382 réponses à ce sujet

[nikki191]

"The ending was on theme with the rest of the Mass Effect universe" "there are no plot holes"

*scratches head* we are talking about Mass effect 3 right? the game made by bioware, that is the sequel to mass effect 2?

[The Razman]

Talon2000uk wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Why didn't any other ships run away then?

Yep, confirmed ... you reaaaally haven't read this thread. *sigh*

Quick answer, just for you ... remember the bit just before going into that final battle where Anderson's specifically saying how the Normandy is the fastest ship in the fleet, and that's why it'll be heading the fleet into battle? The Normandy's the only ship fast enough.

Could you stop throwing old, debunked questions at me ad nauseum because you couldn't be bothered to read the thread?

Wow thats one well calibrated shockwave fast enough to destroy the rest of the fleet tbut only just fast enough to catch the normandy at exactly the right place in FTL to land on a a habitible garden world. Very well Calibrated that. 

It was Garus wasn't it.

He's got Tali now, don't need no calibrations.

But no, that's where the speculation based on facts stops. We simply can't know. Maybe some of the fleet made it into the relays too, maybe some of them attempted to run from the shockwave too. The fact that we never even see the Normandy doing its initial run makes it impossible for us to speculate. What we do know is the Normandy made it into the mass relay ... and that there was a plausible gap between the shockwave starting and the mass relays being destroyed, and that Joker would have a plasuible reason for trying to get to the relay (big frickin' shockwave coming at him).

Sure, bad writing possibly. In fact, I'm in agreement that there's not enough shown, cinematically. But what's wrong with that explanation, logically?

[Hunter of Legends]

What I gathered from the video and Razman

They have no clue what a plot hole is.

[The Razman]

Salis777 wrote...

Shepard is alive, maybe not in your save but he is in mine

I will concede that he is alive if you can give me a plausible explanation for how.

And so help me god, the first person to suggest Indoctrination will get a Singularity thrown at them.

[Salis777]

The Razman wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

Shepard is alive, maybe not in your save but he is in mine

I will concede that he is alive if you can give me a plausible explanation for how.

And so help me god, the first person to suggest Indoctrination will get a Singularity thrown at them.

In the EMS > 5000 destroy ending, Shepard lives.  As for how, I have no idea - the ending doesn't make sense.  You're the one suggesting it does.

My question was, if the citadel exploding causes a shockwave that only kills reapers, why are the Normany's engines destroyed, and how is shepard still alive?

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

Talon2000uk wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Hunter of Legends wrote...

Why didn't any other ships run away then?

Yep, confirmed ... you reaaaally haven't read this thread. *sigh*

Quick answer, just for you ... remember the bit just before going into that final battle where Anderson's specifically saying how the Normandy is the fastest ship in the fleet, and that's why it'll be heading the fleet into battle? The Normandy's the only ship fast enough.

Could you stop throwing old, debunked questions at me ad nauseum because you couldn't be bothered to read the thread?

Wow thats one well calibrated shockwave fast enough to destroy the rest of the fleet tbut only just fast enough to catch the normandy at exactly the right place in FTL to land on a a habitible garden world. Very well Calibrated that. 

It was Garus wasn't it.

He's got Tali now, don't need no calibrations.

But no, that's where the speculation based on facts stops. We simply can't know. Maybe some of the fleet made it into the relays too, maybe some of them attempted to run from the shockwave too. The fact that we never even see the Normandy doing its initial run makes it impossible for us to speculate. What we do know is the Normandy made it into the mass relay ... and that there was a plausible gap between the shockwave starting and the mass relays being destroyed, and that Joker would have a plasuible reason for trying to get to the relay (big frickin' shockwave coming at him).

Sure, bad writing possibly. In fact, I'm in agreement that there's not enough shown, cinematically. But what's wrong with that explanation, logically?

Because the Relay for Sol is around Pluto.

The Normandy could never have gotten there and plotted a jump in time.

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

[Russalka]

Could have worded it better.

[SpideyKnight]

Bcoolpro wrote...

StabGuy wrote...

His job paid him to make that video, just as his job doesn't want him upsetting developers.

So he isn't in a position to say it's a bad ending.

Reviewers are bribed with exclusives and sneak-peak views of future titles. It's what keeps their services one step ahead of the rest.

