463 réponses à ce sujet

[DangerDavidson]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

No that's my answer to this entire thread NO. It was never a theory to begin with it's a poorly constructed Hypothesis a horrible cliche, and a freaking family guy joke. It's not real there's more holes in it than the real ending itself and I will gladly tear apart any speculation on it everything and I mean EVERYTHING void of maybe 2 scenes can be explained with logic. This isn't a theory at all I downgrade it to a hypothesis because that's what it is. I was cool with it all until this post.

The indoctrination hypothesis is a blight and you people who believe it are blights. You sir are a blight!

Actually, there are no plotholes in IT.

1. Harbinger/Reapers come to earth, start indoctrinating Shepard.
2. There may or may not be an indoctrination device on the normandy (James Vega and his "wtf humming" quotes)
3. Dreams of loser child hallucination are meant to break shepard's hope.
4. Harbinger blast shepard at Conduit 2.0 and while he is on the ground continues to try to break him.

An indoctrinated Shepard, the "hero of the galaxy" would be an excellent reaper weapon.

1) they came to earth no proof of indoctrination

2) NO! JUST No! I honestly have no idea what magic fairy dust paint that people are huffing to come up with this theory the only reaper tech ever introduced was IFF and we all saw what it did it was NOT in the new normandy nor was there a need for it it was solely to get through the omega relay with the collectors dead there was no need to keep it in the normandy this whole damn point is malarkey for both sides but sure as hell for this indoctrination bull. 

3) once again logical explination overly speculated reasoning. It could have been this but it was more likely stress and ptsd involved not reaper mind jacking. 

4) This is just 1 restated there's no proof there's no reasoning it's just that emergency induction port people keep grasping at. 

Ya know what I like my old ending over indoctrination I'll take space magic over it was all a dream anyday.

ALL HAIL SPACE MAGIC! 

You did not play the Arrival DLC did you. Where some reaper tech quickly indoctrinated the entire asteroid base and almost Shepard while he was recovering from being beat up! There are tons of reaper tech you have come into contact with. THE ENTIRE COLLECTOR BASE for one. That cool liquid sphere thing!!! That thing was amazing.

[EmEr77]

The issue with the Indoctrination Theory is that there is currently no proof within the story to validate this claim.

The issue with it not being Indoctrination, is that there is currently no proof within the story to validate this claim.


To quote Mr. Shamus Young:

• "And no, I’m not a believer in the “indoctrination theory“. I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don’t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it."

Link presented here:
http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=15395 


What Shamus Young is saying, is that in any good piece of writing, the answers are found in the story. If there is speculation, even after going back through the story itself, chances are, it's not there.

• "Never look outside of the text for an explanation. If it's not in the story, it's not in the story." - Dr. Katharine Haake.

What we have, is an ending riddled with plot-holes (whether or not the Indoc Theory is true) character inconsistencies, and of course, poor execution.

Modifié par EmEr77, 25 mars 2012 - 08:50 .

[DangerDavidson]

Baronesa wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

OP...

Is the indoctrination hypothesis falsifiable? can it fail? or is it airtight and cannot be disproved, according to you?

I think at this point, I can come up with a counter-argument for every single problem you would have with it.

The only retort I would accept is Bioware outright telling me I am wrong.

WOW this is  much like religion vs. atheism. The only proof of god I would accept is god himself telling me he exists! Oh life, you are TOO fun sometimes : ).

That is my problem.. if you cannot see a way to falsify it, then it simply does not work, sorry. It is a great idea, I actually like it, but I'm not behind it.

Russell's teapot. nuff said

Sorry how does that imply that it does not work? I definitely see a way to falsify it: Bioware telling me they are wrong. I do not see a way to falsify general relativity AT THE MOMENT. Yet, if the CERN team continued to find FTL neutrinos, I would start questioning it.

That is science. I am 100% on board with something that has overwhelming evidence. Until it doesnt.

Modifié par DangerDavidson, 25 mars 2012 - 08:49 .

