382 réponses à ce sujet

[Aesieru]

Double post*

Modifié par Aesieru, 25 mars 2012 - 10:40 .

[d.nichols]

Salis777 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The ending was fine. Damn it everyone, you set back our efforts to make gamers look like normal people by 20 years.

You mean the normal people who express outrage at things they feel outrage at? Such as at protests against corporations and police brutality and college tuition rates, and other such things? Or the normal people who kill children and their parents while running in front of their car so as to get them to stop so that they can get their car from them?

Those normal people?

I think you know what I'm trying to get at. Many people, including those guys at fox news are trying to paint as anti social nerds. A lot of people think we're strange, and while normal people aren't exactly perfect, at least we won't be looked down upon when they accept us.

So you're saying that, provided we're apparently some subset of Humanity, that we SHOULDN'T look down on them? You know because of what they do that's 10x worse and the destruction of society as we know it?

I don't care what FOX News thinks, or CNN or MSNBC, they are crap news channels that are 100% owned by corporations looking for money. Maybe before it was illegal to own more than 49% of a news company they were impartial, they aren't now.

This.  At best they're entertainment, at worst they're someones agenda (i.e. keep the little people sidetracked while the banks eat the country)

Both of this^2

[addiction21]

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

It is badly written but I can explain some things or at least try to shed some light from my point of view.

Start it at 20:40

The first wave. All I see it destroying are space debris but the reapers affected dont explode. The first one is top center and gets engulfed but no explosion. A little below that one is caught next but its the debris that explode and the same for the one to the bottom right.
Then you see earth. Big Ben is fine and the Reapers just topple over. The mako, the soliders, guns, and armor (all based to some extent on the technology of the Reapers, Mass Relays and what was left) appear perfectly fine.
It cuts back into space where the Citidel shoots the beam to the Relay network and there are Reapers intact still floating.

Since we are shown that wave or whatever has no effect on the on those ground troops (they dont even get the colored energy rippling over their surface like the Reapers do) I will assume its safe the fleet did not.
Not showing any of the allied fleets or ships is a mistake.
Now that I have taken a closer look why is it all those Reapers seem to not be moving and there are zero allied vessels there? Indoc theory and the fleets retreated when nothing happened? Still bad writing if we have to guess at these things.

Then you get the Normandy *Insert facepalm jpg*
So whatever reason Normanday made a Mass Relay jump. Joker does seem to be pushing the Normady over the edge. That wave does form some sort of circle so the Normandy is not in direct contact with that energy but the ripple of energy that is on the Reapers hits the engine (and only the engine it does not run over any part of the ship) while the ship gets pushed around.
Which begs the question. How the **** can you survive reentry with no engines? All we see is the fuselage.

Bad writting. Not enough show. Not enough tell.

I still dont care I am finishing my ME1 and ME2 playthrus and will be playing thru ME3 at least twice more.

[Salis777]

addiction21 wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

It is badly written but I can explain some things or at least try to shed some light from my point of view.

Start it at 20:40

The first wave. All I see it destroying are space debris but the reapers affected dont explode. The first one is top center and gets engulfed but no explosion. A little below that one is caught next but its the debris that explode and the same for the one to the bottom right.
Then you see earth. Big Ben is fine and the Reapers just topple over. The mako, the soliders, guns, and armor (all based to some extent on the technology of the Reapers, Mass Relays and what was left) appear perfectly fine.
It cuts back into space where the Citidel shoots the beam to the Relay network and there are Reapers intact still floating.

Since we are shown that wave or whatever has no effect on the on those ground troops (they dont even get the colored energy rippling over their surface like the Reapers do) I will assume its safe the fleet did not.
Not showing any of the allied fleets or ships is a mistake.
Now that I have taken a closer look why is it all those Reapers seem to not be moving and there are zero allied vessels there? Indoc theory and the fleets retreated when nothing happened? Still bad writing if we have to guess at these things.

Then you get the Normandy *Insert facepalm jpg*
So whatever reason Normanday made a Mass Relay jump. Joker does seem to be pushing the Normady over the edge. That wave does form some sort of circle so the Normandy is not in direct contact with that energy but the ripple of energy that is on the Reapers hits the engine (and only the engine it does not run over any part of the ship) while the ship gets pushed around.
Which begs the question. How the **** can you survive reentry with no engines? All we see is the fuselage.