This argument doesn't make sense to me... just because he is paid to offer an opinion (one that differs from yours) then it means he's a corporate shill?  By that logic pro-sports aren't sports because the athletes are getting paid.

No, whether he's a corporate shill or not is irrelevant to the larger issue at hand.  He is a sheep and a particularly dense one at that.  The fact that he has the audacity to say the ending might have gone over my head and then posit that there are no plotholes is lunacy.  Not humorous lunacy either, but blind, utterly devoted, Harley Quinn's devotion to Joker lunacy.  

If there are no plotholes, perhaps he can explain any number of the videos, blogs, posts, etc that lay the plot holes out for you.  Pick one, it matters not which.  This is the inherent problem here.  The so-called "pros" are too busy being smug to be reasonably intelligent.  There's a reason why hundreds, if not thousands of videos exist to prove that the endings are full of holes and yet I haven't seen a single one from the side of those who like the ending and believe it to be perfect.  This guy is a perfect candidate.  Make your video, tell me what I missed and I will eat my words and admit your superior intellect.  But you won't, and more importantly you can't.

Before anyone chimes in with the indoc theory note that the indoc theory was researched and made by many of the same people who want a better ending.  They wouldn't have poured so much work into the theory if they believed the ending was fine like this guy does.  Most importantly, the indoc theory has zero substantive proof in it's favor and a plethora of developer quotes and insider news that point to it not being the case.  In addition to that, the indoc theory is a blatant non-ending.  Because, if it is true, this story is not over and it was supposed to be.

[Aesieru]

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Bubalo wrote...

In what Joker would do, tell me, any where in the series did Joker ever run from a fight? Yes he ran from EMPs ad explosions but did he ever run from an unknown? If he was so concerned with outrunning the shockwave why not sit further out to see what the shockwave did to other ships before running? The problem with the Normandy bit is the consistency of the character as well as the crew that has served with Shepard through think and thin. 

The fact that in the Final Hours app, Mac says investigory questions pertaining to the StarChild are cut as well as other longer sequences means there could be information we are not aware of which means at this point your's as well as others "logical explanations" could be false.

How is a shockwave coming towards the Normandy "a fight"? You're right, this is about the consistency of the character. And I'm not on board with the concept that Joker being an absolute idiot and thinking "Hm ... there's a shockwave coming towards us. I guess I'll just sit here and do nothing, because even though I have no idea what's going on, I'm sure the great big wave coming towards us is harmless. After all, when have great big massive supernova-like waves ever hurt anyone in the past, huh?"

Joker doesn't run from fights, but this ain't a fight. It's a shockwave. People arguing "JOKER WOULD NEVER RUN!" are basically arguing that Joker would just fly like an idiot into a shockwave without knowing anything about it. I like to give Joker a bit more intellectual credit than that, personally.

Since the shockwaves come FROM the relays... he'd have to be near a relay to "run from it" in the first place. There was no reason for him to be there as opposed to at the planet the fight was over.

Take a look at the scene where the fleet arrives in the Sol System again. See that sun? That's Earth's sun, that is. Doesn't look very far away, does it ...?

The Sol Relay isn't that far away from Earth, in reality. Not considering how fast the Normandy is. Joker could easily have reached it ahead of the shockwave and entered the relay.

I actually quite expect a short addition to the ending cut-scene in the future DLC which shows this to be the case.

That makes no sense.

If the relay is exploding and causing a shock wave, there is no way to escape it to another relay, no other relay exists to go to.

Unless you think the Crucible was emitting the nova, but that's not how it works, it emitted a beam.

No, you've misunderstood.

Sequence of events:

1. Sheperd sets off the shockwave.
2. Shockwave travels outward from the Citadel quite slowly, enveloping Earth and all the Reapers.
3. Citadel then explodes sending out its high-speed beam.
4. Beam hits mass relay, which sends it out over whole network.

In between 2 and 3, there's a gap where the first shockwave is being emitted (which Joker would be running from), but the Citadel hasn't send out its beam to the mass relays yet. That gap is what we're referring to, where Joker would have time to make a mass relay jump.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?!

Did it ever occur to you that the shockwave in the cutscene is DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than the PULSE released by the Crucible?

Becasue they are, you can even analyze the scene if you like.

[Icinix]

Every time someone implies I don't understand the ending - StarChild kills a Reaper Baby.

