40 réponses à ce sujet

[lv12medic]

When you first get to Ostagar pre-battle you can talk to the guard by the gate that leads to the Tower of Ishal.  He mentions that the men posted there found underground tunnels and such.  Considering that Loghain stationed his own men there (from the war room meeting prior to the battle), is it possible Loghain knew about the tunnels and guessed that the darkspawn would use them to overrun the tower?

Because to me, that makes more sense than planning all along to withdraw once the beacon was lit.  He would have a much more plausable excuse about withdrawing, saying that the signal was never sent and King Cailan's forces were overrun because of that.

[wonko33]

There is a bug on that quest, because when you light the beacon, Loghain never sees it and leaves. I reloaded and tried over and over to do it but he never sees it. It's a bad bug because then the King and Duncan die.

[Lianaar]

There are a lots of speculations on this. I think it is plausible to think that yes, he did hope for the darkspawn to take the tower.
- only he had access to it before the battle
- he made the strategy of the whole fight and decided that lighting the beacon is so important
- failing to light the beacon would provide him a good excuse why he didn't take part in the battle
- he sent his own men to guard it, and was displeased that grey wardens take over
- he was displeased to see the beacon light (every time I got to that part he did saw it)
- he left after the beacon was lit without seeing how the battle is standing, because he had no more excuse to leave otherwise, thus he could just as well leave if he doesn't attack.
- the darkspawn didn't leave the tower, they didn't attack the army in its back opening a second front, they kept to the tower and defended that.
- it was not an important location whatsoever, but for the beacon

Adding all that together is just too... odd and peculiar.

Modifié par Lianaar, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:05 .

[Bibdy]

Its just a way to cause frustration in the story. A plot device, nothing more. There's really no reason why Loghain would sit there until the beacon is lit, THEN walk away, except to make the player get all the way up that tower, kill a bunch of darkspawn to get there, light the beacon and then get a cutscene showing how he betrays everybody.

If you saw the cutscene of Loghain sounding the retreat (minus the beacon lighting) the moment you entered the tower, instead, you'd probably see if you could find a way to go back out and help/warn the King/Duncan what Loghain did (even though your character has no idea what happened). That would kind of break the flow and give you little reason to want to go up and light the beacon anyway.

So things just kind of happen in that way to keep the player's motivation going and to expose Loghain at the correct dramatic moment.

Modifié par Bibdy, 01 décembre 2009 - 09:13 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

It is entirely possible that Loghain intentionally released the Darkspawn in the tower. That would explain why he didn't want anyone to get in before the battle and why he didn't want you to go to the tower.

[Mnemnosyne]

Not only possible but likely, in my opinion at least. All the signs seem to point to it. Only he and his specially chosen men had access to the tower. The other men that had been in the tower never saw any lower chambers. You never saw any lower chambers when you went in - just a giant hole dug in the ground. Loghain's expression was of shock and surprise when he saw the beacon was actually lit.

Whatever his plan and intentions, he never expected the beacon to be lit, and the only way he could expect the beacon to not be lit is if he knew the tower would be overrun.

[Bibdy]

I think people are trying too hard to nail Loghain as a total bastard and thus easier to hate. The dude just saw Cailin as a foolhardy, young prince, ready to ride into battle with the Grey Wardens without reinforcements as well as a King who allowed the Orlesians, which he spent years fighting against, to march across their borders to help (although he would have seen it as more of an invasion).

He betrayed Duncan and the Grey Wardens to save enough forces to form a real counter-offensive with the other forces of Ferelden, laid blame on the Grey Wardens, to reduce the amount of backlash and suspicion towards himself and I believe would have happily allowed Anora to rule if it weren't for Howe being an opportunistic bastard and taking advantage of the situation.

I find it hard to believe such a character would directly manipulate the situation in such a manner to make things that much worse for everybody, and especially his beloved Ferelden, on purpose by allowing Darkspawn into the tower. He simply did what he thought was the right thing to do. Leave the field of battle with as many men as he could, regroup and tell the Orlesians to go to hell, for Ferelden will solve the problem alone. He didn't have Cailin's blind devotion and faith in the Grey Wardens. To him they were just another small group of men ready to drag the King and his armies against an overwhelming enemy force, all for the sake of a 'glorious battle like them thar good ol' days'.

