463 réponses à ce sujet

[DangerDavidson]

Sashimi_taco wrote...

Bioware has confirmed that the IT theory was not their on purpose, it is just a way for fans to try to explain why the game ending is so bad. Hopefully bioware will pick it up to retcon those endings, but they probably wont because, art?

WHERE did they EXPLICITLY confirm this~!??!!??!?!?!?! POST A LINK FFS.  

I have not seen ANY confirmation to ANYTHING other than "we are adressing the issues". 

Stop relaying garbage.

[DangerDavidson]

CavScout wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

It's a theory because it has no proof.

Harbinger death laser = dream trees + marauder shields?
Citadel architecture = cerberus + SB ship + citadel + collector base?
TIM suicide = Saren suicide?
5000 AMS + destroy = only possibility of survival?

Hallucination = Hallucination

QED

You don't seem to know what "proof" actually means....

Oh god, sorry that I didnt lay out a specific set of axioms and  a rigorous proof by deduction/induction. Next time, I'll remember your comment and mark up a formal proof in LaTeX.

I will even define specific in game events as belonging to some logical sets, and then use axioms of set/group theory to back up my claims.

I live for your approval.

[Jaze55]

Hmm people are still getting trolled hard I see.

[ShepardTheHopeful]

Ya know what the difference between the plot twist in star wars and the plot twist in mass effect 3 is? One of those things actually happened while you were watching it. The other is an emergency induction port to fill in holes. Not to mention any self respecting writer wouldn't have done the indoctrination theory. No writer relies on devils proof unless absolutely needed. So what you're trying to tell me is either.

Mass Effect was in such need of a devils proof ending that the writers HAD to put it there.
Or Mass effect writers actually had to rely on devils proof to end their story.

Both ideas disgust me which is why from writers like bioware I expect far too much to allow the indoctrination ending to be an actual thing. That and the fact that every fact in the IT theory can be disproved as well as proven leaving us all at a standstill that cannot be changed until bioware gives us something...ANYTHING.

[Inxentas]

And thus, lots of speculations ensued. Sigh.

[Doxie99]

Everyone stop using the word "proof" fer chrissakes.

There is no "proof" one way or the other. There is (quite a lot) of evidence that the IT is true. There isn't much evidence against it. I'm assuming that the people who wrote three really great games didn't suddenly fall apart while telling the most important part. It just isn't logical.

The evidence points to IT theory.

[viperabyss]

DangerDavidson wrote...


Lets focus on this  : ).

What i mean by (1) is that the ratio of evidence to IT and other theories is like 100000:1, Much like Evo vs Creationism:

evo:   hundreds of years of scientific evidence.
creationsim:  one poorly written book.

I am quite sure that through the axioms of deductive reasoning that Evolutionary theory can, in fact disprove creationism, just because that particular logical method relies on a body of quantifiable evidence. 

Most of the debate of creationism vs Evolution is dogmatic and theological in nature.

Actually there are some heavy weights backing the creationism theory, along with a few biology and palentology doctorates. I cannot in good conscious to agree to the theory of creationism, but I'm simply pointing out the fact that not only a few books were written about creationism, people who are well versed in the field have thrown their support behind it.

But I digress.

The reason I brought this up is because it seems that your argument is primarily based on, "well, what happened at the ending cannot conclusively disprove the indoctrination theory, so the indoctrination theory must have some weight". The problem is, majority of the "proofs" indoctrination theorists throw out are really nothing more than speculation based on inaccurate facts.

For instance, one of the most prominent "proofs" of indoctrination was Shepard's eyes when he chose both synthetics and control ending, and how they are coincidentally similar to TIM's and Saren's eyes, who we know are both indoctrinated. The problem is, we've never seen Saren's eyes before he was indoctrinated, so therefore that wouldn't be a good comparison.

TIM on the other hand, we know for a fact that he was not indoctrinated in ME2. He was indoctrinated sometimes in ME3. However, his appearance has not changed at all from ME2 to ME3. Therefore, we can conclude that indoctrination does not result in changing one's eye colors. 

