243 réponses à ce sujet

[Jeno_340]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

But are you at least in the "an alternate ending would be nice" group? Because if you are, that is one more person on the Retake side, regardless if you feel strongly about it or not.

[Vromrig]

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

You can claim that you are the majority, but unless you actually are the majority it's pointless to try and convince people with your assumptions.

[DemGeth]

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.  

[Jeno_340]

Vromrig wrote...

No statistical evidence to suggest anti-ending are "minority".

Relying on absence of data. Namely, assumption that because vocal amount does not exceed 51% of sales, 51% or more of sales must support.

Illogical conclusion.

Omg. I really don't want to insult you because you don't seem like a
troll but you really need to learn about sampling/polling/statistics.
You literally sound like you are 12 with this kind of logic. (and if you
are, then you need not take any offense. You will learn about this
stuff in high school or college. If not, please google it and then come
back before arguing anymore)

Typical internet style argument.  No sources or statistics/evidence to support argument.

Berates, demands opponent do own research.

Argument invalid.

I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about the other guy who said something like "51% of all gamers have to go online and vote/join the retake movement in order to prove that the majority of consumers don't like the game".

I'm not going to spend an hour to go out of my way to find exact specifics to prove what I know is CLEARLY to be true.

[Kioux]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

You can claim that you are the majority, but unless you actually are the majority it's pointless to try and convince people with your assumptions.

Which works one way or another.

[DemGeth]

Jeno_340 wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

But are you at least in the "an alternate ending would be nice" group? Because if you are, that is one more person on the Retake side, regardless if you feel strongly about it or not.

Um no read your mission statement

[LdyBelial]

In a few more weeks -- as the sales numbers continue to come in -- we shall see how many pro-enders have influenced their friends and if the critical acclaim can somehow manage to overshadow the fallout of the dissatisfied fans?

When the next round of DLC hits the number of players willing to invest will also be telling.

Retakers may be the minority, pro-enders may be the majority. But... at the end of the day it will be about bank -- what's rolling in and what's rolling out.

I doubt many who played the game will invest in DLC. The replayability factor with any game that has such a dreary, dark, sad, depressing, plothole-ridden ending, doesn't really invite it. Even the two people I know who thought the ending was ok won't be playing through it again. They've already moved on to other, more satisfying games.

The good news is -- some of you will buy it!

What I find really confusing? What's with all the anger at us who don't like the ending? YOU got what you wanted. You should be dancing! Heck... if I had been able to love the ending as much as some of you profess to love it? I wouldn't be here! I WOULD BE REPLAYING the GAME!

You should voice your support of the end -- but bashing those of us who didn't like it, only makes your side look bad. Just like those on our side bashing you makes us look bad.

You want us to "wise up and move on already"? Why? What do you lose because of us? NOTHING! You've already got what you wanted. We poor "vocal minority" haven't -- and you can gloat about that. No need to rub salt into the wounds, unless of course your goal is to just be a jerk.

[Lugaidster]

Vromrig wrote...

That's like me taking a polling sample from the small Democratic state i live in about who will win a presidental election.

Incorrect. Further, political polling sample sizes typically do not exceed 1000, +/- few hundred, even in democratic states.

Sample size of 60,000+, including both supporters and non, across various areas, constitutes sufficient sample size.

The sampling method is unscientific at best. There's no way to ensure truly random sampling. I'm not saying we are a minority or anything, but those polls are barely representative. All Bioware can take from them is that there seems to be a trend or a problem so they have to investigate more. But they don't point to a majority nor do they point to anything really.

[Aesieru]

DemGeth wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.  

The bombs were cleared up actually, Amazon reviews are meticulously moderated Metacritic was purged even though many of those reviews were accurate, most bombs are removed, polls still showed the same results.

Mordin is smarter than you no offense, he's right in this, living in deniable won't fix it.

Statistical law reinforces that the majority is true.

[Vromrig]

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.

Incorrect. Pushing agenda. "Must be vocal minority". Statistics do not demonstrate this. Argument based solely on assumption, word of mouth.

Provide data, or obligated to abdicate.

[DemGeth]

Aesieru wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.  