[ImmovableMover]

As someone who finds indoctrination theory (or, if you're going to bring up the scientific use of Theory, The Indoctrination Hypothesis) very interesting, and would love it to be true, I think you're talking out of your ass if you think that, at this point, it is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Seriously, Right now it is little more than a compelling (in terms of entertainment, not evidence) conspiracy theory, it is actually a textbook example of a conspiracy theory; It follows exactly the same tropes and patterns that 9/11 conspiracies take, JFK assassination conspiracies take and Climate Change conspiracies take.

People don't want an undesirable, (frankly) Boring explanation, so they invent one where "THE POWERS THAT BE" have been able to secretly cook up some "NEFARIOUS PLAN" for money, or power or both. But don't worry, YOU have seen through their secrecy! If only other people could see!

"You believed their explanation?" They'll say "You're just a sheep! Don't you see? That's what they want you to think! They're not inept, fallible human beings, they haven't made a mistake, they're actually in complete control and they have been all along!"

"Haven't you SEEN that video on youtube?"

People have taken disparate facts and woven them into a narrative, often ignoring or dismissing things that don't fit (StarGazing scene has yet to be explained in any reasoned way through IT).

You know what Indoctrination Theory needs, but has yet to get any of? Real world evidence.

Not in game evidence, But **** out here in the real world, where the evidence would actually be worth a damn. But there isn't any! None. Practically everything in the games industry gets leaked, ME3's script got leaked, the Demo went up on youtube before it went to public beta, "From Ashes" was leaked, we even have an entire app from a journalist full of stuff about the development of ME3, Nothing about development is secret anymore, people suck at keeping them secrets.

But THIS thing, the biggest secret of them all, the one which would send ripples through the gaming world, THIS has exactly ZIP to its name OOG.

No leaks before hand, Not even leaks after people have "Outed" it. Nothing. Nada. Bupkis.

Indoc Theory is not assured, it's not even likely at this point, it just remains an interesting fact that imaginative people can come up with WILD things, compelling stories, when they'd rather not believe the official word.

[TripleLife]

The great thing about the indoctrination theory is you can always write off all plot holes or inconsistencies by saying, "IT WASN'T REAL, SHEPARD JUST IMAGINED IT."

Poor writing is more palatable to me just because it doesn't imply that Bioware thinks its fans would buy the REAL ending. That they think we're so desperate for more Mass Effect that we would put up with an incomplete story. Would you pay an extra $5 to see the last 10 minutes of a movie? An extra dollar for the last chapter of a book? I guess if you like being taken advantage of, but if the indoctrination theory is true, count me out. I don't need it. I'm not that desperate.

[Pepitobenito]

sorentoft wrote...

It's a theory because it has no proof.

Just mountains of evidence.  Like evolution; also a theory, but widely accepted by most rational people.

[blackangel209]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

OP...

Is the indoctrination hypothesis falsifiable? can it fail? or is it airtight and cannot be disproved, according to you?

I think at this point, I can come up with a counter-argument for every single problem you would have with it.

The only retort I would accept is Bioware outright telling me I am wrong.

WOW this is  much like religion vs. atheism. The only proof of god I would accept is god himself telling me he exists! Oh life, you are TOO fun sometimes : ).

About half-way through, it becomes rather relevant.

Modifié par blackangel209, 25 mars 2012 - 08:52 .

[viperabyss]

Is indoctrination theory still alive? I thought after everything Bioware has said, the possibility of indoctrination theory being true is even more remote than finding a huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

[Baronesa]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

Baronesa wrote...

OP...

Is the indoctrination hypothesis falsifiable? can it fail? or is it airtight and cannot be disproved, according to you?

I think at this point, I can come up with a counter-argument for every single problem you would have with it.

The only retort I would accept is Bioware outright telling me I am wrong.

WOW this is  much like religion vs. atheism. The only proof of god I would accept is god himself telling me he exists! Oh life, you are TOO fun sometimes : ).

That is my problem.. if you cannot see a way to falsify it, then it simply does not work, sorry. It is a great idea, I actually like it, but I'm not behind it.

