463 réponses à ce sujet

[ImmovableMover]

How many people knew that Darth Vader was Lukes father during the filming of star wars. Like 3. George lucas even kept it out of the script and put in that "I am your father" line in post-edit.

Believable plot twist is believable.

Pretty sure I didn't say "Nobody has ever kept a secret in Media Ever", Pretty sure I pointed out how many ME3 leaks there have already been, how much public "Behind the Scenes" knowledge is available (and there's no hint of Indoc anywhere, it's even been shown to have been SCRAPPED from the plot) and the amount of people having to be involved in this stunt would have HAD to be greater than a couple of people. The writing team needed to have known, Bioware heads need to have known, EA needs to have given it the green light, the DLC would already need to be going through Certification by now if it was their plan all along (so the entire team of animators, voice actors, PR people, Marketing people, Microsoft people, the testers themselves)...There are a ridiculous amount of links in this chain, A considerable amount more than with Star Wars (also, In the star wars thing he only needed to change TWO WORDS of dialogue, from "Obi-wan is your father" to "I am your father", Hardly a difficult thing to pull off)

Also, Lucas didn't change that scene after the film was released.

Your response is as lacking as the Compelling Evidence for Indoc Theory being true. IT remains interesting and imaginative, but it's just not likely.

You are falling for the same intellectual traps that Truthers do. Deal with it, preferably by thinking rationally about it, rather than just wishing upon a star that Bioware are smarter and more brilliant than they've ever been. Rather than having just rushed the ending because they ran out of time.

When you hear HOOVES think "Horse" Not "Unicorn".

When you see Inept writing think "Inept writing" not "Clever mind trickery"

[HairyMadDog1010]

Megachaz wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

You're right. It's not a theory because it's been proven false.

Not even once has it been PROVEN false....

It's been proven false by the fact that the ME3: Final Hours app has shown that there was no indoctrination arc present.  If Bioware decides to retcon the ending and say it was indoctrination, that was not their original intent.

Was it not said that indoctrination was presant but was scraped because of  gameplay?

[DangerDavidson]

ImmovableMover wrote...

How many people knew that Darth Vader was Lukes father during the filming of star wars. Like 3. George lucas even kept it out of the script and put in that "I am your father" line in post-edit.

Believable plot twist is believable.

Pretty sure I didn't say "Nobody has ever kept a secret in Media Ever", Pretty sure I pointed out how many ME3 leaks there have already been, how much public "Behind the Scenes" knowledge is available (and there's no hint of Indoc anywhere, it's even been shown to have been SCRAPPED from the plot) and the amount of people having to be involved in this stunt would have HAD to be greater than a couple of people. The writing team needed to have known, Bioware heads need to have known, EA needs to have given it the green light, the DLC would already need to be going through Certification by now if it was their plan all along (so the entire team of animators, voice actors, PR people, Marketing people, Microsoft people, the testers themselves)...There are a ridiculous amount of links in this chain, A considerable amount more than with Star Wars (also, In the star wars thing he only needed to change TWO WORDS of dialogue, from "Obi-wan is your father" to "I am your father", Hardly a difficult thing to pull off)

Also, Lucas didn't change that scene after the film was released.

Your response is as lacking as the Compelling Evidence for Indoc Theory being true. IT remains interesting and imaginative, but it's just not likely.

You are falling for the same intellectual traps that Truthers do. Deal with it, preferably by thinking rationally about it, rather than just wishing upon a star that Bioware are smarter and more brilliant than they've ever been. Rather than having just rushed the ending because they ran out of time.

When you hear HOOVES think "Horse" Not "Unicorn".

When you see Inept writing think "Inept writing" not "Clever mind trickery"

It is entirely belieavable that the ending was not complete at the point of the first ME story leak (back in ,....2010 summer?), I have seen that text document of the script. I'm not sure what other "huge leaks" you are talking about.

[Eain]

Indoctrination Theory violates the hell out of Occam's Razor, so I'll pass.

