GBGriffin wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
The only absolute fact I am presenting is:
IT fits the plot very well and it is unlikely that BioWare went insane.
I like to think this discussion at least makes the run-of-the-mill "I HATE BIOWARE" people to second guess themselves.
How can you have the words "absolute" "fact" AND "unlikely" in the same statement?
They wen't ass-backwards in the ending development.DangerDavidson wrote...
Nostradamoose wrote...
Oh come on, quit grasping at straws. You guys are indoctrinating yourselves with this theory.
Occam's Razor :
Bioware made a really bad ending, not this indoctrination Bull****.
I could apply occams razor the other way.
Which is simpler, that a game company tried (and failed, depending on who you ask) to make a thought-provoking conclusion, or that they went ass-backwards into the story development over one of the most successful franchises in recent history.
Modifié par Nostradamoose, 25 mars 2012 - 11:35 .
MassEffected555 wrote...
4 hours later people still getting trolled hard. I guess it was a success.
5/10. To hyper in replies makes it seem like you've been doing lines this whole time.
Modifié par DangerDavidson, 25 mars 2012 - 11:40 .
DangerDavidson wrote...
sorentoft wrote...
Apophenia.
No need for speculation.
One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.
Oh wait. No.
N-Seven wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
sorentoft wrote...
Apophenia.
No need for speculation.
One of the most successful entertainment companies, responsible for KOTOR, BG, etc etc, suddenly acquiring the storytelling skills of a ten year old: highly likely.
Oh wait. No.
A successful entertainment company, would intentionally release an incomplete game, and in doing so:
1) Risk permanently damaging their relationship with their fanbase
2) Open themselves up to potential litigation
3) Invoke negative scrutiny from various media sources, and accusations of unethical business practices
4) Permanently damage their reputation within the industry
5) Raise the ire of shareholders with all of the above
6) Have to endure a PR debacle, which has insofar has included personal attacks, threats, chaos in the forums,and twitter bombing, all of which is still ongoing
Highly unlikely.
Various statements from founders, interviews with staff, writers, and 'insiders' have indicated the that the current ending is what it is. This is the ending. Poorly written and rushed, but yes...we have to take that at face value unless they say otherwise.
Unless of course, you are assuming that everyone is lying to us. That would imply that a coordinated plan of deception and subterfuge has been executed. And that efforts are being made to continue with the deception.
Also highly unlikely.
Everything that is offered as 'proof' of the Indoctrination Theory can be easily explained in easier ways. The unlimited ammo gun is simply there for atmosphere of the moment. Cinematic effect. Same with oily lines. The 'Earth-Like rubble' is simple stone or some other porous material, synthetic or natural. It is not a stretch to assume such materials exist in a large part of the Citadel's construction. The Star-Child is looks like the child from the dreams, simply because the writers thought it would be 'cool' to make that connection. It's easy enough to come to come up with these explanations with minimal 'stretching'.
There are numerous other reasons why IT can be refuted, that have been covered by many here. It's inconsistent with the storytelling style of the Mass Effect series, which has been consistently ham-fisted. (This is not a subtle story. If there was a 'inner struggle' going on, the game would pretty much tell you.) The current endings, though poor, are ham-fisted. It's inconsistent with how it portrays Indoctrination, which has been shown as a slow, unstoppable (only for short moments) process. It only exists in 1/16 endings. It requires Bioware to invalidate the endings of the players who have insufficent EMS. I could also add that there is no real reason to Indoctrinate Shepard, and that if the Reapers planned to all along, they certainly wouldn't be trying to kill him at every turn time and firing gigantic red artillery-lasers at his feet.
IT is fanfic. Fiction written by fans based on conjecture. If you want to believe it, as 'your own version', that is perfectly fine. Believing 'this is what Bioware intended, they wanted a PR mess and they are lying to us', is a tad delusional.
Modifié par liggy002, 25 mars 2012 - 11:43 .
Ok...DangerDavidson wrote...
Gaddmeister wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
Gaddmeister wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
Well, while there is no rigorous proof, I'd say its a near certainty at this point.
This argument is in the realm of "well, we can't really explain fluid dynamics", vs "we have solutions to ~100 sets of NS-equations but we can't prove existance and smoothness in the general case".
I don't think it's fair to compare fluid dynamics to writing. The evidence you're bringing up for your case is in-game evidence. Whether or not the IT is true this evidence of yours is made up by a person, a writer. The fundamental laws of nature don't apply to this evidence.
Either the writer did a good job and fooled the majority of the fans, or the writer messed up and wrote a story full of plot holes. What does this has to do with fluid dynamics? How can you call this near certainty?
All I meant by that analogy is:
Lets pretend that ME3 is an experiment to verify IT.
Is there overwhelming evidence for IT in ME3? Yes.
Therefore, I can state that it is highly likely that this is not just a THEORY IN THE COLLOQUIAL SENSE, (again why I hate the word) and likely a good Framework for what is going on. ME3 is a mystery, and I , as well as many other people have presented some decent facts that solve it.