Russell's teapot. nuff said

Sorry how does that imply that it does not work? I definitely see a way to falsify it: Bioware telling me they are wrong. I do not see a way to falsify general relativity. Yet, if the CERN team continued to find FTL neutrinos, I would start questioning it.

That is science. I am 100% on board with something that has overwhelming evidence. Until it doesnt.

There was a way to falsify Einstein's hypothesis... check what happened during those fancy eclipses and how they detected how light was cuved... if that didn't happened... then the theory would have been falsified... it didn't happened.

[DangerDavidson]

ImmovableMover wrote...

As someone who finds indoctrination theory (or, if you're going to bring up the scientific use of Theory, The Indoctrination Hypothesis) very interesting, and would love it to be true, I think you're talking out of your ass if you think that, at this point, it is true beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Seriously, Right now it is little more than a compelling (in terms of entertainment, not evidence) conspiracy theory, it is actually a textbook example of a conspiracy theory; It follows exactly the same tropes and patterns that 9/11 conspiracies take, JFK assassination conspiracies take and Climate Change conspiracies take.

People don't want an undesirable, (frankly) Boring explanation, so they invent one where "THE POWERS THAT BE" have been able to secretly cook up some "NEFARIOUS PLAN" for money, or power or both. But don't worry, YOU have seen through their secrecy! If only other people could see!

"You believed their explanation?" They'll say "You're just a sheep! Don't you see? That's what they want you to think! They're not inept, fallible human beings, they haven't made a mistake, they're actually in complete control and they have been all along!"

"Haven't you SEEN that video on youtube?"

People have taken disparate facts and woven them into a narrative, often ignoring or dismissing things that don't fit (StarGazing scene has yet to be explained in any reasoned way through IT).

You know what Indoctrination Theory needs, but has yet to get any of? Real world evidence.

Not in game evidence, But **** out here in the real world, where the evidence would actually be worth a damn. But there isn't any! None. Practically everything in the games industry gets leaked, ME3's script got leaked, the Demo went up on youtube before it went to public beta, "From Ashes" was leaked, we even have an entire app from a journalist full of stuff about the development of ME3, Nothing about development is secret anymore, people suck at keeping them secrets.

But THIS thing, the biggest secret of them all, the one which would send ripples through the gaming world, THIS has exactly ZIP to its name OOG.

No leaks before hand, Not even leaks after people have "Outed" it. Nothing. Nada. Bupkis.

Indoc Theory is not assured, it's not even likely at this point, it just remains an interesting fact that imaginative people can come up with WILD things, compelling stories, when they'd rather not believe the official word.

How many people knew that Darth Vader was Lukes father during the filming of star wars. Like 3. George lucas even kept it out of the script and put in that "I am your father" line in post-edit.

Believable plot twist is believable.

[aliengmr1]

You know OP, you are making it very hard for me to not think that the Indoc theorists are just bat**** crazy at this point. I have been very respectful of it, even though I disagree. But ignoring the evidence that proves it wasn't planned is getting crazy. Just because fans can make it work doesn't mean anything. Please, just give it a rest, it was proven false.

[DangerDavidson]

aliengmr1 wrote...

You know OP, you are making it very hard for me to not think that the Indoc theorists are just bat**** crazy at this point. I have been very respectful of it, even though I disagree. But ignoring the evidence that proves it wasn't planned is getting crazy. Just because fans can make it work doesn't mean anything. Please, just give it a rest, it was proven false.

Not sure why people are still saying that as it was actually never proven false. I have debated many of the posts in this article and no one has yet come up with something legitimate to disprove it.

[Cody211282]

viperabyss wrote...

Is indoctrination theory still alive? I thought after everything Bioware has said, the possibility of indoctrination theory being true is even more remote than finding a huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some people are just crazy, or grasping at straws.

[Baronesa]

Cody211282 wrote...

viperabyss wrote...

Is indoctrination theory still alive? I thought after everything Bioware has said, the possibility of indoctrination theory being true is even more remote than finding a huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

Some people are just crazy, or grasping at straws.