The bombs were cleared up actually, Amazon reviews are meticulously moderated Metacritic was purged even though many of those reviews were accurate, most bombs are removed, polls still showed the same results.

Mordin is smarter than you no offense, he's right in this, living in deniable won't fix it.

Statistical law reinforces that the majority is true.

Statistical law oh man......


At some point I start to feel bad for you guys.  

[Janus382]

Swisspease wrote...

There have been 12 US Presidential elections where the winner has won with less than 50% of the popular vote. Lincoln was one of them with 39.8%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States'_presidential_plurality_victories

The Mass Effect endings debate is not a two party race. You are forgetting about those people who just don't care, have not yet finished the game, etc. To say that you need 51% is ridiculous.

Thank you, that's what I've been saying.  Those upset about the ending are most likely a plurality.
The claim that review bombing affecting polling results could also likely be countered by amount of reviews from critics in excess of 90%.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.

Incorrect. Pushing agenda. "Must be vocal minority". Statistics do not demonstrate this. Argument based solely on assumption, word of mouth.

Provide data, or obligated to abdicate.

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

[recentio]

Let's try a different comparison. Given the population of people who bought ME2 and the population of people who bought ME3, we can assume some significant basic similarity between these populations. Based on that population similarity, let's compare the observed audience reactions to ME2 and ME3. The audience reaction to ME2 was largely accepting and positive with some quibbling over points of personal taste. Never was there a mass, organized outcry against ME2. Conversely, the audience reaction to ME3 included an ending-opposed internet coalition of significant size being formed. By comparing the different observed reactions between these two similar base populations, we can rightly assume that the reaction to ME3 is more negative than the reaction to ME2. If compared by degree of reaction, I think it can be reasonably conjectured that the reaction to ME3 is much more negative than the reaction to ME2. This does not verify majority/minorty popularity of either. But it does verify a significant drop in rate of positivity between these two highly similar populations. I feel comfortable hypothesizing that ME3 is much, much less popular with players than ME2 based on the astoundingly different audience reactions.

Modifié par recentio, 26 mars 2012 - 12:10 .

[frylock23]

Valo_Soren wrote...

Melancholic wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Are you seriously implying we need the voice of at least 51% of all copies sold before you will consider us a majority?

I don't think that's how it works, friend.

Yes, that is exactly what we're saying.
Yes, that is exactly how it works.

Then, you can't consider yourself a majority, either. Most of those people will never know that there is any kind of movement. Satisfied or not, they'll be isolated in there opinion. It's widely said in most MMO circles that only about 10% of MMO players ever frequent the game forums.

[Lugaidster]

Jeno_340 wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

But are you at least in the "an alternate ending would be nice" group? Because if you are, that is one more person on the Retake side, regardless if you feel strongly about it or not.

One more for the retake side, but not showing in any "official" movement number, so what's your point? 

[Jeno_340]

DemGeth wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

ZodiEmish wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Dridengx wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

-snip-

Actually we do know how many hated it, 52,000. that isn't very many lol. that's right you don't know anything especially how many liked it but you can't claim people who liked it are smaller than 52k lol.

I stopped reading right here since you obviously don't understand polling and sampling at all. Others in this thread have already explained to you why your logic is wrong. I won't waste my time adding to that.

Oh I am sure he understands it... one thing you will find i the Pro Enders will ignore both logic and statistical theory. You will find this ALL over the BSN.. and it seems like nearlly every single one of them does this.  Only reason why they ignore it is because their arguement is to weak to  take on the date without resorting to attacks, and fallacy....

I'm not here to attack pro enders. Typically, pro enders aren't really hardcore fans of the series. For instance, I liked Bioshock 1's ending and I loved Bioshock 2 even more. A hardcore Bioshock fan would disagree with me. I'm a casual Bio fan so my opinion is going to be a lot less harsh.

If I had never played ME 1 or 2 (or even just 1 if I was a ps3 user), I would have a lot less reason to dislike because it wasn't "Superman 64" terrible.

Again you can be a fan and like the ending.  

So far, there aren't many. Those that argue for the ending don't seem to realize all the broken promises/plotholes/inconsistencies in themes that showed up in the last 15 minutes.

From an outside perspective, it is kind of cool. But when you have a firm understand of everything the game stands for/is trying to be, you see that the ending does not fit with the game at all.