At this rate, the Crucible will be redundant.

[The Razman]

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

[The Razman]

Aesieru wrote...

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?!

Did it ever occur to you that the shockwave in the cutscene is DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than the PULSE released by the Crucible?

Becasue they are, you can even analyze the scene if you like.

... yes? That's exactly the point I was making?

Are you feeling ok?

[AlexMBrennan]

[quote][The ending] might have gone over some people's heads. Whether you like the ending is a matter of opinion, and not intelligence [quotes may be paraphrased][/quote]
Hang on...
[quote]It serves less as an ending and more as a beginning [for the rest of the ME franchise[/quote]
And how does this make ME3 a good ending to the ME trilogy, which is kinda what it was supposed, or at least advertised, to be?

[Salis777]

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

[Icinix]

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

The scanning? Serious? That already goes against the lore somewhat. Regardless - it doesn't take long for them to catch you if you stay in the system.

As stated - he would have already had to have been on the run to get any distance away from the shockwave - also the Reapers are faster. Why weren't they running? Why was the Normandy the only thing running? Why did the shockwave do damage to the Normandy when it didn't do damage to anything else? (not low EMS Destroy of course).

Then to top it off, Joker somehow picked up my dead squad mates and revived them?

[The Razman]

Salis777 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

Yes. THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT SHOCKWAVES.

Sorry for the caps, but that couldn't be any clearer. There's the initial shockwave which envelopes Earth, and the one which hits the mass relays. They're quite clearly very separate (and the second is much more powerful, and much faster). And what you've done is assume that Joker had knowledge of what the shockwave was, that one was going to hit the mass relay, and then said "Well, I know this about the shockwave, so why didn't Joker? What he did makes no sense, knowing what I know!"

You're not picking logical inconsistencies out of anything, my friend. You've just misunderstood this a little.

[Fawx9]

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?!

Did it ever occur to you that the shockwave in the cutscene is DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than the PULSE released by the Crucible?

Becasue they are, you can even analyze the scene if you like.

... yes? That's exactly the point I was making?

Are you feeling ok?

Here's the thing. The fleet is positioned between earth and the Crucible or nearby it to help protect it. Even if Joker was so close to earth that he could see the blast coming, theres no real way to avoid it. It's expanding in the shape of a sphere, he should get hit. The only way not to would be to fly behind the earth and slingshot to at 90 degrees then make it to the relay before the beam. I just don't see that ahppening.

The only way to outrun it would have been if he was a far enough distance behind the Crucible to see the sphere emerge from it an react.

Now why the hell is he that far back I have no idea.

[kalle90]

Icinix wrote...
Then to top it off, Joker somehow picked up my dead squad mates and revived them?

This is all that needs to be said. The scene in general is just...

[The Razman]

Icinix wrote...

The scanning? Serious? That already goes against the lore somewhat. Regardless - it doesn't take long for them to catch you if you stay in the system.

How does the scanning go against the lore? And yes, they catch you ... if you let them. You can outrun the Reapers easily in the Normandy. The Normandy is just that fast.

As stated - he would have already had to have been on the run to get any distance away from the shockwave - also the Reapers are faster. Why weren't they running? Why was the Normandy the only thing running? Why did the shockwave do damage to the Normandy when it didn't do damage to anything else? (not low EMS Destroy of course).

Why would he have to be on the run already to get any distance away from the shockwave? The shockwave is travelling quite slowly, as you can see from the scenes of it travelling across Earth. Also, the Normandy got hit by the shockwave which hit the mass relays, while everything else was enveloped by the wave emitted from the Citadel ... the one which hit the relays was, as is obvious from the utter power which was emitted by the Citadel, much more powerful.

Then to top it off, Joker somehow picked up my dead squad mates and revived them?

That, I'll give you. It's possible that the Normandy picked up the crew that were regrouping after the failed attempt on the Citadel beam (your crewmates never actually died, from what we saw), but it's a leap of logic to make. One of the things I expect to be cleared up in these new endings.

[Hunter of Legends]

Razman is clearly a fool.

Nothing to see here folks.

[Salis777]

The Razman wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

Yes. THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT SHOCKWAVES.