[Cant Planet]

The stages of my interpretation of the ending:

1) That was the worst ending to anything, ever, in any media. IT is people grasping at emergency induction ports.
2) It's actually so bad... how can it be that bad? Am I missing something? Maybe I should pay more attention to IT.
3) Wow, IT actually puts the final scene in a context that makes some sense, and there do seem to be hints at it all along...
4) Okay, IT! WOO!
5) Wait, why would Shepard show no external signs of Indoctrination other than looking exhausted? And also go undetected by those who are sensitive to it?
6) Okay. Indoctrination is scary, nobody wants it to happen to them. Shepard is tired and vulnerable. Ashley/Kaidan directly referred to Shepard potentially being a Cerberus experiment with Reapifying people... And the last scene makes a lot more sense as a dream-form inner battle against living or dying on the battlefield than it does and a literal fight against Indoctrination...

Which leaves me where I am now:

- Potential Indoctrination of Shepard is a deliberate theme of the game, but it's not what is actually happening. It's a red herring.
- Shepard's unconscious fight to live in the final scene takes the symbolic form within his/her mind as a fight against Indoctrination, because of his/her own fears and self-doubt.
- The Destroy option is the only one that represents Shepard resisting death -- what would be the "White Light" moment in more traditional near-death symbolism.

So basically, Indoctrination is a theme within Shepard's dream-state, but not the actual truth of what's happened to him. And the original plan was probably to have him come out of it before the real final battle for Earth, but deadlines and the scheme to sell some obligatory DLC impelled them to slap together a half-baked ending instead of a real one, so that the dream-ending would look a little more like a real ending. (Which obviously failed, but whatever. Money makes people stupid sometimes.)

To me, this covers the massive suckitude of the current ending, the seemingly-intentional hints at Shepard's potential
Indoctrination, the plainly stated concerns of other crew about Shepard's weakened state, and the major plot holes associated with both the current ending as-is, and with the Indoctrination Theory as literal event.

So there.

/speculation

//edited a dozen times, to try to cope with the terrible list formatting

Modifié par Cant Planet, 25 mars 2012 - 09:26 .

[Megachaz]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

You're right. It's not a theory because it's been proven false.

Not even once has it been PROVEN false....

It's been proven false by the fact that the ME3: Final Hours app has shown that there was no indoctrination arc present.  If Bioware decides to retcon the ending and say it was indoctrination, that was not their original intent.

There is nothing in there that concretely disproves this.... Can you point to some specific evidence? Of course no indoc arc is obviously present if its meant to be a huge plot twist. Its like GL releasing a behind the scenes of ESB WHILE the movie is in theatres and revealing the Darth Vader father thing.

Well duh there's nothing in the app that says "BTW, Shepard isn't indoctrinated, in case you're wondering."  And, no it's nothing like your George Lucas example at all.

[DangerDavidson]

http://www.twitch.tv...one/b/312765460 from another post.

[Hendrik.III]

We'll know in a few weeks. Until then all we're doing here is trying to get our hopes up and keeping our fingers crossed that EA will allow BioWare to do something about this.

@OP:
No plotholes? Seriously, c'mon.

[viperabyss]

DangerDavidson wrote...

I fail to see how these are straws at this point. Here are the facts:

1. There is NO body of evidence that CONCRETELY disproves IT through deductive reasoning.
2. IT fits the story.

This is exactly the reasoning behind the creationism, isn't it? Because the evolution theory cannot conclusively disproves creationism theory, so creationism must be true.

Logic doesn't work like that. There are already numerous sources debunking majority of the points the indoctrination theory crowd brought up. I've personally involved in a lot of debates where I actually went out, and use in game footage / knowledge / codex to disproves the theory.

Also, indoctrination theory does NOT fit the story. Chief among which, is if the indoctrination theory is true, then we all just spent $60~90 for a game that has no ending. You'd think Bioware would release a game without an ending, rather than a game with a horrible ending? Furthermore, the ending Stargazer scene would make no sense for the indoctrination theory. If the entire ending happened, the Stargazer scene would make sense, although barely.

And let's not forget the info that was released via The Final Hours of Mass Effect 3, as well as Ray Muzyka's address to the ME3 gamers. I remember when the spoilers of The Final Hours were posted on here, a thermonuclear device was detonated on the forum. The lack of content after the Catalyst scene basically proved that nothing was planned beyond the ending.

I personally would love to believe in the indoctrination theory myself, but there are just too many evidence pointing otherwise.

[DangerDavidson]

Hendrik.III wrote...

We'll know in a few weeks. Until then all we're doing here is trying to get our hopes up and keeping our fingers crossed that EA will allow BioWare to do something about this.

@OP:
No plotholes? Seriously, c'mon.

