I posted this elsewhere, but there's actually another panel at PAX that might be worth keeping an eye on besides the ME3 one:
Plot vs Play: The Duality of Modern Game Design
How do you tell a story to somebody who can control the way it’s told? How do you blend a game’s narrative with its mechanics without forcing prominence on one over the other? How do you seamlessly tie the two elements together? Does it even matter? Join BioShock creator Ken Levine and Mass Effect lead Casey Hudson alongside Joystiq’s Ben Gilbert and Kotaku’s Jason Schreier for a conversation about the never-ending war between narrative and gameplay—and how the two can finally make peace.
Panelists:
Ben Gilbert [Senior Reporter, Joystiq], Jason Schreier [Reporter, Kotaku], Ken Levine [Creative Director, Irrational Games], Casey Hudson [Game Director, Electronic Arts/BioWare label]
Arachnid Theatre Saturday 4/7 5:30PM - 6:30PM
If it turns out that BioWare ends up shutting down the discussion of the ending at the ME3 panel, I'd love to see some people show up to this one and get up to the mic. "So, Casey, on the subject of storyline vs. gameplay: why did you decide to remove all control from the player at the end of Mass Effect 3 and force them into your terrible storyline ending?"
Does anyone else feel sorry for Bioware's Pax conference?
Débuté par
Veggiesofmanycolors
, mars 25 2012 10:27
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#177
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:20
Kulthar Drax
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I DO feel bad for Bioware employees, especially those who poured their time and effort into making this game, yet had no real creative control over what was put in or how it was implemented. Graphic artists for instance, they did amazing work but they have no say over storyline or how their graphic art is implemented. They may create awesome cutscenes, but have no say on whether they're good/bad in regards to the context of the storyline they're used for. They just get told what to make.
Having said that though, given how Casey Hudson and Ray Muzyka treated their fans in their recent press releases, it is unsurprising how much vitriol is being thrown at them. We need to try and stay calm despite the feelings of anger, betrayal and frustration, difficult though this is. I can only hope they do have an ace up their sleeve and that this was planned all along and that they weren't just being douches in denial over their crappy ending all this time. It seems highly unlikely though
Having said that though, given how Casey Hudson and Ray Muzyka treated their fans in their recent press releases, it is unsurprising how much vitriol is being thrown at them. We need to try and stay calm despite the feelings of anger, betrayal and frustration, difficult though this is. I can only hope they do have an ace up their sleeve and that this was planned all along and that they weren't just being douches in denial over their crappy ending all this time. It seems highly unlikely though
#178
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:24
The_Crazy_Hand
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Zardoc wrote...
They brought this on themselves. So no, I don't feel particularly sorry for them.
This, though it isn't everyone's fault. Many within Bioware are on our side or at least sympathize, but can't tell us. It's just Casey, Mac, and Ray who don't care. We need to remember this, because the Bioware rank and file do not deserve our hate for what the top guys did and are continuing to do.
#179
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:26
bleachorange
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My thoughts on Ray's statement
Farb's thoughts on Casey's statement - I agree
Bioware Problem Solving Guide
I hope this proves illuminating.
Farb's thoughts on Casey's statement - I agree
Bioware Problem Solving Guide
I hope this proves illuminating.
Modifié par bleachorange, 26 mars 2012 - 05:26 .
#180
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:27
Wabajakka
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Is anyone at PAX allowed at these panels? Or is it press only?
If anyone is allowed in, then I feel pretty horrible for them.
If anyone is allowed in, then I feel pretty horrible for them.
#181
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:30
Ryoten
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I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
#182
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:38
Ahdia
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No I don't feel sorry for them at all.
Cause and effect. Their own actions have caused the problems. They made false statements about what we would get. ( and somehow seem shocked and indignant that we're complaining )
I don't feel sorry for companies that lie to me about what a product is when I buy it based on statements they've made.
Cause and effect. Their own actions have caused the problems. They made false statements about what we would get. ( and somehow seem shocked and indignant that we're complaining )
I don't feel sorry for companies that lie to me about what a product is when I buy it based on statements they've made.
#183
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:40
Ahdia
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Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
You have my support!
#184
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 05:52
Skullheart
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#185
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 06:46
Simocrates
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iVitriol wrote...
Ally in the face of a common goal, like making trolls cry.Mbednar wrote...
iVitriol wrote...