Obviously he was wrong, but 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'.

Modifié par Bibdy, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:41 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Oh no no. I don't think of Loghain as a total bastard at all. I do fully believe he planned the tower to be overrun, but I can understand his reasoning and even, from his point of view, agree with it to some degree.

What he did was what he saw as necessary, and if his plan had gone the way he intended and Cailan had listened to him, he probably would have defeated the darkspawn pretty quickly - temporarily, at least, since it was, after all, a true Blight and not merely a large darkspawn uprising that he thought it was. But that's something even Cailan himself, with all his faith in the Wardens was doubting - it's hard to fault Loghain for not believing the word of the Wardens with zero evidence.

[lv12medic]

wonko33 wrote...

There is a bug on that quest, because when you light the beacon, Loghain never sees it and leaves. I reloaded and tried over and over to do it but he never sees it. It's a bad bug because then the King and Duncan die.

Loghains quest failed to trigger huh? 

Though, I don't know if I really view him as a bad guy... Its just he is the one that came up with the whole strategy, where he would attack the rear of the horde once the beacon was lit but he decided to withdraw.  Unless he could see that the battle was lost by the time the beacon was lit and made a decision then and there to withdraw rather than risk losing his half of the force as well.  Now considering the battle was at night, I don't know how well the Fereldan army can maintain that kind of battlefield awarness so who knows.  I do like how Dragon Age keeps you guessing as to why people do things in the story.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Imagine the scenario if the beacon hasn't been lit. The excuse could've, much more plausible, been that he never got the signal - thus never could help the king until it was far too late. The entire sh!tstorm surrounding the retreat at Ostagar, the betrayal of the King and the Grey Wardens could've been avoided. Loghain engineering such a thing, wheter you think he's a total bastard or not, makes absolute sense.

There would've been absolutely zero opposition against Loghain (for better or worse) had that beacon never been lit. Not even we, the ones that came up there to light the beacon - say that we would've failed lighting the beacon but still survived; We could easily subscribe to Loghain's story that "the beacon was never lit, I couldn't attack!".

Loghain has at least one red quest in his journal.

[Varenus Luckmann]

lv12medic wrote...

wonko33 wrote...

There is a bug on that quest, because when you light the beacon, Loghain never sees it and leaves. I reloaded and tried over and over to do it but he never sees it. It's a bad bug because then the King and Duncan die.

Loghains quest failed to trigger huh? 

Though, I don't know if I really view him as a bad guy... Its just he is the one that came up with the whole strategy, where he would attack the rear of the horde once the beacon was lit but he decided to withdraw.  Unless he could see that the battle was lost by the time the beacon was lit and made a decision then and there to withdraw rather than risk losing his half of the force as well.  Now considering the battle was at night, I don't know how well the Fereldan army can maintain that kind of battlefield awarness so who knows.  I do like how Dragon Age keeps you guessing as to why people do things in the story.

I don't think that Loghain saw the battle at all. If he did, there wouldn't have been a reasoning behind the beacon to begin with. The only reason you need beacons are if you're far away or behind obstacles, which makes perfect sense, seeing how he was the reinforcements in waiting.

The king's forces signaled the tower, that signaled Loghain. He must've been under heavy cover or a high ridge - otherwise why not just signal Loghain directly?

[JamesX]

The signal is when to charge. It is to coordinate the actions of two forces. It doesn't mean Loghain isn't in observation of the battle. His charge has to be at a key moment to catch the Dark Spawns in a pincer. If he charge too soon they won't catch as many in the trap. Too late the holding force takes too much casualties. That is why they need a signal to coordinate.

[Varenus Luckmann]

JamesX wrote...