Bad writting. Not enough show. Not enough tell.

I still dont care I am finishing my ME1 and ME2 playthrus and will be playing thru ME3 at least twice more.

Yeah I mean there are certainly ways to rationalise the endings.  But really, if it was well written the ending debate would be about other more interesting parts of the story.

It's just a mess and that leads people to try and defend the mess, trust me I bet most people would give a mile to Bioware storywise - it just doesn't work at all.  And thats a serious problem.  Its a sign of really bad writing that people are trying to fix your story in their heads lol.

[Random Geth]

Wow, what a complete and utter tool. It honestly makes me wonder if he actually saw the ending, or played any of the previous two games. Not that it's THAT surprising, coming from this source.

[slimgrin]

Random Geth wrote...

Wow, what a complete and utter tool. It honestly makes me wonder if he actually saw the ending, or played any of the previous two games. Not that it's THAT surprising, coming from this source.

I suspect many reviewers didn't play all three games.

[Horus Blackheart]

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The ending was fine. Damn it everyone, you set back our efforts to make gamers look like normal people by 20 years.

I faill to see how people calling out things that are arguably badly written and or implamented sets any such effort back. If anything it shows how far things have progressed. People arnt pasivly taking what thay are given, Bioware laps up all the cosplay and adulation and this is the otherside of that blade. I cant for one minute see how this type of reaction was not forseen on some level internaly.

Artistic ntegraty will always give way to practcality. And if bioware want to go with lii conceved High art then thay  can save it for the comics, books or other asorted extended universe stuff.
Lastly my being a gamer does not  define who i am or what i stand for.  I wish people would stop trying to lable everything in order to valadate what ever shallow argument they are making.

[Edrick1976]

Once again I watch or read something from MSNBC and I leave feeling like I just been insulted....

[grYnnAn]

Bomma72 wrote...

Yeah us MINORITY are all just to stupid to understand the greatness of the ending.

Darn it, I was  looking for the "facebook Like-button"..
There was none, so I just qoute and sign my name:

Grynnan

[Salis777]

Horus Blackheart wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The ending was fine. Damn it everyone, you set back our efforts to make gamers look like normal people by 20 years.

I faill to see how people calling out things that are arguably badly written and or implamented sets any such effort back. If anything it shows how far things have progressed. People arnt pasivly taking what thay are given, Bioware laps up all the cosplay and adulation and this is the otherside of that blade. I cant for one minute see how this type of reaction was not forseen on some level internaly.

Artistic ntegraty will always give way to practcality. And if bioware want to go with lii conceved High art then thay  can save it for the comics, books or other asorted extended universe stuff.
Lastly my being a gamer does not  define who i am or what i stand for.  I wish people would stop trying to lable everything in order to valadate what ever shallow argument they are making.

Agreed, I think it's healthy for producers of a product to take criticism.  It allows them to improve their products and please their consumers.  Works for every other industry out there.  To say that the gaming industry is set back 20 years by having a normal producer/consumer relationship is silly...

In fact I'd argue the complete opposite.  It's about time people stood up as consumers and told this industry how they feel.  It's time the very poor level of gaming journalism catches up to the level the rest of the business world expects. 

It's time for this $60bn gaming industry to stop feeling entitled to sell unfinished products on pre-order, or that they are not subject to rebuke or criticism because they are artists.  Please.

Modifié par Salis777, 25 mars 2012 - 10:59 .

[mmm buddah23]

Yup, because someone having done nothing for the galaxy and being an ass to everyone, and causing absolute chaos should get the SAME options for an ending as someone who united the galaxy, brought peace to unlikely allies, and chose the high road helping everyone.....wait...no they shouldnt..... this guy is an idiot.

[addiction21]

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah I mean there are certainly ways to rationalise the endings.  But really, if it was well written the ending debate would be about other more interesting parts of the story.

It's just a mess and that leads people to try and defend the mess, trust me I bet most people would give a mile to Bioware storywise - it just doesn't work at all.  And thats a serious problem.  Its a sign of really bad writing that people are trying to fix your story in their heads lol.

