243 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony208]

It's no use arguing with them. They are outnumbered a thousand to one and still think they're the majority.

Best to just ignore them. With the insults they toss around, most of them are flamebaiting anyway.

[Mixorz]

Melancholic wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Are you seriously implying we need the voice of at least 51% of all copies sold before you will consider us a majority?

I don't think that's how it works, friend.

You obviously don't know what a majority is.

[Clayless]

blehblah123 wrote...

one thing i don't get is....generally the pro-ending crowd claims that the absolutely love the ending because it is open ended and it does lead the speculation...my question then becomes..how come no pro-ending people are actively discussing what they think of the ending..you know..speculating as it was originally intended? for example, after inception...people where flooding the forums on imdb about the endings and what they thought it meant..how come there isn't such analysis present in these forums?

Because the Retake movement actively call for those threads to be drowned out, and people who make threads saying they liked the ending are insulted and called trolls in their own threads.

[Vromrig]

DemGeth wrote...

2 and 3 aren't Rpg's. Rpg's are defined by dice based combat. Course that's largely forgotten nowadays and doesn't change how much I like either game.

Incorrect, a mistaken concept brought on by the 90's.  Dice also unnecessary.  Typically, 90's definition involved simply characters who level.

In any case, bastardization of concept that began to die in mid 2000's.

It's no use arguing with them. They are outnumbered a thousand to one and still think they're the majority.

Best to just ignore them. With the insults they toss around, most of them are flamebaiting anyway.

Trolling statement, becoming typical of pro-ending crowd.  Does little to support argument.

Modifié par Vromrig, 25 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[Flextt]

The Retake movement might be a minority and a vocal one at that. But people disliking the ending even without knowing the whole circus? I think the majority of people is NOT in favor of the end. Of course, I cannot prove it.
But the other side is unable to do that as well. And there are no statistics to even remotely suggest the ending is viewed favorably by a majority of the ME 3 playerbase. Sale figures and game magazine reviews are not a demographic. Journalists are not impartial.

[Jeno_340]

scrapmetals wrote...

The only thing I have to disagree about is the "adding RPG elements to ME3". There were way more RPG elements in 1 and 2 in my opinion.

In a way, you are right. But those weren't the rpg elements I was referring to.

In ME2, there was a very simple skill/upgrade system compared to ME1. I still actually preferred it over ME1's clumsy system but it was nice to find a combo of both in 3.

I am a little disappointed about the auto dialogue in ME3 but I understand why they decided to go that route.

In ME1 and 2, all the interactions your character had with others were awesome but they did feel unrealistic. Shepard usually either said or asked one thing and whoever he was talking to would give a drawn out and elaborate response.

In this game, it felt like Shepard actually had a voice and the conversations that were had (especially between shep and Garrus) actually felt real. It wasn't just Shep asking the questions and Garrus telling stories. They were both interacting with each other. I'm a communication major so this was a very pleasant surprise for me. The game definitely had more of a cinematic feel to it and i liked that, despite having less control over what I said compared to ME 1 and 2.

[Mixorz]

Tony208 wrote...

It's no use arguing with them. They are outnumbered a thousand to one and still think they're the majority.

Best to just ignore them. With the insults they toss around, most of them are flamebaiting anyway.

Outnumbered here yes, but then again that's what is feeding this take back hold the line circle jerk. You guys are so cute here thinking you are a real voice. There was nothing wrong with the ending. Learn to comprehend and move on.

Modifié par Mixorz, 25 mars 2012 - 11:34 .

[DemGeth]

Vromrig wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

2 and 3 aren't Rpg's. Rpg's are defined by dice based combat. Course that's largely forgotten nowadays and doesn't change how much I like either game.

Incorrect, a mistaken concept brought on by the 90's.  Dice also unnecessary.  Typically, 90's definition involved simply characters who level.

In any case, bastardization of concept that began to die in mid 2000's.

Yes, yes I said I was wrong

Modifié par DemGeth, 25 mars 2012 - 11:33 .

[Machazareel]

Valo_Soren wrote...

Melancholic wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Are you seriously implying we need the voice of at least 51% of all copies sold before you will consider us a majority?

I don't think that's how it works, friend.

Yes, that is exactly what we're saying.
Yes, that is exactly how it works.

Hay gaiz, wutz a sample size?

[DeadPoolX]

Opsrbest wrote...

ThePrestige10 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...


