243 réponses à ce sujet

[DungeonHoek]

Aesieru wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

Aesieru wrote...

DungeonHoek wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

No it doesn't, all the data shows is the majority of people who voted, and who go on forums, hated the ending.

There is no data that shows the majority hated the ending.

Akin to arguing "Only people who tasted vomit sandwich disliked. Therefore, likely majority enjoy tasting vomit sandwich".

Attempts at gymnastics with numbers. Still unacceptable.

So if 3.5 million people have cats, 50k vote and say they now hate cats, a majority of people hate cats?

Seriously, for someone who thinks themselves logical you're actually trying to bend logic around your opinion, rather than actually being logical and using statistical evidence.

I'm curious, why do you feel the need to argue this pointless tripe back and forth?. Nothing ever comes of it, neither side is going to hammer their point home. If anything, both sides are just going to make themselves look foolish.

It seems like a waste of time and effort to me. Unless you're just trolling, then by all means, have fun.

To be one hundred percent factual, the anti-ending crowd which involves more than just the last 5 minutes has plothole proof, interviewe promises proof, and numerous other analysis of the game AND ending on their side. The pro enders have given nothing but opinions without logical reasoning.

The point is hammered home, this is the denial / optimistic refusal stage.

My friend, you misunderstand me. Yes, you have polls and stastical data. But no one is going to listen to the other side. Thus making all this effort pointless.

If the Pro-Enders were going to change their mind. I think they would have by now.

Same with the Anti-Ender group.

Man, now I'm starting to think of congress. They can't agree on anything either. Except which guy to hate.

Keep in mind, if the Pro enders don't have any statistical or relevant facts on their side they don't even really get considered when it comes to logical analysis.

If one group says the sky is red, has no proof, but sticks to it till the end of time, no one will ever consider their view whatsoever in regards to logistical analysis.

Eh, got me there. But I still think all this arguing is pointless and will go nowhere in the end.

[Jeno_340]

Machazareel wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

Polls. Polls indicate trends. Though many are subject to abuse, IGNs is relatively decent as it was made available to 600,000 people, and it was not possible to vote more than once from the same account. This isn't slam dunk evidence of indisputable fact, but it shows a clear trend, especially when placed beside the results of every other poll about this on the entire intarwebs.

Just thought I'd throw my input into this argument.

MORDIN, please comment on THIS.

I believe that the majority of people feel "meh" about this game. Those are the more casual gamers (the majority of players these days) and they won't go online to take polls and chat on here.

I lump those "meh" people in with the "anti ending" people because my whole point of showing this is to get the ending changed.

I thought that the ending of Mockingjay (3rd book in the Hunger Games series which Im sure you all have heard of by now) was pretty meh. Even though I don't feel strongly about it, I sure as heck would like it if the author decided to change it (make it better). I might even go as far to pay money for a new copy if the new ending is good enough.

That same opinion is probably true for all the people who are "meh" over the endings.

It might get them to actually "like" the endings in which case, they would be more likely to buy dlc and sequels.

The "meh" attitude doesn't land you any future revenue opportunities. You have to get people to like your product before they buy expansions.

[nikki191]

regardless of whether you love hate or are indifferent to the ending. this customer outrage is unprecedented for video games. this is living history people.

honestly what is wrong with having different endings? pick up an recent dvd and look under the special features. how many have alternate endings and no one bats an eyelid

Modifié par nikki191, 26 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Vromrig]

Logical fallacy right there. Conclusions derived from statistical analysis require that statistical analysis be correct. Without proper sampling to ensure diversity, any analysis on the data will be flawed, thus conclusions will be flawed also. It doesn't matter if many flawed analysis lead to one conclusion, they are still flawed, and as such, that conclusion is also.

There's no hard evidence to support that we're a minority, nor is there to support that we're a majority. Any person claiming the opposite is patently wrong.

Allegedly misunderstanding position greatly.

Unsure how to simplify, however.

Logical fallacy right there. Conclusions derived from statistical analysis require that statistical analysis be correct. Without proper sampling to ensure diversity, any analysis on the data will be flawed, thus conclusions will be flawed also. It doesn't matter if many flawed analysis lead to one conclusion, they are still flawed, and as such, that conclusion is also.

There's no hard evidence to support that we're a minority, nor is there to support that we're a majority. Any person claiming the opposite is patently wrong.

Position not specifically that anti-ending constitutes solid majority. If made position seem such, apologize, possibly zeal, possibly misunderstanding.

In any case, one can only make case based on data. If argument is that data is flawed, one must prove flaw. Onus now on pro-ending group to demonstrate that data flawed. Already submitted for peer review, dismissal unacceptable.

In any case, data proves not vocal minority. Suggests, however, vocal majority.

MORDIN, please comment on THIS.

I believe that the majority of
people feel "meh" about this game. Those are the more casual gamers (the
majority of players these days) and they won't go online to take polls
and chat on here.