There are just too many evidence stacking up against the indoctrination theory, including Bioware's own press release and storyline flow chart. I understand why people want to grasp at straws (or emergency induction port) to make the ending make sense, but I simply don't think it was intentional in the first place. 

[aliengmr1]

DangerDavidson wrote...

aliengmr1 wrote...

You know OP, you are making it very hard for me to not think that the Indoc theorists are just bat**** crazy at this point. I have been very respectful of it, even though I disagree. But ignoring the evidence that proves it wasn't planned is getting crazy. Just because fans can make it work doesn't mean anything. Please, just give it a rest, it was proven false.

Not sure why people are still saying that as it was actually never proven false. I have debated many of the posts in this article and no one has yet come up with something legitimate to disprove it.

This is the point. I can argue the moon landing was fake till I'm blue in the face, but I would be ignoring the very basic principal oocam's razor. I would also be ignoring all supporting evidence and logic because I haven't seen it with my own eyes.

Did the devs say point blank that Indoc theory was false? No. But has anything thing the dev's said at the end of development been in support of IT? No. You are so blinded by IT, that even if Casey Hudson told you face to face it wasn't planned you still wouldn't believe it. You are seeing what you want to see and I admit to seeing it myself, until I was able to look past what wanted to see in favor of new evidence. Its called reasoning with logic.

The X-files has a great example of the greatest enemy to logic and reason IMO. What does Mulder's UFO poster say? "I want to believe". For many people logic and reason end right there. Add to that the human mind being notoriously fallible and it easy to see why a light in the sky must be an being from another world.

You can debate this all you want, but until you can look past what you want to be true, nothing I, or anyone else, says will make a bit of difference. I'm sorry. sometimes I wish IT were true but its not.

Modifié par aliengmr1, 25 mars 2012 - 09:34 .

[RacistRabbi]

Does this one have to drop this link like fresh beats up in here?



This one is the voice of the Enkindlers. This one cannot be wrong.

[NM_Che56]

People are sheep. Watch, they release a DLC that just blows ur mind and makes everything clear and these same people will say OMG best game ever

[EmEr77]

Doxie99 wrote...

Everyone stop using the word "proof" fer chrissakes.

There is no "proof" one way or the other. There is (quite a lot) of evidence that the IT is true. There isn't much evidence against it. I'm assuming that the people who wrote three really great games didn't suddenly fall apart while telling the most important part. It just isn't logical.

The evidence points to IT theory.

In every instance of Reaper tech we've seen indoctrinate a mind, it does not send an individual into wild hallucinations. Instead, what it does, is subtly (and it's even in the Codex that Indoctrination takes a bit of time) take control of them through influence, and make an individual wish to work for the Reapers rather than against them. As in the case of the doctor in Arrival. Through the gradual indoctrination process it made her turn from wanting to destroy the Mass Relay, to figuring that maybe the Reapers weren't so bad after all, to downright fighting against Shepard to make sure of the Reaper's arrival. What happens to Shepard negates this entirely. 

Firstly, Shepard is suddenly "overtaken" by the will of the Reaper's and has a rampant hallucination which is not supported as being indoctrination by any means in the game. In Mass Effect 1 even when Saren and Benezia were living INSIDE of one, indoctrination was still a slow and gradual process. In this hallucination Shepard is still willing to fight the Reapers, when in reality, if someone is indoctrinated, only when they are near death, or have a mind decently strong-willed enough can they MOMENTARILY break free from Reaper control; but as evidenced by Saren, the only way to truly overcome Reaper influence is bullet to the brain. Shepard however retains his "I will fight and kill all Reapers" motto. If you say this is "because the Reapers allowed this" that is purely speculation, with no solid evidence to actually support that claim.

It can also just as easily be argued that the dream child was merely Shepard's own conscience at odds with him for leaving Earth, and symbolic of the destruction of innocence, and the form of the Star Child was something that Shepard's mind could easily identify with--as with what happened when Shepard hooked into the matrix with Legion.