Lol dude. Your whining about so-called nerds w/ no confidence whining on forums.Zanza86 wrote...
As if nerds are going to do anything besides whinge on a forum. That would require them to go outside and have confidence.
PARADOX!
Virtual High Five!
Its like we're allies today LOL.
I was making an observation, you attempted to twist my comment to no avail and now you look like a fool. Nice work, no need to troll when you dig your own holes:lol:
#186
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:46
Miekkas
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I have always been a fan of BioWare's games. My first game from them was KOTOR, and I went on to get Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2, and Mass Effect 3. Although I enjoyed the majority of these games, the overall content of Dragon Age 2 and the endings in Mass Effect 3 have really shaken my loyalty to them as a player and customer. What served to alienate me from them moreso than the actual endings was their approach to the situation. Instead of sitting back for a period of time to observe that a lot of players/customers were angry about the endings while absorbing the points being made about the problems with the endings, they chose to:
1. Defend the ending using the 'artistic intergrity" shield seemingly instead of objectively examining the endings to see if the customer complaints had merit
2. Dismiss the players as a minority while citing critic reviews as though the opinions of the customers are irrelevant compared to that of the critics. They did this to try and deny the legitimate complaints of any credibility to try and dave face to the public eye and shareholders.
3. Make backhanded comments like asking for constructive feedback instead of what they called destructive feedback even though there are thousands of posts with constructive comments in the Feedback thread. They did this to try and make people look like a rabbling mob instead of people with legitimate complaints. Similar situation to the point above.
4. Seemingly ignore the majority of the feedback on the endings by claiming that all the players wanted was clarification and closure. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am given the impression that a lot of people want pretty much everything that happens after Anderson's death to be completely scrapped and retconned.
Bioware really needs to take a lesson from other industry giants who have been in a situation like this before like Todd Howard's team at Bethesda:
http://www.g4tv.com/...th-Todd-Howard/
1. Defend the ending using the 'artistic intergrity" shield seemingly instead of objectively examining the endings to see if the customer complaints had merit
2. Dismiss the players as a minority while citing critic reviews as though the opinions of the customers are irrelevant compared to that of the critics. They did this to try and deny the legitimate complaints of any credibility to try and dave face to the public eye and shareholders.
3. Make backhanded comments like asking for constructive feedback instead of what they called destructive feedback even though there are thousands of posts with constructive comments in the Feedback thread. They did this to try and make people look like a rabbling mob instead of people with legitimate complaints. Similar situation to the point above.
4. Seemingly ignore the majority of the feedback on the endings by claiming that all the players wanted was clarification and closure. Correct me if I am wrong, but I am given the impression that a lot of people want pretty much everything that happens after Anderson's death to be completely scrapped and retconned.
Bioware really needs to take a lesson from other industry giants who have been in a situation like this before like Todd Howard's team at Bethesda:
http://www.g4tv.com/...th-Todd-Howard/
Modifié par Miekkas, 26 mars 2012 - 07:50 .
#187
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:47
alx119
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They don't really need our "love and praise" if they failed to deliver a good game. Suck it up and man up, make sure you a. make a good game b. fix the current game.
#188
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 04:30
Fenrisfil
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Maybe we should do a betting pool on how long it takes them before they say the word "Movie" while trying to defend the ending.
#189
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:36
Cucobr
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Ahdia wrote...
Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
and my sword.
#190
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:38
GoblinSapper
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Cucobr wrote...
Ahdia wrote...
Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
and my sword.
Prepare to get pre-screened out/shouted down/ignored.
#192
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:40
lyssalu
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Cucobr wrote...
Ahdia wrote...
Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
and my sword.
and my ax
#194
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:48
TheMadBlimper
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It's hard to feel sorry for them when they haven't been listening to the fans in the slightest. We'll see what happens when they release their DLC in April/May.
#195
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:51
Whiskey Jay
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it is almost comical how bad they are with pr as a company. they talk to us and say the wrong things and just toss more wood in the fire. then they tell us one good thin and pour a small glass of water on the fire. then they say something else that basically pours a gallon of gas over the fire. epic pr fail.ZiegenkonigIII wrote...
Zardoc wrote...
They brought this on themselves. So no, I don't feel particularly sorry for them.
Yep, this.