There are parts that do to be fixed but the whole "the wave light shockwave thing obliterates everything" is wrong. It is clearly shown to be wrong.

But it is confusing. I should not have needed to spend the time I did going over it frame by frame to pick things out. I should not have to compare it to "The Arrival" ending to see the stark difference in these explosions.

[addiction21]

wastelander75 wrote...

The only way this disagreement is ever going to be rectified is if a WRITER on the GAME comes forth and actually says what's what. Until then it's all speculation and rumor and personal perspective/opinion.

You believe it could be rectified? +1 for humanity

[kbct]

I love it. No one seems to be buying what the "professional" reviewer is selling.

Thanks for sharing the link, OP. It's a good example of why people shouldn't trust professional reviews.

[The Razman]

Salis777 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The pulse was short range, and it happens too quick for him to decide to run from it

You can quite clearly see in the endings that the pulse is travelling quite slowly, in comparison to the speeds we know the Normandy can do.

If he was somehow running from that, and hit the relay before the beam hit it, then since mass-free corridors of space are near instant or sometimes instanteous transport, there would actually be nothing to run from since he'd of beaten the nova, then of course the relays all explode and he dies from that (since it hits the entirety of the galaxy).

Mass relays are not instantaneous transport. I don't know where you got that idea from.

The codex.

 

Oh snap!@

*sigh* Observe, children, travel through a mass relay from the perspective of the ship. And notice how NON-instantaneous it is.

Really, don't you people pay attention to the game at all?

Modifié par The Razman, 26 mars 2012 - 12:57 .

[The Razman]

Salis777 wrote...

Horus Blackheart wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The ending was fine. Damn it everyone, you set back our efforts to make gamers look like normal people by 20 years.

I faill to see how people calling out things that are arguably badly written and or implamented sets any such effort back. If anything it shows how far things have progressed. People arnt pasivly taking what thay are given, Bioware laps up all the cosplay and adulation and this is the otherside of that blade. I cant for one minute see how this type of reaction was not forseen on some level internaly.

Artistic ntegraty will always give way to practcality. And if bioware want to go with lii conceved High art then thay  can save it for the comics, books or other asorted extended universe stuff.
Lastly my being a gamer does not  define who i am or what i stand for.  I wish people would stop trying to lable everything in order to valadate what ever shallow argument they are making.

Agreed, I think it's healthy for producers of a product to take criticism.  It allows them to improve their products and please their consumers.  Works for every other industry out there.  To say that the gaming industry is set back 20 years by having a normal producer/consumer relationship is silly...

In fact I'd argue the complete opposite.  It's about time people stood up as consumers and told this industry how they feel.  It's time the very poor level of gaming journalism catches up to the level the rest of the business world expects. 

It's time for this $60bn gaming industry to stop feeling entitled to sell unfinished products on pre-order, or that they are not subject to rebuke or criticism because they are artists.  Please.

You can tell an industry how you feel just fine by not buying it's products. Trying to get them to change their artistic products simply for you isn't making your voice heard ... it's attempting to put your hands in there and fiddle yourself.

But that's another matter.

[InvincibleHero]

Aesieru wrote...

Since the shockwaves come FROM the relays... he'd have to be near a relay to "run from it" in the first place. There was no reason for him to be there as opposed to at the planet the fight was over.

How do you know conclusively that it was not simply spinning up the FTL like Joker did in ME2 to escape the collectors? That is a very quick process even when he had EDI select a destinantion.  We never saw how either of the travel methods worked from within as the cutscene at the end does.

They never show everything and they don't always properly set up scenes. If BW does not answer the questions after reasonable amount of time (they have said they will per Myzuka), then it might be fair criticism. After all they did the writing and created the universe and know why they did things presented in the game to you. You are just saying I know more than the writers with no real proof other than the things they exhibited in the game which might not tell the whole story.

[tetrisblock4x1]

That guy is a ****ing toolbox.

[tetrisblock4x1]

addiction21 wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

It is badly written but I can explain some things or at least try to shed some light from my point of view.

