40 réponses à ce sujet

[Lotion Soronarr]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Are all of you blind. When that signal fire is lit the camera shows logain look from the fire to the RIVER of Torchlights flowing down into the king's position...and for the good of the kingdom he withdraws...

Taht river of torchlights was his own army. He had enough forces for the battle and a excellent battle plan. Talk to some of hte officers in the camp and you'll see they're confident in a victory.

[Argia]

Bibdy wrote...

I think people are trying too hard to nail Loghain as a total bastard and thus easier to hate. The dude just saw Cailin as a foolhardy, young prince, ready to ride into battle with the Grey Wardens without reinforcements as well as a King who allowed the Orlesians, which he spent years fighting against, to march across their borders to help (although he would have seen it as more of an invasion).

He betrayed Duncan and the Grey Wardens to save enough forces to form a real counter-offensive with the other forces of Ferelden, laid blame on the Grey Wardens, to reduce the amount of backlash and suspicion towards himself and I believe would have happily allowed Anora to rule if it weren't for Howe being an opportunistic bastard and taking advantage of the situation.

I find it hard to believe such a character would directly manipulate the situation in such a manner to make things that much worse for everybody, and especially his beloved Ferelden, on purpose by allowing Darkspawn into the tower. He simply did what he thought was the right thing to do. Leave the field of battle with as many men as he could, regroup and tell the Orlesians to go to hell, for Ferelden will solve the problem alone. He didn't have Cailin's blind devotion and faith in the Grey Wardens. To him they were just another small group of men ready to drag the King and his armies against an overwhelming enemy force, all for the sake of a 'glorious battle like them thar good ol' days'.

Obviously he was wrong, but 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'.

From the first time I played through to last, I've always felt i was missing some evidence agaist logain from the tower. I mean how would the darkspawn know it was so important to post an ogre on the top of the tower if they didn't have inside information about its importance?  If they took the time to tunnel in, why not swarm out of the tower, behind the king, or behind logains men for that matter? And timing it just as the beacon needed to be lit... sorry but they had to know something...

I came to this post because i thought i must have missed an item that would help me at the landsmeet latter--some damning evidence that logain actually conspired with the darkspawn...  but i guess its not here.  ah well...  last time through i kept logain and pissed off AListar, specifically because i didn't have that evidence...
still at the end (BIG SPOILER ! BIG SPOILER ! AVERT THINE EYES!)  When Logain kind of knew what Morigain and I hath wrought.... well it cetainly reinforced his insider dealings with the darkspawn...

Game on!

[ReubenLiew]

How would Loghain conspire with the Darkspawn?

[Xandurpein]

Sigh... It's already been disproved by David Gaider in another thread. Loghain did NOT collaborate with the darkspawn. The ogre on the top means nothing, just that all games has big bosses on the last level, that is all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

http://social.biowar...dex/583297&lf=8

David Gaider wrote...
Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

End thread.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 17 janvier 2010 - 07:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Makes sense that he didn't collaborate. Darkspawn are not the ones to talk much.



Still, Davids confirmation that he wanted complete control over the signal sez much.

[Vicious]

Loghain wasn't in on it, but good lord does the game give you reason to think he did. I mean seriously, it all adds up too well. Surely someone realized this during writing and just let it slide? Ugh.

[Carodej]

I though about this a lot too, and while coincidence does happen...well, let's it really seems too convenient of an explanation. My current theory for the attack and timing of it is actually that Duncan leaked the information of the importance of the plan. Not consciously, but in his dreams. I am thinking maybe just as the Grey Wardens can hear the thoughts of the Archdemon in their dreams, maybe some darkspawn can listen in on the dreams of Grey Wardens. Especially Grey Wardens where the taint is becoming so strong in them that they know they will go to the Deep Roads soon. So perhaps the Archdemon (or the Architect) saw Duncan dream of the battle strategy, and because of that sent a force to the tower. (I know it's a pretty wild theory, but so far it's the only one I have besides coincidence.)

[SarEnyaDor]

oooh - I like that, it dovetails nicely with my pet theory that Duncan is doing a Bregan as we type....