Not to mention they are doing a god awful job at handling this. I can't feel sorry for them after this. If they fix the ending, then they are on the right track.
#196
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:54
Arokel
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lyssalu wrote...
Cucobr wrote...
Ahdia wrote...
Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
and my sword.
and my ax
and my Argus.
#197
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:56
lyssalu
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Arokel wrote...
lyssalu wrote...
Cucobr wrote...
Ahdia wrote...
Ryoten wrote...
I will be at PAX-EAST. All 3 days. For the #retake!
Nice!
and my sword.
and my ax
and my Argus.
wait i did that wrong i was supposed to say bow
DO OVER
DO OVER!!
#198
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 07:57
Corrik Ronis
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Hahaha ahh no. No I'm eagerly waiting for what I hope will be quite an entertaining event, one filled with shouts of "Hold the line!"
#199
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 08:25
MaximizedAction
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I don't feel sorry for the particular conference, although, having read above replies, it would be something new and interesting and fun to see a peaceful mob outside, protesting, holding up signs of "disingenuous assertions" etc.
In general, though, I have gained new hope after watching the Indoctrination Theory clip and reading a few well articulated, professional blog entries and analysis from authors and other people from literacy. New hope for Bioware and ME3.
How so?
When something makes perfect sense, sense from logic, cold hard beautiful logic you're just instantly convinced. And if you watched the Indoctrination vid and have played all three ME games then it's not that hard to see a pattern in ME3 that seems like "it has been there all the time...", "of course, that's it...".
When you see a good analysis of ME3's story with all these small things that have seemed like plot holes (like Shep's dreams, Anderson's strange behavior on the Catalist, etc.) come together so beautifully, then and only then, can I agree with the producers and devs that this is their best game yet, right to the first line of credits-roll.
But at this point, before any statement, these scribbled, quickly finished pages we got in the official last 10min of a "complete game" - those that remind me of my exam essay's I wrapped up a few seconds before I had to hand them in - just seem like a big April's fool joke to me. From whom? No idea. Maybe it was hEAvy pressure from above.
Therefore, until there is no official statement regarding the degree of corrections/additions they will release, I'm in my right to claim BS on what they promoted the "complete game" as I bought it.
So all in all, sorry? Maybe afterwards Bioware tells us what they have in mind about this. Until then, here's to hoping for the better resolution, just like Shepard would, in his right state of mind.
In general, though, I have gained new hope after watching the Indoctrination Theory clip and reading a few well articulated, professional blog entries and analysis from authors and other people from literacy. New hope for Bioware and ME3.
How so?
When something makes perfect sense, sense from logic, cold hard beautiful logic you're just instantly convinced. And if you watched the Indoctrination vid and have played all three ME games then it's not that hard to see a pattern in ME3 that seems like "it has been there all the time...", "of course, that's it...".
When you see a good analysis of ME3's story with all these small things that have seemed like plot holes (like Shep's dreams, Anderson's strange behavior on the Catalist, etc.) come together so beautifully, then and only then, can I agree with the producers and devs that this is their best game yet, right to the first line of credits-roll.
But at this point, before any statement, these scribbled, quickly finished pages we got in the official last 10min of a "complete game" - those that remind me of my exam essay's I wrapped up a few seconds before I had to hand them in - just seem like a big April's fool joke to me. From whom? No idea. Maybe it was hEAvy pressure from above.
Therefore, until there is no official statement regarding the degree of corrections/additions they will release, I'm in my right to claim BS on what they promoted the "complete game" as I bought it.
So all in all, sorry? Maybe afterwards Bioware tells us what they have in mind about this. Until then, here's to hoping for the better resolution, just like Shepard would, in his right state of mind.
Modifié par MaximizedAction, 26 mars 2012 - 08:34 .
#200
Posté 26 mars 2012 - 08:33
jijeebo
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I don't feel sorry for them, because I refuse to believe that they were so naive that they seriously thought that everyone would lap up that ending, and not be in the least bit pissed that they're ALL. THE. SAME.
Plus they've had plenty of time to prepare their deflections and cryptic responses.
I'm still holding the line for an announcement involving shiny new endings that don't involve relay explosions and spineless crew members.
Plus they've had plenty of time to prepare their deflections and cryptic responses.
I'm still holding the line for an announcement involving shiny new endings that don't involve relay explosions and spineless crew members.