Your 10 'friends' if they even exist don't mean anything. Amazon and origin always offer refunds. Price drops always happen as well. reviewers are split? hmm 70 plus perfect scores. you can guarantee all you want you don't know anything and there is no proof your little minority out cry will do a damn thing to Bioware sales.

All the crap you are saying was the same crap people like you said about Dragon Age 2. And not only did it sell good, the dlc was decent, and the ending never changed, AND Bioware still made a lot of money on ME3. likewise will again after ME3. History is against you as is logic. research before you make dumb threads atleast

I have viewed a lot of threads about this topic. And one thing always stood out: You are pretty vocal in all of those threads. And in those threads you are also the minority. Are you noticing something?

I have nothing against you. And I don't want to displease you. But I think you are actually the vocal minority here.

On forums, two things make people post. Outrage at what they are reading and the ability to post thier outrage. The basis of all forums is discussion so you will naturally see people posting in both manners. However on the BSN and the past two weeks attest to it is that until Bioware makes a consession, and people have the time to rage about that consession, it isn't a place for discussion. It's a place for the loudest and most whiniest.

Reality check time is starting to set in on people. That what they want they aren't going to get. So they have no reason to continue going on being as loud as they can and doing whatever they can. And if you read the "So you can't get the ending you want" thread they have been very busy. Which is most of them are sticking to that one thread now.

He has a point.  More often than not, people will post about their complaints, problems, issues, etc.  It's rare to see someone go to the effort of posting something positive, probably because if they liked the product, they don't have a burning desire to rush to a board and tell everyone. 

[AtlasMickey]

ImmovableMover wrote...

MattFini wrote...

^ Yep. Even casual fans I know (a person at work who bought 3, never played the first two) hated the ending.

Ditto, I've yet to meet anyone who has played ME3...harcore or just "Well I like the blue ladies" gamers, who have not either been enraged by the ending, or just plain confused by it.

You haven't met me.

I even tell my gamer friends who don't play ME, but stick to zombie games or CoD, "tell your friends you actually know someone who likes and enjoys the ending to Mass Effect 3."

[Jeno_340]

Lugaidster wrote...

I agree with your statement up to the point on indoctrination theory. Indoc theory is quite polarizing. Many love it and many hate it, so let's not go around saying that it is their saving grace.

Okay, I'll edit my post. Honestly, I've seen a lot of theories that I've liked so far and I'd be fine with any of them. Indoc just seems to make more sense to me because it would mean that the developers wouldn't have to rewrite anything. Just...add onto it.

But actually rewriting the whole ending has the potential to give us a satisfying ending more than the IT. I just don't have hopes that Bioware will go that far.

[Lugaidster]

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

 I dare you to back that statement up. I double dare you. Go look up a book on statistics and market behavior and read a bit of it. I triple dare you to come up with a failproof way to make a direct relation between the number of copies sold and the number of anti-enders. I'm pretty sure you won't come up with an answer, and if you come back with the typical "2 million sales 50000 complaining thus minority", the best thing I can say is you're ignorant.

BTW, go look polls all over the internet. While they barely prove more than the fact that there are a lot of people that don't like the endings, in none of them are there more people that like it than the people that hate it. The best split I've seen for the pro-enders camp is around 60(anti)-40(pro) but they are usually 80-20. No extrapolation on these is realistic, but they are enough as circumstantial evidence to make Bioware worry a lot and investigate more. Worry enough that the co-founder had to make a statement.

All of that being said, the fact that a few days ago there were as many people mentioning RetakeME3 as people mentioning Mass Effect is a pretty good indicator that things are not ok.

[Janus382]

 So, I mentioned it, but none of the naysayers paid any attention to it, so I'll do the math.  Just based on Facebook likes... for the record, I've neither "officially" joined the Retake movment, nor "Liked" the facebook group.  I'm sure I'm not the only one.

90-9-1 rule... basically 9-10% are active.
http://www.useit.com...inequality.html

52,000 active would ballpark around 600k people who are dissatisfied with the ending.  However, it's been postulated that a "traumatic event" could cause some of the 90% inactives to become pro-active... I've seen a lot of lurkers on the board chime in... so it could skew the result to being a bit less than 600k.

4% rule... that only 4% of dissatisfied customers complain.
Google it, there's a ton of stuff.

52,000 active would ballpark around 1.3 million people... which imo is too high, since it's doubtful that that many people have even beaten the game, given sales/shipping... but the rule does have weight to it.

Like I said, minority/majority claims can't be made, but a plurality is quite likely... and 52k should, by no means, be taken as a literal, accurate approximation of the total outcry.

