243 réponses à ce sujet

[Vromrig]

Poor Mordin, if this is your idea of science you'd still be "an undergrad"

Consistent with prior arguments. Lack of statistics, data, ultimately resulting in lack of argument.

Resorts to petty attacks.

Unfortunate.

Position still stronger, however.

[sargon1986]

Dridengx wrote...

Actually we do know how many hated it, 52,000. that isn't very many lol. that's right you don't know anything especially how many liked it but you can't claim people who liked it are smaller than 52k lol.

Your 10 'friends' if they even exist don't mean anything. Amazon and origin always offer refunds. Price drops always happen as well. reviewers are split? hmm 70 plus perfect scores. you can guarantee all you want you don't know anything and there is no proof your little minority out cry will do a damn thing to Bioware sales.

All the crap you are saying was the same crap people like you said about Dragon Age 2. And not only did it sell good, the dlc was decent, and the ending never changed, AND Bioware still made a lot of money on ME3. likewise will again after ME3. History is against you as is logic. research before you make dumb threads atleast

Its funny how you pro-enders attempt to invalidate that poll. I would like to remind you that there were many, many polls taken and 85-95% people hated it in all of them. It really says something about how big the problem is. 

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Indeed, it IS illogical to draw a conclusion with zero data.

Like how saying "The majority hates the ending, despite polls just showing it as being a minority, with no data showing the majority hates then ending."

Incorrect. Argument beginning to decline into libelous deceit.

No data suggests approval of ending. Zero. Impossible, then, to mount argument that disapproval minority.

Refusal to accept breaching political levels.

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

[DemGeth]

Vromrig wrote...

Poor Mordin, if this is your idea of science you'd still be "an undergrad"

Consistent with prior arguments. Lack of statistics, data, ultimately resulting in lack of argument.

Resorts to petty attacks.

Unfortunate.

Position still stronger, however.

Oh man glad you didn't leave lol.  I hope you have an outift to go with that voice for fancons.  Anyways gonna go do my non-fan thing and play some ME 3 


Have fun, play nice

[Kioux]

So if all polls are open for "bombing" - it is assumed that only those who dislike the ending actually "bomb" the poll which I consider unlikely.
While I personally believe that polls show a certain trend, I can not prove it and neither can those who claim that the "end-haters" are a minority. To have account/linked copies for voting - for example on Origin - one vote per account - would make it clearer. But that will not happen and I doubt any company is willing to give us the "true" numbers as of now. Additionally - even if "Retake Mass Effect" is not majority (which I personally doubt) - they would and will still present a notable amount of money that will no longer flow into BW/EA pockets. Let them be 30% and 20% decide to not buy further products - it will still be a considerable large loss.
But anyway I will simply step away because everyone will always find some flaw somewhere which leads to disagreement or insults.

Modifié par Kioux, 26 mars 2012 - 12:33 .

[DungeonHoek]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to argue this pointless tripe back and forth?. Nothing ever comes of it, neither side is going to hammer their point home. If anything, both sides are just going to make themselves look foolish.

It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Unless you're just trolling, then by all means, have fun.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

Larryboy_Dragon wrote...

On metacritic, despite the boo-hoo over here, ME3 is still ranked better than DA2.
For both Professional and User reviews.

http://www.metacriti...0/mass-effect-3
http://www.metacriti...0/dragon-age-ii

Was lower with user reviews, until EA bribed them to start deleting those.

[Vromrig]

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

[Aesieru]

DungeonHoek wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to argue this pointless tripe back and forth?. Nothing ever comes of it, neither side is going to hammer their point home. If anything, both sides are just going to make themselves look foolish.

It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Unless you're just trolling, then by all means, have fun.

To be one hundred percent factual, the anti-ending crowd which involves more than just the last 5 minutes has plothole proof, interviewe promises proof, and numerous other analysis of the game AND ending on their side. The pro enders have given nothing but opinions without logical reasoning.

The point is hammered home, this is the denial / optimistic refusal stage.

[UrgentArchengel]

If the anti-enders are a vocal minority, then I got an Aunt Sally, and I aint got no Aunt Sally.

[Jeno_340]

Vromrig wrote...

Okay, this is where I disagree with Vromrig, despite his awesome Mordin character.

You can't interview a selective sample (the democratic city for example) and expect to get accurate results for the whole country. The whole point of random sampling is so that you try to get an opinion from all the variety of people.