Start it at 20:40

The first wave. All I see it destroying are space debris but the reapers affected dont explode. The first one is top center and gets engulfed but no explosion. A little below that one is caught next but its the debris that explode and the same for the one to the bottom right.
Then you see earth. Big Ben is fine and the Reapers just topple over. The mako, the soliders, guns, and armor (all based to some extent on the technology of the Reapers, Mass Relays and what was left) appear perfectly fine.
It cuts back into space where the Citidel shoots the beam to the Relay network and there are Reapers intact still floating.

Since we are shown that wave or whatever has no effect on the on those ground troops (they dont even get the colored energy rippling over their surface like the Reapers do) I will assume its safe the fleet did not.
Not showing any of the allied fleets or ships is a mistake.
Now that I have taken a closer look why is it all those Reapers seem to not be moving and there are zero allied vessels there? Indoc theory and the fleets retreated when nothing happened? Still bad writing if we have to guess at these things.

Then you get the Normandy *Insert facepalm jpg*
So whatever reason Normanday made a Mass Relay jump. Joker does seem to be pushing the Normady over the edge. That wave does form some sort of circle so the Normandy is not in direct contact with that energy but the ripple of energy that is on the Reapers hits the engine (and only the engine it does not run over any part of the ship) while the ship gets pushed around.
Which begs the question. How the **** can you survive reentry with no engines? All we see is the fuselage.

Bad writting. Not enough show. Not enough tell.

I still dont care I am finishing my ME1 and ME2 playthrus and will be playing thru ME3 at least twice more.

If you have to explain why something made sense then it didn't. We're not the ones who should make sense of things, that is Biowares job.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 26 mars 2012 - 02:51 .

[Hunter of Legends]

The Razman wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Horus Blackheart wrote...

pmac_tk421 wrote...

The ending was fine. Damn it everyone, you set back our efforts to make gamers look like normal people by 20 years.

I faill to see how people calling out things that are arguably badly written and or implamented sets any such effort back. If anything it shows how far things have progressed. People arnt pasivly taking what thay are given, Bioware laps up all the cosplay and adulation and this is the otherside of that blade. I cant for one minute see how this type of reaction was not forseen on some level internaly.

Artistic ntegraty will always give way to practcality. And if bioware want to go with lii conceved High art then thay  can save it for the comics, books or other asorted extended universe stuff.
Lastly my being a gamer does not  define who i am or what i stand for.  I wish people would stop trying to lable everything in order to valadate what ever shallow argument they are making.

Agreed, I think it's healthy for producers of a product to take criticism.  It allows them to improve their products and please their consumers.  Works for every other industry out there.  To say that the gaming industry is set back 20 years by having a normal producer/consumer relationship is silly...

In fact I'd argue the complete opposite.  It's about time people stood up as consumers and told this industry how they feel.  It's time the very poor level of gaming journalism catches up to the level the rest of the business world expects. 

It's time for this $60bn gaming industry to stop feeling entitled to sell unfinished products on pre-order, or that they are not subject to rebuke or criticism because they are artists.  Please.

You can tell an industry how you feel just fine by not buying it's products. Trying to get them to change their artistic products simply for you isn't making your voice heard ... it's attempting to put your hands in there and fiddle yourself.

But that's another matter.

Video games aren't Art.

Works of fiction have changed endings/elements.

[Heimdall]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

It is badly written but I can explain some things or at least try to shed some light from my point of view.

Start it at 20:40

The first wave. All I see it destroying are space debris but the reapers affected dont explode. The first one is top center and gets engulfed but no explosion. A little below that one is caught next but its the debris that explode and the same for the one to the bottom right.
Then you see earth. Big Ben is fine and the Reapers just topple over. The mako, the soliders, guns, and armor (all based to some extent on the technology of the Reapers, Mass Relays and what was left) appear perfectly fine.
It cuts back into space where the Citidel shoots the beam to the Relay network and there are Reapers intact still floating.

Since we are shown that wave or whatever has no effect on the on those ground troops (they dont even get the colored energy rippling over their surface like the Reapers do) I will assume its safe the fleet did not.
Not showing any of the allied fleets or ships is a mistake.
Now that I have taken a closer look why is it all those Reapers seem to not be moving and there are zero allied vessels there? Indoc theory and the fleets retreated when nothing happened? Still bad writing if we have to guess at these things.