Name some...I love how poeple keep saying there ARE plotholes from IT, but never actually present any....there are none.

[EmEr77]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Not sure why people are still saying that as it was actually never proven false. I have debated many of the posts in this article and no one has yet come up with something legitimate to disprove it.

In every instance of Reaper tech we've seen indoctrinate a mind, it does not send an individual into wild hallucinations. Instead, what it does, is subtly (and it's even in the Codex that Indoctrination takes a bit of time) take control of them through influence, and make an individual wish to work for the Reapers rather than against them. As in the case of the doctor in Arrival. Through the gradual indoctrination process it made her turn from wanting to destroy the Mass Relay, to figuring that maybe the Reapers weren't so bad after all, to downright fighting against Shepard to make sure of the Reaper's arrival. What happens to Shepard negates this entirely.

Firstly, Shepard is suddenly "overtaken" by the will of the Reaper's and has a rampant hallucination which is not supported as being indoctrination by any means in the game. In Mass Effect 1 even when Saren and Benezia were living INSIDE of one, indoctrination was still a slow and gradual process. In this hallucination Shepard is still willing to fight the Reapers, when in reality, if someone is indoctrinated, only when they are near death, or have a mind decently strong-willed enough can they MOMENTARILY break free from Reaper control; but as evidenced by Saren, the only way to truly overcome Reaper influence is bullet to the brain. Shepard however retains his "I will fight and kill all Reapers" motto. If you say this is "because the Reapers allowed this" that is purely speculation, with no solid evidence to actually support that claim.

It can also just as easily be argued that the dream child was merely Shepard's own conscience at odds with him for leaving Earth, and symbolic of the destruction of innocence, and the form of the Star Child was something that Shepard's mind could easily identify with--as with what happened when Shepard hooked into the matrix with Legion.


Sure the Reapers have invaded the galaxy, but in the case of Mass Effect 1, and The Arrival, Reaper tech needs to be within constant close or reasonable proximity for the indoctrination to take full effect, which never happens with Shepard, and therefore negates the idea the indoctrination is gradually happening to Shepard throughtout the game. There is the argument "maybe Reaper tech was snuck onto the ship!" to which I say, show me solid proof, and I'll believe that--but you will find none. Therefore it is merely unfounded speculation.


The Indoctrination Theory would be an interesting concept--if the writers actually intended it to be that way. As I quoted earlier from Shamus Young, if the writers meant for Shepard to actually be indoctrinated during the end of the game, we would know it. Why? Because that's what good writing does.

I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a viable option for possible DLC, because, as I said, it's actually a pretty neat idea--unfortunately, it's not what's in there right now. There really is no evidence within the story solid enough to support this claim--but there's isn't evidence enough in the story to not support it. If it seems like the Indoctrination Theory is actually viable, and not a theory at this point, is because the ending was so odd in comparison to the rest of the story that people will do anything to find an answer for it, and space magic, and hallucinations seem to be all that works right now. 

Modifié par EmEr77, 25 mars 2012 - 09:15 .

[demin8891]

DangerDavidson wrote...

Megachaz wrote...

You're right. It's not a theory because it's been proven false.

Not even once has it been PROVEN false....

Except for the time BioWare said "What you see is what you get, there is no hidden secret meaning."

[Taboo]

Eain wrote...

Indoctrination Theory violates the hell out of Occam's Razor, so I'll pass.

THANK YOU.

[Candidate 88766]

DangerDavidson wrote...
Of course no indoc arc is obviously present if its meant to be a huge plot twist. Its like GL releasing a behind the scenes of ESB WHILE the movie is in theatres and revealing the Darth Vader father thing.

You can't honestly believe that Bioware is still holding back some 'real' ending.

Bioware has suffered massive backlash from both the fans of the franchise and the media. Sales of ME3 are already falling significantly. People are retruning their copies.

And you believe that Bioware is not only trying to withstand this backlash, but is also being silent about some DLC that could potentially get them out of this mess, all for the sake of surprising the fans?

You honestly believe they'd put up with all of this just so they can essentially say "April Fool's! Here's your 'real' ending."?

I don't understand how anyone could actually believe this. Common sense alone would tell you that there is no reason whatsoever for Bioware to do this.

[Gaddmeister]

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Apophenia.

No need for speculation.

One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.

Oh wait. No.