Agreement not entirely necessary. Rasmussen uses similar polling techniques. Small, miniscule sample sizes, often smaller polls. Less overall response.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. You just need to be wary of where you are "getting" these polls. For instance, I wouldn't gauge the entire public's opinion just by polling the Retake ME3 members.

I'd try to get polls from a variety of gamers that have beaten the game. (and I know that their are faults to this from review bombing but the counter to that is that there is no counter to the Retake movement).

Like another poster said (sorry, forgot his name), compare the backlash from this game to the backlash from ME1 and ME2. In ME1, people were frustrated with the inventory system and boring mako planets. No internet movement. In ME2, people didn't like the downgrade in the RPG system. No internet movement. In ME3, there is a massive movement to change the endings of ME3 and there is no substantial countermovement.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

[Lugaidster]

Vromrig wrote...

Incorrect.  All data supports disapproval of ending by majority.

Sample sizes sufficient, diversity of polling sufficient.  No evidence of general approval of ending.

Logic states that if 1 of 10 approves 10 times, generally, only 1 in 10 approve.

Logical fallacy right there. Conclusions derived from statistical analysis require that statistical analysis be correct. Without proper sampling to ensure diversity, any analysis on the data will be flawed, thus conclusions will be flawed also. It doesn't matter if many flawed analysis lead to one conclusion, they are still flawed, and as such, that conclusion is also.

There's no hard evidence to support that we're a minority, nor is there to support that we're a majority. Any person claiming the opposite is patently wrong.

[Jeno_340]

Aesieru wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

That's like me taking a polling sample from the small Democratic state i live in about who will win a presidental election.

Incorrect. Further, political polling sample sizes typically do not exceed 1000, +/- few hundred, even in democratic states.

Sample size of 60,000+, including both supporters and non, across various areas, constitutes sufficient sample size.

The sampling method is unscientific at best. There's no way to ensure truly random sampling. I'm not saying we are a minority or anything, but those polls are barely representative. All Bioware can take from them is that there seems to be a trend or a problem so they have to investigate more. But they don't point to a majority nor do they point to anything really.

Okay, this is where I disagree with Vromrig, despite his awesome Mordin character.

You can't interview a selective sample (the democratic city for example) and expect to get accurate results for the whole country. The whole point of random sampling is so that you try to get an opinion from all the variety of people.

Agreeable, hence why the polls are from numerous places across the world.

Yeah I know. But from what I got out of Vromrig's statement (I could be wrong) is that it doesn't matter at all where the polls are taken.

[DungeonHoek]

Aesieru wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to argue this pointless tripe back and forth?. Nothing ever comes of it, neither side is going to hammer their point home. If anything, both sides are just going to make themselves look foolish.

It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Unless you're just trolling, then by all means, have fun.

To be one hundred percent factual, the anti-ending crowd which involves more than just the last 5 minutes has plothole proof, interviewe promises proof, and numerous other analysis of the game AND ending on their side. The pro enders have given nothing but opinions without logical reasoning.

The point is hammered home, this is the denial / optimistic refusal stage.

My friend, you misunderstand me. Yes, you have polls and stastical data. But no one is going to listen to the other side. Thus making all this effort pointless.

If the Pro-Enders were going to change their mind. I think they would have by now.

Same with the Anti-Ender group.

Man, now I'm starting to think of congress. They can't agree on anything either. Except which guy to hate.

[UltmtBiz]

Each one of us who speaks up represents a multiple number of people who don't. Bioware understands this and that is why we have gotten a number of responses from them. That is why this issue has made it to the media. There are some who try to downplay what a lot of us are saying by using the term "vocal minority", but Bioware knows that if 100,000 people speak up, then there could be a million people unhappy. That's just an example.

[SovereignFate]

Those of us who don't like the ending are not a minority, but I don't think threads like these (meant to stir up some ****) move us any further toward our goals. Any person who has taken a decent statistics class can tell you we are not a minority, our sample size is large enough to represent all the ME fans.

Hold the Line!

PS, This isn't even to mention all of the follow up polls people have done that show the same trend.

Modifié par SovereignFate, 26 mars 2012 - 12:38 .

[Machazareel]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

Polls. Polls indicate trends. Though many are subject to abuse, IGNs is relatively decent as it was made available to 600,000 people, and it was not possible to vote more than once from the same account. This isn't slam dunk evidence of indisputable fact, but it shows a clear trend, especially when placed beside the results of every other poll about this on the entire intarwebs.