Then you get the Normandy *Insert facepalm jpg*
So whatever reason Normanday made a Mass Relay jump. Joker does seem to be pushing the Normady over the edge. That wave does form some sort of circle so the Normandy is not in direct contact with that energy but the ripple of energy that is on the Reapers hits the engine (and only the engine it does not run over any part of the ship) while the ship gets pushed around.
Which begs the question. How the **** can you survive reentry with no engines? All we see is the fuselage.

Bad writting. Not enough show. Not enough tell.

I still dont care I am finishing my ME1 and ME2 playthrus and will be playing thru ME3 at least twice more.

If you have to explain why something made sense then it didn't. We're not the ones who should make sense of things, that is Biowares job.

Yes, obviously they should treat gamers as if they are too stupid to think themselves... Oh, wait...

[Aesieru]

The Razman wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The pulse was short range, and it happens too quick for him to decide to run from it

You can quite clearly see in the endings that the pulse is travelling quite slowly, in comparison to the speeds we know the Normandy can do.

If he was somehow running from that, and hit the relay before the beam hit it, then since mass-free corridors of space are near instant or sometimes instanteous transport, there would actually be nothing to run from since he'd of beaten the nova, then of course the relays all explode and he dies from that (since it hits the entirety of the galaxy).

Mass relays are not instantaneous transport. I don't know where you got that idea from.

The codex.

 

Oh snap!@

*sigh* Observe, children, travel through a mass relay from the perspective of the ship. And notice how NON-instantaneous it is.

Really, don't you people pay attention to the game at all?

So you're arguing with the codex then, instead of realizing that games and movies always have long scenes in transit for sake of drama and excitement?

Also that took 5 seconds literally, even if that was not instant, based on what we know about how "quick Joker could get to the relay" and how LONG it took for the relays to overcharge, his 5 seconds would of been more than enough, plus his 5 seconds was going to the center of the galaxy.

Modifié par Aesieru, 26 mars 2012 - 03:04 .

[Avolie]

Opinions are like ****holes... everyone has one

[tetrisblock4x1]

Lord Aesir wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

It is badly written but I can explain some things or at least try to shed some light from my point of view.

Start it at 20:40

The first wave. All I see it destroying are space debris but the reapers affected dont explode. The first one is top center and gets engulfed but no explosion. A little below that one is caught next but its the debris that explode and the same for the one to the bottom right.
Then you see earth. Big Ben is fine and the Reapers just topple over. The mako, the soliders, guns, and armor (all based to some extent on the technology of the Reapers, Mass Relays and what was left) appear perfectly fine.
It cuts back into space where the Citidel shoots the beam to the Relay network and there are Reapers intact still floating.

Since we are shown that wave or whatever has no effect on the on those ground troops (they dont even get the colored energy rippling over their surface like the Reapers do) I will assume its safe the fleet did not.
Not showing any of the allied fleets or ships is a mistake.
Now that I have taken a closer look why is it all those Reapers seem to not be moving and there are zero allied vessels there? Indoc theory and the fleets retreated when nothing happened? Still bad writing if we have to guess at these things.

Then you get the Normandy *Insert facepalm jpg*
So whatever reason Normanday made a Mass Relay jump. Joker does seem to be pushing the Normady over the edge. That wave does form some sort of circle so the Normandy is not in direct contact with that energy but the ripple of energy that is on the Reapers hits the engine (and only the engine it does not run over any part of the ship) while the ship gets pushed around.
Which begs the question. How the **** can you survive reentry with no engines? All we see is the fuselage.

Bad writting. Not enough show. Not enough tell.

I still dont care I am finishing my ME1 and ME2 playthrus and will be playing thru ME3 at least twice more.

If you have to explain why something made sense then it didn't. We're not the ones who should make sense of things, that is Biowares job.

Yes, obviously they should treat gamers as if they are too stupid to think themselves... Oh, wait...

That might be acceptable from an arthouse indie developer, but space operas by definition of the genre are unambiguous. Note that I'm not suggesting that Bioware remove all of the mystery and intrigue out of the setting, but inconsistency with the mass relay explosions and introducing plot emelents that we had no way to see coming that aren't connected with anything is not acceptable.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 26 mars 2012 - 03:07 .