EMERGENCY INDUCTION PORTS!!!

[DangerDavidson]

I fail to see how these are straws at this point. Here are the facts:

1. There is NO body of evidence that CONCRETELY disproves IT through deductive reasoning.
2. IT fits the story.

[HairyMadDog1010]

Op I support the indoctrination theory, but the ending was such a kick in the balls that most people do not want  to get there hopes up and have a chance of them being dashed once more.

[BatmanPWNS]

Until Bioware blatantly say it, it's still just a theory.

[DangerDavidson]

HairyMadDog1010 wrote...

Op I support the indoctrination theory, but the ending was such a kick in the balls that most people do not want  to get there hopes up and have a chance of them being dashed once more.

I understand. And they can feel whatever they want to feel. This post is meant to promote an alternative (if highly likely >.>) idea so that people can relax, and keep thinking about it, and stop sending Bioware hate mail : )/contacting the FTC about a video game >.>

[ShepardTheHopeful]

DangerDavidson wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

No that's my answer to this entire thread NO. It was never a theory to begin with it's a poorly constructed Hypothesis a horrible cliche, and a freaking family guy joke. It's not real there's more holes in it than the real ending itself and I will gladly tear apart any speculation on it everything and I mean EVERYTHING void of maybe 2 scenes can be explained with logic. This isn't a theory at all I downgrade it to a hypothesis because that's what it is. I was cool with it all until this post.

The indoctrination hypothesis is a blight and you people who believe it are blights. You sir are a blight!

Actually, there are no plotholes in IT.

1. Harbinger/Reapers come to earth, start indoctrinating Shepard.
2. There may or may not be an indoctrination device on the normandy (James Vega and his "wtf humming" quotes)
3. Dreams of loser child hallucination are meant to break shepard's hope.
4. Harbinger blast shepard at Conduit 2.0 and while he is on the ground continues to try to break him.

An indoctrinated Shepard, the "hero of the galaxy" would be an excellent reaper weapon.

1) they came to earth no proof of indoctrination

2) NO! JUST No! I honestly have no idea what magic fairy dust paint that people are huffing to come up with this theory the only reaper tech ever introduced was IFF and we all saw what it did it was NOT in the new normandy nor was there a need for it it was solely to get through the omega relay with the collectors dead there was no need to keep it in the normandy this whole damn point is malarkey for both sides but sure as hell for this indoctrination bull. 

3) once again logical explination overly speculated reasoning. It could have been this but it was more likely stress and ptsd involved not reaper mind jacking. 

4) This is just 1 restated there's no proof there's no reasoning it's just that emergency induction port people keep grasping at. 

Ya know what I like my old ending over indoctrination I'll take space magic over it was all a dream anyday.

ALL HAIL SPACE MAGIC! 

You did not play the Arrival DLC did you. Where some reaper tech quickly indoctrinated the entire asteroid base and almost Shepard while he was recovering from being beat up! There are tons of reaper tech you have come into contact with. THE ENTIRE COLLECTOR BASE for one. That cool liquid sphere thing!!! That thing was amazing.

I have my own theories why none of these places indoctrinated shepard that make perfect sense to me. However I will give my opinion. Yes I did play Arrival got the achievement for surviving all 5 rounds on the hardest difficulty and I also know of the easter egg if you let the timer hit zero, as well as the fact that if you never actually do arrival it's considered in the story as someone else doing the whole event. I think it's listed as an alliance team. So that just proves that Arrival is irrelevant. The base wasn't quickly indoctrinated there were logs spanning weeks if not months about the dr changing her point of view from seeing the project as possibly wrong, to wrong, to the arrival of reapers being the next coming of Jesus. You'll have to be a bit more specific on the "Cool liquid sphere thing" and he wasnt recovering form being beat up he was sedated for 2 days straight. 

The idea that the doctor got indoctrinated quickly is also contradictory one because had she never been arrested she would've never needed Shepard and the Reapers would've just came in through the Alpha Relay. The indoctrination had to have been slow because if the Batarians or Shepard had found her fully indoctrinated she would've been useless. Yet there she was capable of hacking, shooting, etc. I still think that Shepard is actually immune to indoctrination and my theory is as reasonable as yours. No point in stating it though you won't believe me anyways as you're sold that this Hypothesis was Bioware's master plan.