Sure the Reapers have invaded the galaxy, but in the case of Mass Effect 1, and The Arrival, Reaper tech needs to be within constant close or reasonable proximity for the indoctrination to take full effect, which never happens with Shepard, and therefore negates the idea the indoctrination is gradually happening to Shepard throughtout the game. There is the argument "maybe Reaper tech was snuck onto the ship!" to which I say, show me solid proof, and I'll believe that--but you will find none. Therefore it is merely unfounded speculation.


The Indoctrination Theory would be an interesting concept--if the writers actually intended it to be that way. As I quoted earlier from Shamus Young, if the writers meant for Shepard to actually be indoctrinated during the end of the game, we would know it. Why? Because that's what good writing does.

I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a viable option for possible DLC, because, as I said, it's actually a pretty neat idea--unfortunately, it's not what's in there right now. There really is no evidence within the story solid enough to support this claim--but there's isn't evidence enough in the story to not support it. If it seems like the Indoctrination Theory is actually viable, and not a theory at this point, is because the ending was so odd in comparison to the rest of the story that people will do anything to find an answer for it, and space magic, and hallucinations seem to be all that works right now. 

[ShepardTheHopeful]

That video isn't new, fresh, nor correct, it's just as much speculation as every theorist on every forum here. Damn Jellyfish! You're Enkindlers were jerks too! Only good thing you did was save the Drell!

[Quietness]

Sorry i believe in plot holes, bad writing and space magic ^^

Glad you believe in IT however i still think you are just grabbing at emergency induction ports.

[CavScout]

Doxie99 wrote...

Everyone stop using the word "proof" fer chrissakes.

There is no "proof" one way or the other. There is (quite a lot) of evidence that the IT is true. There isn't much evidence against it. I'm assuming that the people who wrote three really great games didn't suddenly fall apart while telling the most important part. It just isn't logical.

The evidence points to IT theory.

There is no evidence for IT being "true".

[ImmovableMover]

Yeah this is going to play into your trap, but I  am fully on board with shepard dreamed it/troll ending, because if you look at the backdrop, its  "Space Winter" or whatever, a STANDARD BACKGROUND FOUND ON GOOGLE IMAGES lol

Troll of the decade.

So basically the ultimate copout non-answer of "He dreamed it".

"He Dreamed it" was an explanation for the entire ending, but indoc theory guys don't just stop there, they explain why he's dreaming that specifically and why "dreaming it" is more likely than a literal interpretation.

So where's the detail for this scene? Where's the "Why is Shepard dreaming it?" explanation for the StarGazing scene? Where's the "Why it makes more sense that this is a dream and not a literal thing happening"?

But you don't have that, do you? Nope. You've just got "uhm...errr...yeah it was a dream too."

WHY would Shepard dream this? And I'd like to point out it actually makes LESS sense if he resists indoctrination.

WHY would shepard, having accepted/resisted indoctrination, having thought he'd saved the galaxy from the reapers, Having hallucinated a (kind of) happy ending for his crew...suddenly have his imagination jump forward an unknown (but obviously distant) number of years in the future, where Galactic civilisation is no more and two random people are telling stories about him? When People don't even know if there's life on other planets? When the Galaxy is in the middle of a dark age? Why would he suddenly imagine a future where everything he did for unifying the Galaxy was utterly pointless? 

This scene makes sense if the Ending is literal. It's still a bull**** ending, but it follows what we've seen before - The Mass Relays are destroyed and galactic civilisation is in ruins, it makes sense that a ****ty era in the Galactic community is about to begin. 

But in Indoc theory, the explanation for the ending scenes is that "Shepard is being shown hopeful images. Either because he's accepted indoctrination and they're facilitating the process, or because he's resisted it and that's what his mind is focusing on - Hope". But the Stargazing scene isn't hopeful at all, it is the very opposite.

If the Ending is a dream then there is currently no explanation why his imagination would do a complete 180. From "Hope for the future" to "Nope, the future is ruined" in a matter of minutes.

And

Not only does this scene make more sense to be taken literally, it makes NO sense when taken as a dream.