The signal is when to charge. It is to coordinate the actions of two forces. It doesn't mean Loghain isn't in observation of the battle. His charge has to be at a key moment to catch the Dark Spawns in a pincer. If he charge too soon they won't catch as many in the trap. Too late the holding force takes too much casualties. That is why they need a signal to coordinate.

Yes, but you're missing my point.

The king sends a signal to the tower. The tower sends a signal to Loghain.

If Loghain was in view of the battle, why would you not send a signal directly to Loghain?

English is a wonderful language. Mine is better, but I've managed to learn both.

[Vormaerin]

I strongly suspect that Loghain's original plan was for he and Cailan to be out of the way while the wardens fought. The guards at the Tower would never light the signal or would only do so when its too late to save the Wardens. Then Cailan and Loghain could go off and deal with the Orlesian threat.



However, the Wardens being assigned to the Tower and Cailan insisting on fighting on the front lines meant that plan was doomed. He changed it on the fly to "Cailan dies and I march away when the signal comes."



The darkspawn being there is a big coincidence, though. There's zero evidence that Loghain was associating with Darkspawn anywhere in the game and he flips to your side readily enough once force him to realize the Orlesians aren't an immediate threat and you do know what you are talking about. I'd have to assume that the darkspawn commanders figured the place was a good watch tower or signalling space and took it for that reason. Or it was an enormous coincidence that their tunnels happend to arrive there

[Varenus Luckmann]

Vormaerin wrote...

[...]

The darkspawn being there is a big coincidence, though. There's zero evidence that Loghain was associating with Darkspawn anywhere in the game and he flips to your side readily enough once force him to realize the Orlesians aren't an immediate threat and you do know what you are talking about. I'd have to assume that the darkspawn commanders figured the place was a good watch tower or signalling space and took it for that reason. Or it was an enormous coincidence that their tunnels happend to arrive there

I don't think anyone was suggesting that Loghain was associating with Darkspawn anywhere. What I think he could've done was to intentionally release the darkspawn, or create a situation that resulted in the release of darkspawn, into the tower - in an effort to make sure that the beacon wasn't lit.

But yes, his initial plans were far, far from what happened. First off, I don't think he wanted to be there to begin with. Second, we have the kings insistance to be on the frontlines.

If he could've, there is no doubt in my mind that he would've kept the king out of the battle and retreated with him.

[Dervishing Dude]

I think theres a very good chance that Loghain did indeed plan to screw the battle over from the beginning. Just watch the scene when you light the beacon again. His "lieutenant" starts to argue with his order to retreat. It's rather obvious that she was ready to go join the battle and is really surprised when Loghain breaks from the plan.

[Mnemnosyne]

Not a big coincidence. If you have high cunning, you even get a dialogue option to that effect, when Alistair talks to you on the second floor. You get to say, "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they knew the plan." Or something rather similar to that.

The darkspawn are clearly intelligent opponents, but certainly not master strategists. It seems unlikely that it would occur to them to attack the tower unless they were intentionally led there by some means or another.

That in no way means Loghain was working with the darkspawn in any way - simply that he used them in an attempt to achieve his goal of having the beacon never be lit, in order to eliminate the Grey Wardens. His intention may have been as simple as getting rid of the Wardens and having them lose spectacularly, so that Cailan would listen to him and no longer be so "fascinated" by their legends.

[Vormaerin]

Oh, he definitely intended for the Gray Wardens to be annihilated. He didn't trust their smarmy Orlesian ways or the effect of their fanciful tales on Cailan. But I think his original plan was to delay long enough for the wardens to get crushed and then save the day. I don't think the death of Cailan was decided until the battle planning session the night before.

[Vormaerin]

Koyasha wrote...

Not a big coincidence. If you have high cunning, you even get a dialogue option to that effect, when Alistair talks to you on the second floor. You get to say, "Why attack the tower at all? Unless they knew the plan."

Except that's really incredibly stupid for him to do  Better to just have someone trustworthy up there to not light the beacon until its too late to save the Wardens..   It also requires that he somehow have the means to communicate to the darkspawn that the tower is important to the plan.    Either that or he has to have some ultra clever means of luring enough Darkspawn to take the tower at just the right time, without bringing enough that they can run rampant through the camp or flank the army from behind as he goes to save it....