[Baronesa]

I have seen how you answer to others, and that is precisely why I cannot support the indoc HYPOTHESIS. You can hand wave anything to keep it valid.

It should be a tentative idea that can be proven correct or false, yet instead of accepting possible flaws you simply rush in to make sure all those grievances are put nicely under the rug.

Also you all should provide a way to prove said ideas as false.


IF Bioware says it is the actual explanation, THEN and only THEN it would be a THEORY, until then it is an untested hypothesis that so far seems to be unfalsifiable... and that is... BAD.

[Megachaz]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

You're right. It's not a theory because it's been proven false.

Not even once has it been PROVEN false....

It's been proven false by the fact that the ME3: Final Hours app has shown that there was no indoctrination arc present.  If Bioware decides to retcon the ending and say it was indoctrination, that was not their original intent.

[The Smitchens]

Actually it would still be a theory. A theory is a series of principles that explains how something works so even if it becomes canon and factual it will still be theory by design.

For example.
How sound passes through gasses, solids, and liquids is factual in the way it happens, but the theory behind it explains how it all works to bring us the facts that we have.

So no. We can't stop calling it a theory provided it explains things. All we have the power to do is search out a better theory, but that will be a theory on its own.

Edit:  Also being true or false has no bearing on whether or not it qualifies for a theory.  True and false only infringe on a hypothesis.  In the case of a theory you merely have weaker and stronger theories.

Modifié par The Smitchens, 25 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[DangerDavidson]

Baronesa wrote...

I have seen how you answer to others, and that is precisely why I cannot support the indoc HYPOTHESIS. You can hand wave anything to keep it valid.

It should be a tentative idea that can be proven correct or false, yet instead of accepting possible flaws you simply rush in to make sure all those grievances are put nicely under the rug.

Also you all should provide a way to prove said ideas as false.


IF Bioware says it is the actual explanation, THEN and only THEN it would be a THEORY, until then it is an untested hypothesis that so far seems to be unfalsifiable... and that is... BAD.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. None of my replies are "Hand waving", they have been concrete examples of why something someone presented is likely wrong.

The cool liquid sphere thing was a side quest in ME2. You could have it in your room! It was found in a cavern of husks and **** and is LIKELY reaper tech but not necessarily.

[DangerDavidson]

Megachaz wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

You're right. It's not a theory because it's been proven false.

Not even once has it been PROVEN false....

It's been proven false by the fact that the ME3: Final Hours app has shown that there was no indoctrination arc present.  If Bioware decides to retcon the ending and say it was indoctrination, that was not their original intent.

There is nothing in there that concretely disproves this.... Can you point to some specific evidence? Of course no indoc arc is obviously present if its meant to be a huge plot twist. Its like GL releasing a behind the scenes of ESB WHILE the movie is in theatres and revealing the Darth Vader father thing.

[Caz Tirin]

EmEr77 wrote...

The issue with the Indoctrination Theory is that there is currently no proof within the story to validate this claim.

The issue with it not being Indoctrination, is that there is currently no proof within the story to validate this claim.


To quote Mr. Shamus Young:

• "And no, I’m not a believer in the “indoctrination theory“. I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don’t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it."

Link presented here:
http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=15395 


What Shamus Young is saying, is that in any good piece of writing, the answers are found in the story. If there is speculation, even after going back through the story itself, chances are, it's not there.

• "Never look outside of the text for an explanation. If it's not in the story, it's not in the story." - Dr. Katharine Haake.

What we have, is an ending riddled with plot-holes (whether or not the Indoc Theory is true) character inconsistencies, and of course, poor execution.

THANK YOU!  I have been trying to figure out how to say exactly that all this time.  A friend of mine keeps arguing for IT and saying that it's a masterfully subtle plot twist despite the 100+ hours of previous storytelling that IT complete deviates from.