Sorry for the caps, but that couldn't be any clearer. There's the initial shockwave which envelopes Earth, and the one which hits the mass relays. They're quite clearly very separate (and the second is much more powerful, and much faster). And what you've done is assume that Joker had knowledge of what the shockwave was, that one was going to hit the mass relay, and then said "Well, I know this about the shockwave, so why didn't Joker? What he did makes no sense, knowing what I know!"

You're not picking logical inconsistencies out of anything, my friend. You've just misunderstood this a little.

So Joker runs away from a shockwave which 'slowly envelops Earth' by chickening out at high speed, flying to a relay across the system and jumping to another system (and thus getting hit by the really bad shockwave that hits the relays).  So not only does it contradict the fact that Joker wouldn't run, it also implies Joker and EDI are stupid and like to fly into explosions.

That makes sense

Modifié par Salis777, 25 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[terdferguson123]

Farbautisonn wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

Well, you are whining, insults can be true you know.

1.) The fact that you answer this completely sarcastically and with mass amounts of exaggeration shows just how you are not able to see any other view but your significant bias

2.) The fact that you answer this completely sarcastically and with mass amounts of exaggeration shows just how you are not able to see any other view but your significant bias.

3.) The fact that you answer this completely sarcastically and with mass amounts of exaggeration shows just how you are not able to see any other view but your significant bias.

4.) I think you get the picture.

5.) "   "

6.) .

Or it could be that you are simply grasping at straws and that he is employing sarcasm to try to get you to realize that. Your answer are non answers as you simply try to snidely bypass all of his valid points by using an implied ad hominem to colour his opinion invalid.


Its not working.


Answer the questions or please... dont try to.

Actually, its the other way around. I gave perfectly good answers in my first response to him, and he deflected all of them by throwing out massive exaggerations.

[The Razman]

Salis777 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Salis777 wrote...

The Razman wrote...

Icinix wrote...

Reapers can outrun the Normandy.

Which you see throughout the game, when scanning for resources on planets ...?

Joker would not leave. Its Joker. Its the Normandy crew - at what point have they ever cut and run unless under Shepards orders?

Just answer me this. Would Joker simply do nothing when a big shockwave was coming at him? What about running from an all enveloping shockwave is "cutting and running"?

He didn't run from a fight. He ran from something he assumed was dangerous and going to destroy the Normandy.

Yeah and he was right, it destroyed the engines.  So you can assume it destroyed the fleet on earth.  Or are we saying the shockwave was only between the relays?  And if thats the case why would Joker run towards a relay?  Because there was a shockwave at the citadel?  So there're 2 different shockwaves?  I mean I could pull logical inconsistancy out of this all day.

It's badly written.  Don't bother trying to explain it.

Yes. THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT SHOCKWAVES.

Sorry for the caps, but that couldn't be any clearer. There's the initial shockwave which envelopes Earth, and the one which hits the mass relays. They're quite clearly very separate (and the second is much more powerful, and much faster). And what you've done is assume that Joker had knowledge of what the shockwave was, that one was going to hit the mass relay, and then said "Well, I know this about the shockwave, so why didn't Joker? What he did makes no sense, knowing what I know!"

You're not picking logical inconsistencies out of anything, my friend. You've just misunderstood this a little.

So Joker runs away from a shockwave which 'slowly envelops Earth' by chickening out at high speed, flying to a relay across the system and jumping to another system (and thus getting hit by the really bad shockwave that hits the relays).  So not only does it contradict the fact that Joker wouldn't run, it also implies Joker and EDI are stupid and like to fly into explosions.

That makes sense

*sigh* Again ... you know there's going to be an explosion. You've seen it, you're the player. How is Joker supposed to know the entire mass relay network is going to be destroyed?

No offence, but what you're doing is the equivilent of when kids watch the TV and say "Why is that lady trusting that man?? I just saw him steal stuff from her purse!!"

[Aesieru]

The Razman wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT?!

Did it ever occur to you that the shockwave in the cutscene is DRASTICALLY DIFFERENT than the PULSE released by the Crucible?

Becasue they are, you can even analyze the scene if you like.

... yes? That's exactly the point I was making?

Are you feeling ok?

Then you proved yourself wrong then.

The pulse isn't what Joker is running from, so no need to run, he's obviously not running from a giant beam of energy not targeting him either, and since he's not running from either he is therefore not at the relay that explodes into the nova that he is somehow running from.