[Sabin Stargem]

Darkspawn are well known for traveling underground, and from what I head, Ostagar was constructed by dwarves. It wouldn't take much thinking to figure out how to draw the Darkspawn into the tower - just open up a tunnel into the Deep Roads, and staff it with a string of patrols that lead directly into the tower. The only problem is timing the first and fateful encounter with the Darkspawn so that the tower is taken at the appropriate time.



Loghain probably had a "trusted" rogue tasked with eliminating a troublesome rival by tricking that rival into an infested tunnel. Kind of what happened with David and Uriah, but less woman and more politics. This way, the rogue isn't as likely to figure out the truth of what happened, if Loghain didn't eliminate the rogue afterwards. (Pure speculation, of course.)

[Mnemnosyne]

Not to mention that without the darkspawn taking the tower, how would he have explained the signal never having been lit?

Let's assume for a moment (and this is just a guess, but it's a reasonable one given the plan and the evidence) that his plan had gone off as he wanted.

Cailan would have been with him, instead of on the front lines. The Grey Wardens would have been on the front lines, with more of the army backing them up.

The battle begins, he waits and waits and after he's pretty sure the wardens are all dead, he grows concerned that the signal hasn't been sent, sends out a couple scouts, who report on the situation.

The tower was taken, but the battle's still going on, and they can still win it, so he and his forces, along with Cailan, enter the battle at that point. Most likely he even has a plan in mind to send an appropriate force to seal off the tower and make sure the darkspawn can't pour out of it.

There's enough of the army left to complete the plan, and despite the losses, they win the battle and drive off the darkspawn, but it was Loghain that did it, not the Grey Wardens, who probably all died, or nearly all of them.

Cailan sees the Grey Wardens aren't a fantastical, invincible fighting force or something and is brought back to reality, and turns back to Loghain for his advice, losing the "fascination" with the Wardens.

But if the men at the tower simply fail to light the beacon, how would this be explained? They betrayed the army? Why? Cailan may be young, idealistic, and a bit naive, but he's not stupid. He would need a reason. That's why Loghain's plan had to involve the tower being taken, because otherwise there would be no way to explain the beacon not being lit when the signal is given.

[Nigawatts]

My theory is that before the battle even began and before the character even met him. Loghain was ambushed in the Korcari Wilds by a time traveling vampire. After a long and brutal conflict the vampire slew the teyrn, stole his appearance and lead the King to his doom.



I came to this conclusion after realizing that only a vampire would be so haughty as to wait for his own bull**** signal flare to betray his king and retreat from the battle.

[Lughsan35]

Are all of you blind. When that signal fire is lit the camera shows logain look from the fire to the RIVER of Torchlights flowing down into the king's position...and for the good of the kingdom he withdraws...



In his mind it was better to save his soldiers for later, than to save someone he viewed as a foolhardy king.



Remember the cutscene, "History won't remember how pretty your suicidal frontal charge looked"



Which is what going down into that valley was, based on the number of torches that you could see, assume for a second that there is one torch for ~ every 3- 5 darkspawn...NOW do you understand how totally outnumbered they were?

[JigPig]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Are all of you blind. When that signal fire is lit the camera shows logain look from the fire to the RIVER of Torchlights flowing down into the king's position...and for the good of the kingdom he withdraws...

In his mind it was better to save his soldiers for later, than to save someone he viewed as a foolhardy king.

Remember the cutscene, "History won't remember how pretty your suicidal frontal charge looked"

Which is what going down into that valley was, based on the number of torches that you could see, assume for a second that there is one torch for ~ every 3- 5 darkspawn...NOW do you understand how totally outnumbered they were?

Oh pfft. Those were likely the white mobs that died from one hit at the end-game. One warden could have killed them all by himself.

[izmirtheastarach]

The first time I arrived in camp and talked to Loghain, from that point on I knew he was going to desert the king. It basically writes itself.