243 réponses à ce sujet

[DemGeth]

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's no data to support general disdain of the ending either.

Like I said earlier, look at a game like Dark Souls.  Petition to bring that to PC is around 100k, and that has a much smaller install base.  So what's that say about a petition with similar numbers and a much larger install base.

[ZodiEmish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's also no data that shows the majority hate the ending.

Please, this is too easy.

I will just drop this here, and go back to my popcorn.

[Swisspease]

MattFini wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Sorry what's actually unacceptable is manipulating data points to push an agenda.

Incorrect. Pushing agenda. "Must be vocal minority". Statistics do not demonstrate this. Argument based solely on assumption, word of mouth.

Provide data, or obligated to abdicate.

I never tire of Vromrig.  10/10

Do you also use Mordin's voice when reading Vromrig? I can't help it.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's also no data that shows the majority hate the ending.

Please, this is too easy.

Incorrect.  All data supports disapproval of ending by majority.

Sample sizes sufficient, diversity of polling sufficient.  No evidence of general approval of ending.


Logic states that if 1 of 10 approves 10 times, generally, only 1 in 10 approve.

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

[Well]

Dridengx wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

 Then pro-ending fans have to be the smallest sliver of the pie. If you know anything about sampling, you would probably believe that most consumers are not very fond of the ending. I don't know how many "hated" it but there sure as heck aren't  that many people that like it as much as the ending of 1 and 2. I can count about 10 friends/acquaintances off the top of my head that didn't use a single positive word to describe the ending and only 2 even plan on playing through it again.

Plus, the facts that the price has dropped to $40 in less than two weeks and that Amazon and Origin are offering full refunds are clear indicators that this game is not being recieved well by many consumers.

Reviewers are split on the endings but they can't give a game a low score just based on the ending. Overall, I agree with all of them that Mass Effect 3 is overall an excellent game. It is just ruined by the ending.

Tl;dr An example of a vocal minority would be those that thought that ME2 was a huge downgrade from ME1. Even then, Bioware appeased them by adding a lot more RPG elements to ME3.

Bioware, I guarantee that most people would prefer an Indoctrination ending over clarification of what we currently have. Do it or suffer revenue loss in the future.

Actually we do know how many hated it, 52,000. that isn't very many lol. that's right you don't know anything especially how many liked it but you can't claim people who liked it are smaller than 52k lol.

Your 10 'friends' if they even exist don't mean anything. Amazon and origin always offer refunds. Price drops always happen as well. reviewers are split? hmm 70 plus perfect scores. you can guarantee all you want you don't know anything and there is no proof your little minority out cry will do a damn thing to Bioware sales.

All the crap you are saying was the same crap people like you said about Dragon Age 2. And not only did it sell good, the dlc was decent, and the ending never changed, AND Bioware still made a lot of money on ME3. likewise will again after ME3. History is against you as is logic. research before you make dumb threads atleast

Prove it.Otherwise it just another opinion.Just a note:The only games Amazon gave me the option of a refund were DA 2 and ME 3.They may have on other games and I am sure you can link them.

[Machazareel]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Statistics do not show one side being the majority.

Therefore, it's an assumption to think one side is the majority until statistics show that.

Argument made as deflection.

Logically speaking, forced to side with argument that has most pertinent data.

No data to support general approval of ending.

There's also no data that shows the majority hate the ending.

Please, this is too easy.

There's a rather copious amount of polls across a wide array of websites which while not 100% conclusive due to lack of a completely random sample group, still all indicate the same general trend. While not perfect, its still data and is far more indicative of one side being a majority over the other considering the actual size of the sample.

[Vromrig]

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

[Jeno_340]

Kioux wrote...

While you are all arguing and fighting - and while some attempted to insult me by generalizing certain groups - you might want to take into consideration that there is quite a number of people who bought more than one copy. So - even if 2.5 million copies were sold - they didn't end up in 2.5 million different pairs of hands.

Actually, I'd go as far to say that the opposite of this is true. Many families and groups of friends typically buy just one copy of the game. The amount of people that buy more than one copy of the game are probably an extreme minority. (sense it seems like a waste of money for most people).

Additionally, even if polls are not complete - since they very rarely have 100% of the focused group take part - they are usually showing a certain direction, otherwise making any sort of polls would be pointless. And to assume that the numbers are all about faked accounts is either simply sad or sounds a bit like an excuse - that's my personal opinion.
You are all certainly free to disagree but for some people who call others immature - it would not be very mature to return to childish name-calling by reading something they don't like.

They only time I resort to insults is if the person is seriously lacking in any kind of logic at all. If I was a bigger man, I'd simply ignore those trolls but I can't help it sometimes.

I never means to insult anybody that likes the ending. I'm just fighting the people who like the ending that think they are the majority.

They aren't.

The only reason the ending SHOULDN'T be changed is if the people who liked the game ARE the majority. They aren't. This goes back to my main point that change should occur.

[Lugaidster]

Aesieru wrote...

The bombs were cleared up actually, Amazon reviews are meticulously moderated Metacritic was purged even though many of those reviews were accurate, most bombs are removed, polls still showed the same results.

