being a bud like Garrus then he ask you to meet him for dinner and starts to come on to you..so unexpected I lol'd. 

ON TOPIC: I think Kaidan is Bi because he was more requested for men than Ash was for women so yeah, and I like the system. 1 Gay= Cortez, 1 Lesbian= Traynor and 1 Bi= Kaidan. Better than DA2 in my opinion.

Technically 2 Bi=Kaiden and Liara, she IS romanceable by Male or Female Shepard

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

I am not an avid female Shepard player so I was only utilizing data I have found from people complaining about straight female Shepard. As a whole the series has never been overly same-sex friendly till ME3.

Aye, I can get that. Several posts back in this thread, I actually counted them up. If you take the ME3 series as a whole Straight Male Shep: 7 Options. Gay Male Shep: 2 Options, both in ME3 Only. Straight Femal Shep, 4 options, Gay Female Shep, 4 Options, and that's if I count Kelly Chambers which by Bioware's own reckoning is questionable.

[Naltair]

Questionable in ME2, but a full romance, well achievement based, in ME3.

[Slash1667]

JesseLee202 wrote...

Quintus Kessler wrote...

I think it makes sense. Ashley isn't someone who'd go gay. Aside from her christianity, that is. 

This

Not this. I've know several people that were gay and christian

[KTheAlchemist]

Naltair wrote...

Questionable in ME2, but a full romance, well achievement based, in ME3.

Possible...personally my FemShep stayed faithful to Liara (even if for some bizarre reason a relationship with Kelly Chambers counts as "faithful to Liara" as far as the plot goes.) So I haven't seen where that goes. It was painfully obvious that she was sort an ill-concieved "consolation arc" for those who had femsheps who were in a relationship with Liara and found her as a minor side note in the release version of ME2 (not counting DLC), with the possibility of male romance as well because it fit her character well. Don't get me wrong, I loved her character, but her development was rather anemic compared to the rest of the crew and they even for some bizarre reason removed her from the Paramour achievement which seemed to be Bioware making the odd decision to deligitimize the relationship even further, perceptually.

(As a complete side note, I felt in ME2 like Bioware was a bit shell shocked from the negative right-wing press for ME1 and that colored their decisions for it a bit. This was somewhat evident in the now infamous "there was no lesbian romance in ME1" copout.)

At any rate, my point is still pretty much the same. In the best case scenario GayFemShep and StraightFemShep are in exactly the same boat. If anyone got shortchanged (when looking at the series as a whole) it was the gay male sheps. They did decently in ME3 taken by itself, granted...still nothing next to the StraightMaleShep options of course.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 26 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[Slash1667]

bazeebies wrote...

AntiDave wrote...

And this is why I've grown to hate Bioware. Trying to please selfg-proclaimed 'feminists'. One day there will bve no entertainment left tailored exclusively to men because once a woman says she likes a series that automatically means that it needs to be adapated to her standards.

Femshep is already anorexic and unattractive so women got what they wanted.: More less attractive women in videogames but loads of muscular men.

No idea what you're talking about here, unless you're trolling for a reaction or just a misogynist, but I'll bite anyway..

I'm a woman, and a feminist (how can a woman not be a feminist?), and I think FemShep (especially in ME3) has a far too slim frame for the badass soldier she is supposed to be. Her sparring with Vega looked ridiculous and her arms were tiny. I was also pretty confused by the new ME3 default female character face (I had kept myself spoiler free prior, didn't realise they'd had a big PR thing over it) because she suddenly looked 10 years younger and 10x weirder than the previous, normal looking woman.

Your complaint about muscular men is misguided; these characters are supposed to be in the military, they're supposed to be athletic and strong.

I think a lot more of the FemShep content was put in to please male players who opted to play her than it was to get female players really happy.. Did you even see the ME3 dress?

Male player here. Liked Femshep's dress, hated her build. She should have looked a little older and should have been a little bigger. For a character like Shepard she should have had bigger arms, chest (not breasts(although a slider to adjust that might have been nice, just saying)) and torso. Make her look strong and fit not slight and malnurished.

[Naltair]

I would never expect a game to have as many same sex options as there are hetero relations, that just seems silly. I am not saying same-sex is silly, but you play the numbers and most people will want hetero options. I won't fault them for that.

As to Kelly Chambers, she was an Easter Egg, thus why she seemed more anemic than other options. You had to fulfill certain, albeit easy criteria to unlock the "romance".

[RedChannels]

Just because you have to choose between one or the other on Virmire doesn't mean that they're gender-swaps of the same character. Kaiden is apparently bisexual. Ashley is clearly not. I'm glad you can have same-sex romance in Mass Effect 3 again, but I respect the fact that Bioware stays true to the characters instead of making them all bisexual. That would be highly unrealistic.

Modifié par RedChannels, 26 mars 2012 - 06:41 .

[KTheAlchemist]

RedChannels wrote...

Just because you have to choose between one or the other on Virmire doesn't mean that they're gender-swaps of the same character. Kaiden is apparently bisexual. Ashley is clearly not. I'm glad you can have same-sex romance in Mass Effect 3 again, but I respect the fact that Bioware stays true to the characters instead of making them all bisexual. That would be highly unrealistic.

Possible, but I dont' know about "clearly".

They even went as far as recording romance dialog with FemShep, which was later discovered in the game files.

Why is this relevant? Well, to the "canon" status of Ashley it isn't. But if there's ever been one whit of writing talent at Bioware, it means that the idea of her being bisexual isn't bizaarre or out of character for her.

If this got as far as recorded dialog, that means that Ashley's character was written, proofread, discussed, tossed around, and green lit by the time the recordings were made. They later went back and changed (Yes, pre-release change, not patched in), the game to make Ashley purely heterosexual, removing said content from the game. Unless they completely went back and rewrote all of Ashley's dialog and character after making that change (extremely unlikely), this likely means that most of Ashley's content was written with this potential to her character already amongst the work the writers did.

Modifié par KTheAlchemist, 26 mars 2012 - 06:53 .