And the great thing is, is that there's nothing in this scene to go from for "Evidence" that it's meant to be taken as a dream. It's basically a still picture. So ALL you can present to me as a rebuttal is baseless speculation based on pre-existing beliefs. You would have to commit the same Fallacy that creationists do.

"Something comes up that my theory can't explain? Well my theory is correct so it's not actually evidence against!"

Modifié par ImmovableMover, 25 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[gmboy902]

Or maybe we could just accept that the ending doesn't make sense, not because Shepard is indoctrinated (in which case I would think the Reapers would make it make sense), but because BioWare wrote it poorly.

[RacistRabbi]

ShepardTheHopeful wrote...

That video isn't new, fresh, nor correct, it's just as much speculation as every theorist on every forum here. Damn Jellyfish! You're Enkindlers were jerks too! Only good thing you did was save the Drell!

This one does not appreciate your tone. This one knows that your are jealous of this ones swimming swagger and so you mock this one by calling us "Stupid Jellyfish!".

[Megachaz]

OP is incapable of reasoning with... let this thread die.

[Janus382]

Nah, I don't accept it as fact. I do believe it was planned and implemented at some point during the development process, but was ultimately thrown out before the game went gold. Then they left some of the material in there because it could still fit with what they wanted to do, and would save time/resources/budget.

There's nothing about the Indoc Theory that can disprove that... so until then, nope.

[RacistRabbi]

gmboy902 wrote...

Or maybe we could just accept that the ending doesn't make sense, not because Shepard is indoctrinated (in which case I would think the Reapers would make it make sense), but because BioWare wrote it poorly.

This one finds it highly unlikely that the ones at Bioware who have well written stories prior to the last 10 mins of the third Mass Effect game. For you to say such a thing is a bigger leap of faith than the indoctrination theory.

[DasGota]

I thought Ray's letter was pretty much the nail in the coffin for the Indoctrination Theory? (Hypothesis, wishful thinking, delusion, whatever you want to call it). I mean he pretty much states "we're sorry not everyone likes it, but look how much the reviewers did! Thanks for your feedback, stop yelling please." 

I didn't see anything in there that said "teehee, we know something you don't know!"

Not to mention this is terrible PR for Bioware. Why on earth would they let this outrage carry on for so long if they had something planned? It's hurting their sales, company, and reputation as a whole. No self-respecting CEO would let this drama drag out longer than it needs too if they had something pre-planned before releasing the game. 

Modifié par DasGota, 25 mars 2012 - 09:53 .

[Doxie99]

EmEr77 wrote...

Doxie99 wrote...

Everyone stop using the word "proof" fer chrissakes.

There is no "proof" one way or the other. There is (quite a lot) of evidence that the IT is true. There isn't much evidence against it. I'm assuming that the people who wrote three really great games didn't suddenly fall apart while telling the most important part. It just isn't logical.

The evidence points to IT theory.

In every instance of Reaper tech we've seen indoctrinate a mind, it does not send an individual into wild hallucinations. Instead, what it does, is subtly (and it's even in the Codex that Indoctrination takes a bit of time) take control of them through influence, and make an individual wish to work for the Reapers rather than against them. As in the case of the doctor in Arrival. Through the gradual indoctrination process it made her turn from wanting to destroy the Mass Relay, to figuring that maybe the Reapers weren't so bad after all, to downright fighting against Shepard to make sure of the Reaper's arrival. What happens to Shepard negates this entirely. 

Firstly, Shepard is suddenly "overtaken" by the will of the Reaper's and has a rampant hallucination which is not supported as being indoctrination by any means in the game. In Mass Effect 1 even when Saren and Benezia were living INSIDE of one, indoctrination was still a slow and gradual process. In this hallucination Shepard is still willing to fight the Reapers, when in reality, if someone is indoctrinated, only when they are near death, or have a mind decently strong-willed enough can they MOMENTARILY break free from Reaper control; but as evidenced by Saren, the only way to truly overcome Reaper influence is bullet to the brain. Shepard however retains his "I will fight and kill all Reapers" motto. If you say this is "because the Reapers allowed this" that is purely speculation, with no solid evidence to actually support that claim.