Mordin is smarter than you no offense, he's right in this, living in deniable won't fix it.

Statistical law reinforces that the majority is true.

Dude, please. I hate the end and even I can say that those reviews are skewed. Go to metacritic, there's bombs every single day. A zero points review? The same goes for amazon.

All those data-points are unscientific. They aren't representative of real market behaviour. They are circumstancial evidence at best, and that's how they should be treated.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

[DemGeth]

Jeno_340 wrote...

Kioux wrote...

While you are all arguing and fighting - and while some attempted to insult me by generalizing certain groups - you might want to take into consideration that there is quite a number of people who bought more than one copy. So - even if 2.5 million copies were sold - they didn't end up in 2.5 million different pairs of hands.

Actually, I'd go as far to say that the opposite of this is true. Many families and groups of friends typically buy just one copy of the game. The amount of people that buy more than one copy of the game are probably an extreme minority. (sense it seems like a waste of money for most people).

Additionally, even if polls are not complete - since they very rarely have 100% of the focused group take part - they are usually showing a certain direction, otherwise making any sort of polls would be pointless. And to assume that the numbers are all about faked accounts is either simply sad or sounds a bit like an excuse - that's my personal opinion.
You are all certainly free to disagree but for some people who call others immature - it would not be very mature to return to childish name-calling by reading something they don't like.

They only time I resort to insults is if the person is seriously lacking in any kind of logic at all. If I was a bigger man, I'd simply ignore those trolls but I can't help it sometimes.

I never means to insult anybody that likes the ending. I'm just fighting the people who like the ending that think they are the majority.

They aren't.

The only reason the ending SHOULDN'T be changed is if the people who liked the game ARE the majority. They aren't. This goes back to my main point that change should occur.

Every online poll is linked on here for people to bomb.  It invalidates the polls.  All they show is that Retake can bomb polls.  

[Vromrig]

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

Inconsistent scenario. Should avoid analogies if incapable of wielding them.

Invoking cats due to already well established popular approval. Using variables that already exist in attempt to invoke emotional response.

Ultimately invalid.

Fresh product, no prior biases released. All polling data, inquiries, etc. indicate disapproval.

Not "some" data to suggest vocal minority. No data.

Cannot draw conclusion with zero data.

Illogical.

[Jeno_340]

Lugaidster wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

That's like me taking a polling sample from the small Democratic state i live in about who will win a presidental election.

Incorrect. Further, political polling sample sizes typically do not exceed 1000, +/- few hundred, even in democratic states.

Sample size of 60,000+, including both supporters and non, across various areas, constitutes sufficient sample size.

The sampling method is unscientific at best. There's no way to ensure truly random sampling. I'm not saying we are a minority or anything, but those polls are barely representative. All Bioware can take from them is that there seems to be a trend or a problem so they have to investigate more. But they don't point to a majority nor do they point to anything really.

Okay, this is where I disagree with Vromrig, despite his awesome Mordin character.

You can't interview a selective sample (the democratic city for example) and expect to get accurate results for the whole country. The whole point of random sampling is so that you try to get an opinion from all the variety of people.

[Vromrig]

Okay, this is where I disagree with Vromrig, despite his awesome Mordin character.

You can't interview a selective sample (the democratic city for example) and expect to get accurate results for the whole country. The whole point of random sampling is so that you try to get an opinion from all the variety of people.

Agreement not entirely necessary. Rasmussen uses similar polling techniques. Small, miniscule sample sizes, often smaller polls. Less overall response.

[Aesieru]

Jeno_340 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

That's like me taking a polling sample from the small Democratic state i live in about who will win a presidental election.

Incorrect. Further, political polling sample sizes typically do not exceed 1000, +/- few hundred, even in democratic states.

Sample size of 60,000+, including both supporters and non, across various areas, constitutes sufficient sample size.

The sampling method is unscientific at best. There's no way to ensure truly random sampling. I'm not saying we are a minority or anything, but those polls are barely representative. All Bioware can take from them is that there seems to be a trend or a problem so they have to investigate more. But they don't point to a majority nor do they point to anything really.

Okay, this is where I disagree with Vromrig, despite his awesome Mordin character.

You can't interview a selective sample (the democratic city for example) and expect to get accurate results for the whole country. The whole point of random sampling is so that you try to get an opinion from all the variety of people.

Agreeable, hence why the polls are from numerous places across the world.

[Jeno_340]

Lugaidster wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

But are you at least in the "an alternate ending would be nice" group? Because if you are, that is one more person on the Retake side, regardless if you feel strongly about it or not.

One more for the retake side, but not showing in any "official" movement number, so what's your point? 

My point is that Bioware should have incentive to change the ending. Regardless if you feel strongly about it or not, if the majority of people don't "like" the ending, then there is a reason to change it.

This reason includes mostly future dlc/game sales and fan loyalty. If the majority of people are just "meh" about the ending, an alternate ending might change that and thus increase interest in the game and this increasing dlc sales, sequel sales, and even different IP (but still Bioware) sales.

[Vromrig]

Agreeable, hence why the polls are from numerous places across the world.

Point I was making.