[Varyen]

My 1st play through I thought he was in leagae with the darkspawn, lol . Part of me thought he was being controled by a demon or blood mage who might have been in leagae with the darkspawn til I figured out that the darkspawn act alone but that was half way through the game & after reading codexes & paying attention to the storyline.

[Varyen]

Argia wrote...

Bibdy wrote...

I think people are trying too hard to nail Loghain as a total bastard and thus easier to hate. The dude just saw Cailin as a foolhardy, young prince, ready to ride into battle with the Grey Wardens without reinforcements as well as a King who allowed the Orlesians, which he spent years fighting against, to march across their borders to help (although he would have seen it as more of an invasion).

He betrayed Duncan and the Grey Wardens to save enough forces to form a real counter-offensive with the other forces of Ferelden, laid blame on the Grey Wardens, to reduce the amount of backlash and suspicion towards himself and I believe would have happily allowed Anora to rule if it weren't for Howe being an opportunistic bastard and taking advantage of the situation.

I find it hard to believe such a character would directly manipulate the situation in such a manner to make things that much worse for everybody, and especially his beloved Ferelden, on purpose by allowing Darkspawn into the tower. He simply did what he thought was the right thing to do. Leave the field of battle with as many men as he could, regroup and tell the Orlesians to go to hell, for Ferelden will solve the problem alone. He didn't have Cailin's blind devotion and faith in the Grey Wardens. To him they were just another small group of men ready to drag the King and his armies against an overwhelming enemy force, all for the sake of a 'glorious battle like them thar good ol' days'.

Obviously he was wrong, but 'it seemed like a good idea at the time'.

From the first time I played through to last, I've always felt i was missing some evidence agaist logain from the tower. I mean how would the darkspawn know it was so important to post an ogre on the top of the tower if they didn't have inside information about its importance?  If they took the time to tunnel in, why not swarm out of the tower, behind the king, or behind logains men for that matter? And timing it just as the beacon needed to be lit... sorry but they had to know something...

I came to this post because i thought i must have missed an item that would help me at the landsmeet latter--some damning evidence that logain actually conspired with the darkspawn...  but i guess its not here.  ah well...  last time through i kept logain and pissed off AListar, specifically because i didn't have that evidence...
still at the end (BIG SPOILER ! BIG SPOILER ! AVERT THINE EYES!)  When Logain kind of knew what Morigain and I hath wrought.... well it cetainly reinforced his insider dealings with the darkspawn...

Game on!

concidering that awakenings has a talking darkspawn in it, maybe our hair brian idea isn't so far fetched. Guess we'll have to wait & see right?

[Rogue-13]

OK, yes, I have read the Defence of Loghain and understand the reasoning put forth, and some disclaimers:
1) I havn't completed the game with any character yet (I'm waiting for that blue moon, erm, RtO I mean) but I have completed all origin stories and the game up to the rescue of Anora
and 2) I havn't read the novels.

That being said, the story clearly has strong elements of the "plotting evil overlord" device

To elaborate:
1) Arl Howes killing of the Couslands and other acts.
2) The Revolt of the blood mages and the (attempted) destruction of the Circle of Mages.
3) The Poisoning of Arl Eamon, the "Quest for the Ashes" killing off many Knights, and the undead assaults on Redcliffe.
4) Bhelens killing of his family and the inabilty to secure a Dwarven king.
5) The Betrayal at Ostagar and the resulting loss of the Wardens, and loss of any chance for a friendly alliance with Orlais for support.

and you could probably add in the Dalish elves problem with the werewolves, but that pre-dates the events by too much for me to credit it, but I do not discount the werewolves being nudged into their ambush.

I feel that some power is subtly influencing all these acts, (all of them centered around greed and desire for power) and then setting the blight loose.  It would take a lot of fingers in many pies, but causing all this disruption - it is "divide and conquer" wondefully demonstrated, with the only set-back, a surviving Warden on a "Heroes Journey".

And then comes Awakening, I will be looking forward to see if it supports my dark forces at work theory.  And of course I'll be picking up the books at some point.