As a scientist, I cringe at this next scentence: The only absolute confirmation that our scientific theories are laws would come from God/Jesus/Ra/Zeus etc.
Some famous physicist once said, (wheeler?) that the only subject that can absolutely prove anything is mathematics.
Yes, there is overwhelming evidence for it in ME3. However, ME3 is a story. It's made up. It's not science. It could just boil down to bad writing, simple as that. I understand that you find the IT the more likely explanation, I can accept that. But how can you call yourself a scientist and take the IT as truth without hesitation?
I don't take it to be the ABSOLUTE Truth, In fact. if you reference my earlier quote, nothing really is.
I do believe, based on the presented evidence, IT to be correct to a very high confidence interval, if you will, and therefore I plan to use it as a basis for everyday decisions! You should too : )
liggy002 wrote...
They already stated that they are not going to change the ending as it is. If they just leave the ending as is and attempt to explain and not use the indoctrination theory, that will be an even bigger disaster than if they had gone with the indoctrination theory. I love the fact that they possibly screwed with my head, no other game developer has had the balls to do that in the way Bioware did.
DangerDavidson wrote...
Eh, I think their only mistake is believing that more people would get it. Clearly they didn't.
Johcande XX wrote...
@Danger
I've read through a majority of the posts in this thread, and I have to say; what's up with all this arguing? Indoctrination has no DEFINITIVE proof for or against, with that being said your OP just seems like trolling to me.
I have seen you say that you are using deductive reasoning and looking for what would be the LOGICAL answers, and doing so led you to IT. The only counter I have is:
Is it logical to take a huge risk that provides zero reward? Bioware has the best sci-fi game franchise under their belt. Their fans are diehards and will buy everything; DLC, graphic novels, clothing, stuffed animals, . . . everything. In other words, they have our money; why risk the integrity of your product just as a massive punk'd on your customers. It makes no sense, and no CEO would greenlight that kinda stuff.
Other media works do have these kinds of twist endings, but they have them in order to garner public interest so as to reach more customers. ME's fanbase is pretty stable, it doesn't seem that a twist ending is going to get a lot more people to buy it who wouldn't otherwise.
Giguelingueling wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
Eh, I think their only mistake is believing that more people would get it. Clearly they didn't.
Your whole theory is base on the assumption that mass effect 3 is perfect. That the devs tought of absolutly everything and more importantly that they don't care about bad press and are ready to ship an incomplete game. Because if you go with the IT what do you have in the end ? Your Shepard almost dead, unconsious for god know how many time. You have no clue if the shield/sword/hammer fleet is still alive. The reaper are still destroying the galaxie. You have no idea what the crucible can do. In fact the only think that you're almost certain is that your squadmate are all dead.
Oh and they still haven't said anything about it.
Yup that sound more then legit.
Jacobcus wrote...
So wait....you think the Indoctrination theory is correct? It has already been dis-proven long ago if that is what you are going on about. Their is no Indoctrination theory, it is over with, he was not Indoctrinated that is the ending Bioware wanted, and intended, their is countless evidence to prove this. I honestly couldn't make out what you were trying to ramble about though due to your introduction and conclusion paragraph's conflicting.
GoBioWareGo wrote...
If it turns out to be indoctrination theory than that's the best ending ever. Not sure why they would release the ending separate, but if they do i really wouldn't care
Modifié par DangerDavidson, 25 mars 2012 - 11:50 .
They actually discredit it in "the Final hours of Mass effect"...DangerDavidson wrote...
Jacobcus wrote...
So wait....you think the Indoctrination theory is correct? It has already been dis-proven long ago if that is what you are going on about. Their is no Indoctrination theory, it is over with, he was not Indoctrinated that is the ending Bioware wanted, and intended, their is countless evidence to prove this. I honestly couldn't make out what you were trying to ramble about though due to your introduction and conclusion paragraph's conflicting.
It has never been disproven. Please stop that. Read this thread for more info. I had a post about what the game directors/creators said and it does not involve discrediting IT in any way shape or form.
DangerDavidson wrote...
Giguelingueling wrote...
DangerDavidson wrote...
Eh, I think their only mistake is believing that more people would get it. Clearly they didn't.
Your whole theory is base on the assumption that mass effect 3 is perfect. That the devs tought of absolutly everything and more importantly that they don't care about bad press and are ready to ship an incomplete game. Because if you go with the IT what do you have in the end ? Your Shepard almost dead, unconsious for god know how many time. You have no clue if the shield/sword/hammer fleet is still alive. The reaper are still destroying the galaxie. You have no idea what the crucible can do. In fact the only think that you're almost certain is that your squadmate are all dead.
Oh and they still haven't said anything about it.
Yup that sound more then legit.
I agree with your last sentence exactly! Sounds legit, IS legit : ).
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