It can also just as easily be argued that the dream child was merely Shepard's own conscience at odds with him for leaving Earth, and symbolic of the destruction of innocence, and the form of the Star Child was something that Shepard's mind could easily identify with--as with what happened when Shepard hooked into the matrix with Legion.


Sure the Reapers have invaded the galaxy, but in the case of Mass Effect 1, and The Arrival, Reaper tech needs to be within constant close or reasonable proximity for the indoctrination to take full effect, which never happens with Shepard, and therefore negates the idea the indoctrination is gradually happening to Shepard throughtout the game. There is the argument "maybe Reaper tech was snuck onto the ship!" to which I say, show me solid proof, and I'll believe that--but you will find none. Therefore it is merely unfounded speculation.


[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">The Indoctrination Theory would be an interesting concept--if the writers actually intended it to be that way. As I quoted earlier from Shamus Young, if the writers meant for Shepard to actually be indoctrinated during the end of the game, ]we would know it[/color]. Why? Because that's what good writing does.

I'm not arguing it shouldn't be a viable option for possible DLC, because, as I said, it's actually a pretty neat idea--unfortunately, it's not what's in there right now. There really is no evidence within the story solid enough to support this claim--but there's isn't evidence enough in the story to not support it. If it seems like the Indoctrination Theory is actually viable, and not a theory at this point, is because the ending was so odd in comparison to the rest of the story that people will do anything to find an answer for it, and space magic, and hallucinations seem to be all that works right now. 

I think what people are saying is that there is an ongoing struggle for SHepards mind. It isn't that the laser hit him and BAM he's indoctrinated. Shepard being knocked unconcious in Arrival, all the Reaper tech he's been in contact with, the child etc point to a long and ongoing struggle which the Reapers haven't won yet. The last conversation with TIM and the Catalyst could just be the final all-out assault on his mind.

We dont really know what the indoctrination process was like for Saren and TIM. Maybe there were hallucinations? How could we know? Shepard is told that taking control of the Reapers will save his friends/the galaxy. Saren and TIM both believed something similar, and we KNOW they were indoctrinated.

[AxisEvolve]

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Apophenia.

No need for speculation.

One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.

Oh wait. No.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I hope the "I loved the ending because I believe it is indoctrination" crowd raises hell if it turns out to be false. Just saying... There are people passionately defending the ending because they believe it's a hallucination. But if it turns out to NOT be indoctrination, I sincerly hope those who believed will join their voice in the ending outrage. 

[Doxie99]

AxisEvolve wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Apophenia.

No need for speculation.

One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.

Oh wait. No.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I hope the "I loved the ending because I believe it is indoctrination" crowd raises hell if it turns out to be false. Just saying... There are people passionately defending the ending because they believe it's a hallucination. But if it turns out to NOT be indoctrination, I sincerly hope those who believed will join their voice in the ending outrage. 

I will for one. To me it just makes no sense that there people who obviously know how to tell a story suddenly forgot ALL of it when writing the most important part. Ironically I think Occam's Razor points to a conspiracy for once, and previously planned DLC to truely end the game. If that is not the case then Bioware will be staring down the business end of a hissy fit from THIS Talimancer.

[Janus382]

AxisEvolve wrote...

DangerDavidson wrote...

sorentoft wrote...

Apophenia.

No need for speculation.

One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.

Oh wait. No.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you. But I hope the "I loved the ending because I believe it is indoctrination" crowd raises hell if it turns out to be false. Just saying... There are people passionately defending the ending because they believe it's a hallucination. But if it turns out to NOT be indoctrination, I sincerly hope those who believed will join their voice in the ending outrage. 

They are also responsible for KOTOR2, DA2, and SWTOR... so, cuts both ways there.  Not to mention, we don't know if the ending was simply rushed due to leaks / time constraints.

And I'd say the die-hard believers will simply abandon the ME series, or ardently hold on and maintain it's still true... even in the face of incontrovertible evidence.  The rest of them will split 50/50 between "normal" ending outrage, and abandoning the series.......... like a lot of us will do