I've seen a couple of these indoctrination theory videos. While very entertaining, the easiest explanation is probably the right one, i.e. bad and incoherent writing. So I'll stick with Eain.

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 25 mars 2012 - 09:13 .

[PlumPaul93]

This thread is one of the reasons why I hate the IT.

[zephyr2025]

We do realize we're talking about a made up story right?

[DangerDavidson]

viperabyss wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

I fail to see how these are straws at this point. Here are the facts:

1. There is NO body of evidence that CONCRETELY disproves IT through deductive reasoning.
2. IT fits the story.

This is exactly the reasoning behind the creationism, isn't it? Because the evolution theory cannot conclusively disproves creationism theory, so creationism must be true.

Lets focus on this  : ).

What i mean by (1) is that the ratio of evidence to IT and other theories is like 100000:1, Much like Evo vs Creationism:

evo:   hundreds of years of scientific evidence.
creationsim:  one poorly written book.

I am quite sure that through the axioms of deductive reasoning that Evolutionary theory can, in fact disprove creationism, just because that particular logical method relies on a body of quantifiable evidence. 

Most of the debate of creationism vs Evolution is dogmatic and theological in nature.

[ImmovableMover]

DangerDavidson wrote...

ImmovableMover wrote...

How many people knew that Darth Vader was Lukes father during the filming of star wars. Like 3. George lucas even kept it out of the script and put in that "I am your father" line in post-edit.

Believable plot twist is believable.

Pretty sure I didn't say "Nobody has ever kept a secret in Media Ever", Pretty sure I pointed out how many ME3 leaks there have already been, how much public "Behind the Scenes" knowledge is available (and there's no hint of Indoc anywhere, it's even been shown to have been SCRAPPED from the plot) and the amount of people having to be involved in this stunt would have HAD to be greater than a couple of people. The writing team needed to have known, Bioware heads need to have known, EA needs to have given it the green light, the DLC would already need to be going through Certification by now if it was their plan all along (so the entire team of animators, voice actors, PR people, Marketing people, Microsoft people, the testers themselves)...There are a ridiculous amount of links in this chain, A considerable amount more than with Star Wars (also, In the star wars thing he only needed to change TWO WORDS of dialogue, from "Obi-wan is your father" to "I am your father", Hardly a difficult thing to pull off)

Also, Lucas didn't change that scene after the film was released.

Your response is as lacking as the Compelling Evidence for Indoc Theory being true. IT remains interesting and imaginative, but it's just not likely.

You are falling for the same intellectual traps that Truthers do. Deal with it, preferably by thinking rationally about it, rather than just wishing upon a star that Bioware are smarter and more brilliant than they've ever been. Rather than having just rushed the ending because they ran out of time.

When you hear HOOVES think "Horse" Not "Unicorn".

When you see Inept writing think "Inept writing" not "Clever mind trickery"

It is entirely belieavable that the ending was not complete at the point of the first ME story leak (back in ,....2010 summer?), I have seen that text document of the script. I'm not sure what other "huge leaks" you are talking about.

I listed them, There have been leaks all over ME3, and throughout the entire games industry. No other industry has this level of problem with leaks.

You are an a-typical Conspiracy theorist. Your conspiracy is "Perfect", all problems brought are dismissed with the wave of the hand, Any defense made is pathetic at best.

I'm still ****ing waiting for you to explain the star gazing scene in context of IT, considering how up your ass you've been this entire thread about being able to answer every criticism perfectly, and how IT has zero plot holes, I'm...completely unsurprised you decided not to respond to that blatant challenge.

And It had better be better than "Shepard Dreamed it" because that is literally no better than simply saying "illuminati" or "Government did it". I expect you to say "He dreamed" it though, and rest assured I have a response.

[DangerDavidson]

ImmovableMover wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

ImmovableMover wrote...

How many people knew that Darth Vader was Lukes father during the filming of star wars. Like 3. George lucas even kept it out of the script and put in that "I am your father" line in post-edit.

Believable plot twist is believable.