BSN poll, not sole source. Diversified across multiple mediums.

No medium demonstrates even minority approval.

In most cases, majority disapproval, minority indifference. Approval smallest minority.

Arguably beneath approval for Mussolini.

Requires more tests.

[Aesieru]

Lugaidster wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

The bombs were cleared up actually, Amazon reviews are meticulously moderated Metacritic was purged even though many of those reviews were accurate, most bombs are removed, polls still showed the same results.

Mordin is smarter than you no offense, he's right in this, living in deniable won't fix it.

Statistical law reinforces that the majority is true.

Dude, please. I hate the end and even I can say that those reviews are skewed. Go to metacritic, there's bombs every single day. A zero points review? The same goes for amazon.

All those data-points are unscientific. They aren't representative of real market behaviour. They are circumstancial evidence at best, and that's how they should be treated.

Amazon seems well reviewed, just double checked. Metacritic is important to the industry, not really to gamers from what I recall.

[DemGeth]

Sorry how many sigs on your petition again?

[ZodiEmish]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

Also  a little bit more data to keep the facts straight...

There is a difference between Units Shipped and Units sold. You have them mixed up... 3.5 million units were shipped. But only 890,000 were sold in the US. the 3.5 millon was not sold. that is what was sent to stores. As it stands right now were looking at maybe around 1.2 million sold. ( hard to tell with out full data, but seeing that the UK chart showed at 75% drop in game sales. it is a safe estimate.

But... 3.5 million games were not sold. they were shipped... Come on people Fact Check.. do I have to do it for all of you. Google is your friend. Here let me google that for you.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

Inconsistent scenario. Should avoid analogies if incapable of wielding them.

Invoking cats due to already well established popular approval. Using variables that already exist in attempt to invoke emotional response.

Ultimately invalid.

Fresh product, no prior biases released. All polling data, inquiries, etc. indicate disapproval.

Not "some" data to suggest vocal minority. No data.

Cannot draw conclusion with zero data.

Illogical.

Indeed, it IS illogical to draw a conclusion with zero data.

Like how saying "The majority hates the ending, despite polls just showing it as being a minority, with no data showing the majority hates then ending."

[Aesieru]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

Inconsistent scenario. Should avoid analogies if incapable of wielding them.

Invoking cats due to already well established popular approval. Using variables that already exist in attempt to invoke emotional response.

Ultimately invalid.

Fresh product, no prior biases released. All polling data, inquiries, etc. indicate disapproval.

Not "some" data to suggest vocal minority. No data.

Cannot draw conclusion with zero data.

Illogical.

Indeed, it IS illogical to draw a conclusion with zero data.

Like how saying "The majority hates the ending, despite polls just showing it as being a minority, with no data showing the majority hates then ending."

Every poll when properly looked at shows the majority hated the ending in some capacity.

You better get some proof.

[Vromrig]

Indeed, it IS illogical to draw a conclusion with zero data.

Like how saying "The majority hates the ending, despite polls just showing it as being a minority, with no data showing the majority hates then ending."

Incorrect. Argument beginning to decline into libelous deceit.

No data suggests approval of ending. Zero. Impossible, then, to mount argument that disapproval minority.

Refusal to accept breaching political levels.

[DemGeth]

Vromrig wrote...

Indeed, it IS illogical to draw a conclusion with zero data.

Like how saying "The majority hates the ending, despite polls just showing it as being a minority, with no data showing the majority hates then ending."

Incorrect. Argument beginning to decline into libelous deceit.

No data suggests approval of ending. Zero. Impossible, then, to mount argument that disapproval minority.

Refusal to accept breaching political levels.

Poor Mordin, if this is your idea of science you'd still be "an undergrad"

[Jeno_340]

recentio wrote...

DemGeth wrote...

recentio wrote...

Let's try a different comparison. Given the population of people who bought ME2 and the population of people who bought ME3, we can assume some significant basic similarity between these populations. Based on that population similarity, let's compare the observed audience reactions to ME2 and ME3. The audience reaction to ME2 was largely accepting and positive with some quibbling over points of personal taste. Never was there a mass, organized outcry against ME2. Conversely, the audience reaction to ME3 incited an ending-opposed internet coalition of significant size to be formed. By comparing the different observed reactions between these two similar base populations, we can rightly assume that the reaction to ME3 is more negative than the reaction to ME2. If compared by degree of reaction, I think it can be reasonably conjectured that the reaction to ME3 is much more negative than the reaction to ME2. This does not verify majority/minorty popularity of either. But it does verify a significant drop in rate of positivity between these two highly similar populations. I think it can safely be said that ME3 is much, much less popular with players than ME2 based on the astoundingly different audience reactions.

Um ME 2 had a huge backlash.  As bad as DA 2.  It was offset by picking up a new consumer base. 

I wouldn't call people complaing about the human Reaper or the rise in TPS vs. RPG elements a "huge" backlash in comparison to what we are witnessing now. So, again, "largely accepting."

Recentio, I completely agree with you. ME2 had a real "vocal minority" backlash. I wouldn't even call it a backlash. Some people were bummed that there was less RPG but no one threw a fit like they did with the ME3 ending.