Modifié par Rogue-13, 18 janvier 2010 - 12:06 .

[Kevk4]

Can someone help me. I've got to the 4th floor but cannot kill the oge, it wipes me out

[Majere613]

Frankly, Ostagar wipes out any defense of Loghain. It's obvious that where he's stationed himself, he's completely out of sight of the King's forces- this is for tactical reasons, since an ambush doesn't work when the enemy can see you waiting to spring it. Loghain and his men are heavy infantry, they can't exactly hide in the bushes. You'll note in the cutscene that we can't hear the sounds of battle either.

Therefore, Loghain's claims that the King's forces were impossible to rescue by the time the beacon was lit are plainly false. He can't know the situation of the King's force, and he receives no report from any scout between seeing the beacon and ordering the retreat.

So why wait for the beacon? Simple. He wants the Wardens dead to a man (and possibly the King depending on your opinion of him, it's irrelevant at this juncture) So he waits for the signal to know for sure that the King's force is completely engaged- and thus, doomed- and then leaves them to their fate. Having only men loyal to him in the Tower simply means there are no witnesses outside his own control to contradict his claims- you can bet the commander of the Tower force had orders to eliminate the two Wardens sent to oversee the lighting of the beacon.

Loghain's a murdering git. Why exactly he does it is open to debate, but murdering git he is.



@Kevk4: If all else fails, try the Benny Hill strategy. Grab his aggro with someone and then have them run away as fast as they can whilst everyone else shoots the Ogre. If the Ogre changes target, have the new target immediately run away and start shooting with the old one. Not honorable, but tends to work

[Zemore]

Majere613 wrote...

Frankly, Ostagar wipes out any defense of Loghain. It's obvious that where he's stationed himself, he's completely out of sight of the King's forces- this is for tactical reasons, since an ambush doesn't work when the enemy can see you waiting to spring it. Loghain and his men are heavy infantry, they can't exactly hide in the bushes. You'll note in the cutscene that we can't hear the sounds of battle either.
Therefore, Loghain's claims that the King's forces were impossible to rescue by the time the beacon was lit are plainly false. He can't know the situation of the King's force, and he receives no report from any scout between seeing the beacon and ordering the retreat.
So why wait for the beacon? Simple. He wants the Wardens dead to a man (and possibly the King depending on your opinion of him, it's irrelevant at this juncture) So he waits for the signal to know for sure that the King's force is completely engaged- and thus, doomed- and then leaves them to their fate. Having only men loyal to him in the Tower simply means there are no witnesses outside his own control to contradict his claims- you can bet the commander of the Tower force had orders to eliminate the two Wardens sent to oversee the lighting of the beacon.
Loghain's a murdering git. Why exactly he does it is open to debate, but murdering git he is.

@Kevk4: If all else fails, try the Benny Hill strategy. Grab his aggro with someone and then have them run away as fast as they can whilst everyone else shoots the Ogre. If the Ogre changes target, have the new target immediately run away and start shooting with the old one. Not honorable, but tends to work

the benny hill strategy is similar to the scooby doo one run away in a comical fashion coming out of unexpected areas to a musical theme =) *whistles benny hill theme*
but i agree Loghain = turd sandwich

[MGeezer]

I simply fail to understand how anyone can view Loghain as both good and competant.



He had two responsibilities in the battle--defend the Tower of Ishar (those were still his men charged to defend it who miserably failed to do so), and set up a reasonable battle plan (he differs with the strategic plan, but it is nevertheless his tactical battle plan).



Both of these efforts are miserable failures. He totally fail to provide adequate forces to defend the Tower of Ishar--it is taken and only the Grey Wardens are, to his apparent surprise, able to win through. His battle plan is so awful that if enemy forces are larger than expected a significant portion of the army and the King will be lost.



So. everything he was responsible for fails to work--conclusion, he wanted it to fail, or he is incompetent. There is much in the game and back ground to suggest he is not incompetent.



I completely fail to understand the many who want to make him neither evil or incompetent. he either has no idea what he is doing and screws up everything, or he intends the result, he can not be both brilliant and good, as so many seem to want him to be.