463 réponses à ce sujet

[SimKoning]

Cognitive dissonance because you don't like the ending> conclude it was all a dream > look for things that confirm your presupposition> Combine with confirmation bias and lack of critical thinking skills = nonsense, also known as "indoctrination theory"

[Dreogan]

SimKoning wrote...

Cognitive dissonance because you don't like the ending> conclude it was all a dream > look for things that confirm your presupposition> Combine with confirmation bias and lack of critical thinking skills = nonsense, also known as "indoctrination theory"

I love you. Change "don't like the ending" to "had your suspension of disbelief torn to shreds" and you win the war.

Modifié par Dreogan, 26 mars 2012 - 05:47 .

[CroGamer002]

Blackmind1 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Yes, it's still a theory.

Theory that is proven wrong my Final Hours of Mass Effect 3.
Speculations sir, speculations.

Given the fact that absolutely anything could have been omitted from that 20 page app (Especially if they wanted it to be a secret until April), the app disproves nothing.

If anything, I could spin it as "They wanted us to speculate until PAX so they could catch us off guard". In that case, the app telling us to speculate would prove IT right.

...

What kind of insane breed of logic is that?

[Dreogan]

Mesina2 wrote...

Blackmind1 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Yes, it's still a theory.

Theory that is proven wrong my Final Hours of Mass Effect 3.
Speculations sir, speculations.

Given the fact that absolutely anything could have been omitted from that 20 page app (Especially if they wanted it to be a secret until April), the app disproves nothing.

If anything, I could spin it as "They wanted us to speculate until PAX so they could catch us off guard". In that case, the app telling us to speculate would prove IT right.

...

What kind of insane breed of logic is that?

Indeed. Unfair burden is one hell of a defensive tactic. I can't disprove invisible pink unicorns, either!

Modifié par Dreogan, 26 mars 2012 - 06:04 .

[Rocktel]

OP you need to look up what the words "proof" and "theory" mean.

[Kanner]

Bioware would have to be simultaineously smart enough to put something like that together, and stupid enough to actually do it.

That's why Indoc theory (and most other conspiracy theories) don't work.

If they were capable of a good ending, they'd have just made a good ending and reaped the never ending love of their fans, massive bonuses, and all the DLC money they can eat.

Right now, from some viewpoints (my own included) they're literally fighting for their survival as a brand. Especially after DA2 and SWTOR, they needed a solid, no nonsense hit. So why would they mess that up so badly just to entertain a bunch of overactive conspiracy fans?

Modifié par Kanner, 26 mars 2012 - 06:00 .

[DangerDavidson]

Kanner wrote...

Bioware would have to be simultaineously smart enough to put something like that together, and stupid enough to actually do it.

That's why Indoc theory (and most other conspiracy theories) don't work.

If they were capable of a good ending, they'd have just made a good ending and reaped the never ending love of their fans, massive bonuses, and all the DLC money they can eat.

Right now, from some viewpoints (my own included) they're literally fighting for their survival as a brand. Especially after DA2 and SWTOR, they needed a solid, no nonsense hit. So why would they mess that up so badly just to entertain a bunch of overactive conspiracy fans?

Honestly, I think that some event during development happened where they couldn't finish something or other and were forced with a decision on how to handle the ending. You have to remember that the game's "Gold" release, (the final build before first packaging) was done in ~october? If I remember the posts correctly? That means that anything that would have led to the current state of the game likely happened over the summer, if not before. You have to realize the time span here. During the summer, they released arrival/LSB, **** for ME2, that's how long ago that was. Entirely conceivable that this was a plan or a modified version thereof all along.

Modifié par DangerDavidson, 26 mars 2012 - 06:08 .

[Mavaras]

GJ DangerDavidson.

I started out skeptical of you and changed my mind after reading all of your responses. IT is at least as plausible as any other answer presented.

With Bioware's motivations for specific game elements and decisions at large, I don't think we can discredit anything in evaluating the ending! Without the knowledge of what Bioware intended, we cannot exclude IT. IT has coherent logic, and has been put up to tremendous scrutiny. I think it at least demands fair consideration. I don't think I can call Bioware's total failure without also knowing the same motives we would need to prove IT.

I also don't think we should call IT a conspiracy theory until Bioware credits/discredits it explicitly.

Modifié par Mavaras, 26 mars 2012 - 06:43 .

[Gaddmeister]

DangerDavidson wrote...

I do agree, that more informations should have been presented by bioware, maybe even in-game so that people with less reasoning skills could know what's going on. LIke maybe past the Breath Scene, "HEY, nice Job! Sorry that we couldn't finish the ending on time, but its coming! Stay tuned!!!"

Actually, no I don't, I liked the surprise of the revelation.

Come on, dude, now you're just being arrogant. And if you're wrong, then... well, yeah.

Sure, the IT would be an amazing twist, and I would gladly admit to have been fooled. However, if this theory is correct, I firmly believe that it should have been revealed at the end of the original game, not a couple of months afterwards. That would be:

1. Awful storytelling.
2. Incredibly bad PR for further Bioware titles.

[Monarchos915]

I really hope the IT is right and was planned...


but at this point i'm convinced it's not really a theory, but more of an interpretation at this point.