Modifié par Janus382, 25 mars 2012 - 11:45 .

[Mixorz]

Hey guys, these three friends I have like the Mass Effect 3 ending so it must reflect everyone. Isn't word of mouth great.

[Clayless]

Opsrbest wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Melancholic wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Are you seriously implying we need the voice of at least 51% of all copies sold before you will consider us a majority?

I don't think that's how it works, friend.

Actually, if you say you're the majority you need the majority.

Not, well we have a minority, so therefore we're clearly the majority.

Actually they would be the majority. There are more people then not who don't like the endings. It's just that it's only the childish immautre ****s that joined teh facebook page, feel the need to carry on certain threads well past there point of reason and create a charitable fund to get what they are saying across to people.

The majority don't want to be considered apart of the vocal minority.

That's still an assumption.

It could be that the majority didn't hate the ending. Both are assumptions.

[DemGeth]

Janus382 wrote...

 So, I mentioned it, but none of the naysayers paid any attention to it, so I'll do the math.  Just based on Facebook likes... for the record, I've neither "officially" joined the Retake movment, no "Liked" the facebook group.

90-9-1 rule... basically 9-10% are active.
http://www.useit.com...inequality.html

52,000 active would ballpark around 600k people who are dissatisfied with the ending.  However, it's been postulated that a "traumatic event" could cause some of the 90% inactives to become pro-active... I've seen a lot of lurkers on the board chime in... so it could skew the result to being a bit less than 600k.

4% rule... that only 4% of dissatisfied customers complain.
Google it, there's a ton of stuff.

52,000 active would ballpark around 1.3 million people... which imo is too high, since it's doubtful that that many people have even beaten the game, given sales/shipping... but the rule does have weight to it.

Like I said, minority/majority claims can't be made, but a plurality is quite likely... and 52k should, by no means, be taken as a literal, accurate approximation of the total outcry.

It's a different model completly for entertainment products with a rabid fanbase.  Look at Star Wars.  You can ****** off a minortiy of the total audience and still satisfy the majority of people that get/watch it.

Not that that is what you should be aiming for  

[The Lightspeaker]

Only the people at each end of the spectrum (i.e. those who really, really hated it and those who really, really liked it) will tend to post and make comment and vote in polls.

The fact that the people at the negative end of the spectrum far, far outweigh those at the positive end tells you all you need to know really. This fallacy of "oh well if they're not posting they must have liked it" is just that, a fallacy. Nobody can prove anything about how the "majority" of people think, all you can do is extrapolate from these extreme ends.

[Sellara]

People are generally busy, and as more and more casual players beat the game, the number will rise. The people arguing that we are a minority.. are odd. I don't understand your motivations, but you are almost certainly wrong if you look at this in any way that is close to logic based.

[Jeno_340]

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

[Jeno_340]

Valo_Soren wrote...

Whether you like it or not, fight against it as much as you want, you're still the vocal minority, out of the 2 million plus copies sold there is a large amount of fans who probably don't even know this controversy is taking place. Most people who like the ending don't feel the need to come and proclaim it on the forums, that's usually the reaction for most people who hate something. The only reason we ending lovers seem out numbered here on the forums because its being flooded by mostly people who dislike the ending because they of course, have to complain about everything.

Again, this generalization that "Those that don't complain on the forums obviously like it" is not true.

My bets are that most people have mixed feelings towards it compared to the majority of people (I would assume) liking ME1 and 2's ending.

[DeadPoolX]

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

[MrLee95]

People also seem to forget what a “vocal minority” can do.

If you take USA history for an example…

Martin Luther King Jr. and those who supported him where a vocal minority at the start. And thankfully because of MLK Jr. African Americans finally got things changed for the better. Just like women’s rights, they were also a minority but with strong leaders and a powerful following things where changed!

Modifié par MrLee95, 25 mars 2012 - 11:44 .

[DeadPoolX]

MrLee95 wrote...

People also seem to forget what a “vocal minority” can do.

If you take USA history for an example…

Martin Luther King Jr. and those who supported him where a vocal minority at the start. And thankfully because of MLK Jr. African Americans finally got things changed for the better. Just like women’s rights, they were also a minority but with strong leaders and a powerful following things where changed!

Very true.  I think some people feel that by calling them a "vocal minority" it means they have no power to change anything.  All it means is you don't statistically make up the bulk of the group considered.  It says nothing about your ability to inact change.