Pretty sure I didn't say "Nobody has ever kept a secret in Media Ever", Pretty sure I pointed out how many ME3 leaks there have already been, how much public "Behind the Scenes" knowledge is available (and there's no hint of Indoc anywhere, it's even been shown to have been SCRAPPED from the plot) and the amount of people having to be involved in this stunt would have HAD to be greater than a couple of people. The writing team needed to have known, Bioware heads need to have known, EA needs to have given it the green light, the DLC would already need to be going through Certification by now if it was their plan all along (so the entire team of animators, voice actors, PR people, Marketing people, Microsoft people, the testers themselves)...There are a ridiculous amount of links in this chain, A considerable amount more than with Star Wars (also, In the star wars thing he only needed to change TWO WORDS of dialogue, from "Obi-wan is your father" to "I am your father", Hardly a difficult thing to pull off)

Also, Lucas didn't change that scene after the film was released.

Your response is as lacking as the Compelling Evidence for Indoc Theory being true. IT remains interesting and imaginative, but it's just not likely.

You are falling for the same intellectual traps that Truthers do. Deal with it, preferably by thinking rationally about it, rather than just wishing upon a star that Bioware are smarter and more brilliant than they've ever been. Rather than having just rushed the ending because they ran out of time.

When you hear HOOVES think "Horse" Not "Unicorn".

When you see Inept writing think "Inept writing" not "Clever mind trickery"

It is entirely belieavable that the ending was not complete at the point of the first ME story leak (back in ,....2010 summer?), I have seen that text document of the script. I'm not sure what other "huge leaks" you are talking about.

I listed them, There have been leaks all over ME3, and throughout the entire games industry. No other industry has this level of problem with leaks.

You are an a-typical Conspiracy theorist. Your conspiracy is "Perfect", all problems brought are dismissed with the wave of the hand, Any defense made is pathetic at best.

I'm still ****ing waiting for you to explain the star gazing scene in context of IT, considering how up your ass you've been this entire thread about being able to answer every criticism perfectly, and how IT has zero plot holes, I'm...completely unsurprised you decided not to respond to that blatant challenge.

And It had better be better than "Shepard Dreamed it" because that is literally no better than simply saying "illuminati" or "Government did it". I expect you to say "He dreamed" it though, and rest assured I have a response.

Yeah this is going to play into your trap, but I  am fully on board with shepard dreamed it/troll ending, because if you look at the backdrop, its  "Space Winter" or whatever, a STANDARD BACKGROUND FOUND ON GOOGLE IMAGES lol

Troll of the decade.

Modifié par DangerDavidson, 25 mars 2012 - 09:17 .

[Gaddmeister]

zephyr2025 wrote...

We do realize we're talking about a made up story right?

This is actually funny. Quite a few people (from both sides) tend to try and prove their point by referring to in-game logic and science.

[Joccaren]

Yes, we can stop calling it Theory.
It is the Indoctrination Hypothesis.
It is a bunch of random things in game that can add up to Indoctrination, but nothing Empirical to support it. No, we will not stop asking for post ending DLC, not until we get it. We don't stop asking, we don't get that DLC - business.

[DangerDavidson]

Joccaren wrote...

Yes, we can stop calling it Theory.
It is the Indoctrination Hypothesis.
It is a bunch of random things in game that can add up to Indoctrination, but nothing Empirical to support it. No, we will not stop asking for post ending DLC, not until we get it. We don't stop asking, we don't get that DLC - business.

but we're getting it already. All signs point to it. And I am not calling for an end to constructive fan feeback. Just mindless hating of something that most people likely do not understand.

Acceptable feedback:

- I think that IT went over too many people's heads and that you should have included the real ending to begin with, ( i agree)
- There is a bug with the shaders on <some level>. I notice a lot of clipping/aliasing

not acceptable:
- OMG YOUR STORY SUCKS GIVE US A NEW ENDING BECAUSE I DIDNT GET TO SEE MY FAKE SPACE ALIEN SEX FANTASY PLAY OUT TO WHERE WE ACTUALLY GOT MARRIED because I am trying to compensate my real life deficiencies with this fantasy.

[Sashimi_taco]

Bioware has confirmed that the IT theory was not their on purpose, it is just a way for fans to try to explain why the game ending is so bad. Hopefully bioware will pick it up to retcon those endings, but they probably wont because, art?

[CavScout]

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

It's a theory because it has no proof.

Harbinger death laser = dream trees + marauder shields?
Citadel architecture = cerberus + SB ship + citadel + collector base?
TIM suicide = Saren suicide?
5000 AMS + destroy = only possibility of survival?

Hallucination = Hallucination

QED

You don't seem to know what "proof" actually means....