[SLana]

Hey, until BioWare will clearly say something like "People, this is NOT indoctrination, quit dreaming!" instead of something like "You get what you see and nothing more", I don't think we can either prove or disprove IT. Many people SEE indoctrination at this point, and IT imo has much less plotholes than endings as they are, but  that doesn't validate it though. So all we can really do is wait. I personally don't believe BioWare staff have less imagination than fans do but I avoid building hopes just in case if I'm wrong. If they will give us someting truly great in addition to what we have now - I'll be very happy, if not... well at least I won't be so disappointed again...

Modifié par SLana, 26 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[hakwea]

DangerDavidson wrote...
What do you think of the assertion that that entire spaceship/planet/grandfather sequence is a distraction? You know that the shepard breathing scene exists and that he is all mashed up in concrete after the destroy ending. I feel like that was the manifestation of his resistance, that he recovered, his allies held off harbinger, and now he's ready to do some damage, no?

A distraction for what, from what, and by whom though? He already would have been free from the indoctrination attempt or indoctrinated. Since those sequences come after the conduit choice. Why would the normandy and the whole citadel doing its thing be created by the reapers after he was actually indoctrinated?

The reapers wouldn't have been able to plant those visions in Shepards mind if the Indoctrination theory was true. Because he already would have refused them with Red, but they still happen. And the are similar to what would have happened if he was indoctrinated by picking Green or Blue.

You can't base a whole theory on what Bioware presents to us then just ignore the fact that stuff happens after the Theory that wouldn't be able to happen if it actually happened.

[Skyline45]

DangerDavidson wrote...

 Can we stop calling IT a theory? Its so blatantly obvious what is going on at this point. We need to bin the people saying:

    - I hate the ending it doesnt make sense
    - The ending is fine I like it they way it is

into the following category:

    - I didn't get that Shepard is being indoctrinated.

I normally do not care this much about people's opinions of video games, but I am seeing a LOT of posts of the like:

[/i] [/i] [/i] · Open[/list]@[/s]masseffect[/b] Unlike most people i loved the ending, don't plan on paying for an alternate if u make one as DLC. Not supposed to end happy.

[/i] [/i] [/i] · Open[/list]@[/s]masseffect[/b] It is so hard to be mad at your company. Please make this right. Your fans wanted the promised closure to the great ME series.

Don't mean to single those people out, just random snippets I pulled off twitter. My only issue with these types of mass responses is that they will force bioware to do something stupid in the long run like change the existing story. Obviously the ending DLC patch that is coming in April is already/mostly complete so it likely will do nothing to affect that. However, it is definitely possible/easy for them to add little snippets of dialogue or something that make the surprise more obvious. I feel like making it more obvious detracts from the entertainment value.

It's also quite strange to me that this staggering number of people doesn't have the ability to go do a little in-game/online exploring and see what its actually all about. That, or they are just ignoring it for...whatever reason >.>.

I feel like the word theory here is being used in the same way that Creationists use it to debate the reality of Evolution:

a proposed explanation whos status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation

where it really should be:

a coherent group of tested propositions, commonly regarded as correct, that can be used as principles of explenation and prediction for a class of phenomena.

The IT is not rampant speculation. It has a very concerete set of evidence behind it. I'm sure other theories have substantial evidence behind them as well..(probably...well...maybe........yeah I haven't really seen any so far ), but this one is fairly logically complete.

My point is: stop it, and wait.


PS. I see a lot of posts below about the "plot holes" in IT. Would one of you be willing to lay out what you think those plot holes actually are? As far as I can tell, there are none and it actually consolidates all of the plotholes in the current ending:

1. Harbinger/Reapers come to earth, start indoctrinating Shepard.
2. There may or may not be an indoctrination device on the normandy (James Vega and his "wtf humming" quotes)
3. Dreams of loser child hallucination are meant to break shepard's hope.
4. Harbinger blast shepard at Conduit 2.0 and while he is on the ground continues to try to break him.

An indoctrinated Shepard, the "hero of the galaxy" would be an excellent reaper weapon.

From another post: http://www.twitch.tv...one/b/312765460

I agree with you on the Indoctrination front, but you do know evolution is still just a theory. There is even a theory with strong evidence that combats it.... Its the theory that says evolution happens in one generation not thousands... Look up the DNA Phantom Effect... Don't claim something to be reality when reality is relative to the observer.....

Just in case you're one of those lazy people that like to talk before doing research xD

Modifié par Skyline45, 26 mars 2012 - 12:58 .

[hakwea]

DangerDavidson wrote...
Oh OH, riddle me this then:  What does EMS/AMS have to do with Shepard surviving an explosion? its completely plausible that it has a lot to do with distracting Harbinger while he recovers from indoc. But surviving the explosion? Seems like an arbitrary number in that case. Just another thing to think aboot.

A lot since Red only provides that ending if your EMS is high enough. You can't just ignore one face of the game, ems influencing if shepard's chest is shown to move at the end of red. While picking other facets to worship as what really happened. Either you take everything into account or nothing because it is all the same "story" being presented.