[Janus382]

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

Mordin is killin it!  

There is nothing, anywhere, that suggests disapproving customers are in the minority, or that pro-enders are in the majority.  Nothing.

However, tons of data that suggests disapproving customers are a majority.  Not proven; only suggested.  It is reasonable to assume that those polls are indicative of a much larger group.

Disclaimer:  As I've stated previously, I feel those in disapproval are in the plurality (ex. the largest group, but not exceeding 50%)... and not minority/majority.

Modifié par Janus382, 26 mars 2012 - 12:39 .

[GigaTheToast]

I misread the thread's title and I'm very sorry I did. You don't see think kind of logic in the "pro-ender" side, you mostly just see whining and begging for Bioware not to listen to their own fanbase.

So pro-enders claim us "retakers" (love the nicknames by the way) are the vocal minority, they try to prove this by yelling as loud as they can and are almost always pounded into the dirt by dozens of opposing arguments. I believe that fits the definition of 'vocal minority' to a tee.

[Swisspease]

Lugaidster wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Incorrect.  All data supports disapproval of ending by majority.

Sample sizes sufficient, diversity of polling sufficient.  No evidence of general approval of ending.

Logic states that if 1 of 10 approves 10 times, generally, only 1 in 10 approve.

Logical fallacy right there. Conclusions derived from statistical analysis require that statistical analysis be correct. Without proper sampling to ensure diversity, any analysis on the data will be flawed, thus conclusions will be flawed also. It doesn't matter if many flawed analysis lead to one conclusion, they are still flawed, and as such, that conclusion is also.

There's no hard evidence to support that we're a minority, nor is there to support that we're a majority. Any person claiming the opposite is patently wrong.

I agree

[Lugaidster]

SovereignFate wrote...

Those of us who don't like the ending are not a minority, but I don't think threads like these (meant to stir up some ****) move us any further toward our goals. Any person who has taken a decent statistics class can tell you we are not a minority, our sample size is large enough to represent all the ME fans.

Hold the Line!

PS, This isn't even to mention all of the follow up polls people have done that show the same trend.

And any person that passed with good grades will be able to tell you that sample size isn't the only thing required to have a proper and statistically valid conclusion.

[Clayless]

Machazareel wrote...

Polls. Polls indicate trends. Though many are subject to abuse, IGNs is relatively decent as it was made available to 600,000 people, and it was not possible to vote more than once from the same account. This isn't slam dunk evidence of indisputable fact, but it shows a clear trend, especially when placed beside the results of every other poll about this on the entire intarwebs.

Again, still an assumption the majority hates it.

[Aesieru]

DungeonHoek wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to argue this pointless tripe back and forth?. Nothing ever comes of it, neither side is going to hammer their point home. If anything, both sides are just going to make themselves look foolish.

It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Unless you're just trolling, then by all means, have fun.

To be one hundred percent factual, the anti-ending crowd which involves more than just the last 5 minutes has plothole proof, interviewe promises proof, and numerous other analysis of the game AND ending on their side. The pro enders have given nothing but opinions without logical reasoning.

The point is hammered home, this is the denial / optimistic refusal stage.

My friend, you misunderstand me. Yes, you have polls and stastical data. But no one is going to listen to the other side. Thus making all this effort pointless.

If the Pro-Enders were going to change their mind. I think they would have by now.

Same with the Anti-Ender group.

Man, now I'm starting to think of congress. They can't agree on anything either. Except which guy to hate.

Keep in mind, if the Pro enders don't have any statistical or relevant facts on their side they don't even really get considered when it comes to logical analysis.

If one group says the sky is red, has no proof, but sticks to it till the end of time, no one will ever consider their view whatsoever in regards to logistical analysis.

[Machazareel]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Machazareel wrote...

Polls. Polls indicate trends. Though many are subject to abuse, IGNs is relatively decent as it was made available to 600,000 people, and it was not possible to vote more than once from the same account. This isn't slam dunk evidence of indisputable fact, but it shows a clear trend, especially when placed beside the results of every other poll about this on the entire intarwebs.

Again, still an assumption the majority hates it.

Yes, but an assumption that can be made. I'm not claiming hard evidence, I'm simply saying that given the actual data that is available, despite not being completely reliable, the consistency of the trend *suggests* that the majority dislikes it. No solid decree from yon high that it is indisputable fact, but still perfectly understandable for one to make the assumption that it is likely true.

And with that, I'm off.