I won't go into detail but ME is a game about story and choice. Story is violated and choice is taken away from you at the end (different colored explosions don't qualify as choice).

[ZodiEmish]

DemGeth wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

So we're just pretending there was no review bombing in other words. They aren't even close to scientific polls. The Retake movement complelty destroyed any worth they had.

There's no scientific data either way.

If you must feel you are a majority you're more than welcome too though

No pretending.

Data only supports majority disapproval of ending. If data only suggests one course, and not other, one must support where the data goes.

This is case of attempting to dismiss data to push agenda.

Unacceptable.

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.  

The bombs were cleared up actually, Amazon reviews are meticulously moderated Metacritic was purged even though many of those reviews were accurate, most bombs are removed, polls still showed the same results.

Mordin is smarter than you no offense, he's right in this, living in deniable won't fix it.

Statistical law reinforces that the majority is true.

Statistical law oh man......


At some point I start to feel bad for you guys.  

Why would you feel bad? There are Laws of statistics...  I think someone should open up another tab, and do a little google research... Might make this arguement between you two more lively.

* Sits on a rock and watches while eating popcorn *

[MattFini]

Vromrig wrote...

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.

Incorrect. Pushing agenda. "Must be vocal minority". Statistics do not demonstrate this. Argument based solely on assumption, word of mouth.

Provide data, or obligated to abdicate.

I never tire of Vromrig.  10/10

[DemGeth]

recentio wrote...

Let's try a different comparison. Given the population of people who bought ME2 and the population of people who bought ME3, we can assume some significant basic similarity between these populations. Based on that population similarity, let's compare the observed audience reactions to ME2 and ME3. The audience reaction to ME2 was largely accepting and positive with some quibbling over points of personal taste. Never was there a mass, organized outcry against ME2. Conversely, the audience reaction to ME3 incited an ending-opposed internet coalition of significant size to be formed. By comparing the different observed reactions between these two similar base populations, we can rightly assume that the reaction to ME3 is more negative than the reaction to ME2. If compared by degree of reaction, I think it can be reasonably conjectured that the reaction to ME3 is much more negative than the reaction to ME2. This does not verify majority/minorty popularity of either. But it does verify a significant drop in rate of positivity between these two highly similar populations. I think it can safely be said that ME3 is much, much less popular with players than ME2 based on the astoundingly different audience reactions.

Um ME 2 had a huge backlash.  As bad as DA 2.  It was offset by picking up a new consumer base. 

[Vromrig]

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's also no data that shows the majority hate the ending.

Please, this is too easy.

[Vromrig]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's also no data that shows the majority hate the ending.

Please, this is too easy.

Incorrect.  All data supports disapproval of ending by majority.

Sample sizes sufficient, diversity of polling sufficient.  No evidence of general approval of ending.


Logic states that if 1 of 10 approves 10 times, generally, only 1 in 10 approve.

[recentio]

DemGeth wrote...

recentio wrote...

Let's try a different comparison. Given the population of people who bought ME2 and the population of people who bought ME3, we can assume some significant basic similarity between these populations. Based on that population similarity, let's compare the observed audience reactions to ME2 and ME3. The audience reaction to ME2 was largely accepting and positive with some quibbling over points of personal taste. Never was there a mass, organized outcry against ME2. Conversely, the audience reaction to ME3 incited an ending-opposed internet coalition of significant size to be formed. By comparing the different observed reactions between these two similar base populations, we can rightly assume that the reaction to ME3 is more negative than the reaction to ME2. If compared by degree of reaction, I think it can be reasonably conjectured that the reaction to ME3 is much more negative than the reaction to ME2. This does not verify majority/minorty popularity of either. But it does verify a significant drop in rate of positivity between these two highly similar populations. I think it can safely be said that ME3 is much, much less popular with players than ME2 based on the astoundingly different audience reactions.

Um ME 2 had a huge backlash.  As bad as DA 2.  It was offset by picking up a new consumer base. 

I wouldn't call people complaing about the human Reaper or the rise in TPS vs. RPG elements a "huge" backlash in comparison to what we are witnessing now. So, again, "largely accepting."

Modifié par recentio, 26 mars 2012 - 12:12 .