I lump those "meh" people in with the "anti ending" people because my whole point of showing this is to get the ending changed.

I
thought that the ending of Mockingjay (3rd book in the Hunger Games
series which Im sure you all have heard of by now) was pretty meh. Even
though I don't feel strongly about it, I sure as heck would like it if
the author decided to change it (make it better). I might even go as far
to pay money for a new copy if the new ending is good enough.

That same opinion is probably true for all the people who are "meh" over the endings.

It might get them to actually "like" the endings in which case, they would be more likely to buy dlc and sequels.

The
"meh" attitude doesn't land you any future revenue opportunities. You
have to get people to like your product before they buy expansions.

Not much to say in matter.  Assesment most likely accurate.

Impossible for ending, on own merits, to appeal.  Approval usually derivative of alternate, ulterior motivations.

However, possible for someone to like even worst things.

Afterall, video of man pleasing dolphin on internet.

Modifié par Vromrig, 26 mars 2012 - 12:51 .

[Clayless]

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

[Bourne Endeavor]

Dridengx wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

 Then pro-ending fans have to be the smallest sliver of the pie. If you know anything about sampling, you would probably believe that most consumers are not very fond of the ending. I don't know how many "hated" it but there sure as heck aren't  that many people that like it as much as the ending of 1 and 2. I can count about 10 friends/acquaintances off the top of my head that didn't use a single positive word to describe the ending and only 2 even plan on playing through it again.

Plus, the facts that the price has dropped to $40 in less than two weeks and that Amazon and Origin are offering full refunds are clear indicators that this game is not being recieved well by many consumers.

Reviewers are split on the endings but they can't give a game a low score just based on the ending. Overall, I agree with all of them that Mass Effect 3 is overall an excellent game. It is just ruined by the ending.

Tl;dr An example of a vocal minority would be those that thought that ME2 was a huge downgrade from ME1. Even then, Bioware appeased them by adding a lot more RPG elements to ME3.

Bioware, I guarantee that most people would prefer an Indoctrination ending over clarification of what we currently have. Do it or suffer revenue loss in the future.

Actually we do know how many hated it, 52,000. that isn't very many lol. that's right you don't know anything especially how many liked it but you can't claim people who liked it are smaller than 52k lol.

Your 10 'friends' if they even exist don't mean anything. Amazon and origin always offer refunds. Price drops always happen as well. reviewers are split? hmm 70 plus perfect scores. you can guarantee all you want you don't know anything and there is no proof your little minority out cry will do a damn thing to Bioware sales.

All the crap you are saying was the same crap people like you said about Dragon Age 2. And not only did it sell good, the dlc was decent, and the ending never changed, AND Bioware still made a lot of money on ME3. likewise will again after ME3. History is against you as is logic. research before you make dumb threads atleast

Actually, Dragon Age 2 sold less than half that of its predecessor despite BioWare's feverous attempts to claim it was equally good, or even superior. The cancellation of future DLC is only a further indication DA2 was largely perceived as lackluster.

52,000 may amount to a small number of customers in theory but few games in history have created so much negativity and when over 90% of your vocal fanbase is upset, that speaks volumes. Can you name a single game that has even caused this level of controversy? Fans are normally split on forums however the majority despise the ending. For BioWare to write it off as a small issue is both shortsighted and foolish in the grand scheme of things.

[Vromrig]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

Would be disingenuous.

"Meh" people strengthen need to change it, not reinforce need to maintain.

[Clayless]

Vromrig reply to me please, and not my "meh" one.

Don't ignore it like you're trying to do.

[Vromrig]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig reply to me please, and not my "meh" one.

Don't ignore it like you're trying to do.

Not ignoring.  Getting confrontational, unnecessary.

What point do you expect response to?

[AnsinJung]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

Really, I didn't think "meh" was a positive reaction.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig reply to me please, and not my "meh" one.

Don't ignore it like you're trying to do.

Not ignoring.  Getting confrontational, unnecessary.

What point do you expect response to?

The one where I replied to you previously. 

[Clayless]

AnsinJung wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

Really, I didn't think "meh" was a positive reaction.

Nor do I think it was a reaction of hate.

[ZiegenkonigIII]

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

No one is lumping you in to either specific crowd.  The polling rules take into account neutral parties.

[Vromrig]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig reply to me please, and not my "meh" one.

Don't ignore it like you're trying to do.

Not ignoring.  Getting confrontational, unnecessary.

What point do you expect response to?

The one where I replied to you previously. 

Already did respond.  Apparently, unsatisfied unless using "quotes".

Any previous response would be sufficient.  Do not need to address you specifically.

[Swisspease]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

And if one was to take a proper poll then the "meh" people would be put into their own category. As I said earlier this is not a two party race. The majority might be the "meh" party.

[GigaTheToast]

Angry troll VS Mordin Solus

This is officially the best thread ever.

[Clayless]

No Vromrig, you have not responded to this.

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong. If you make a claim that the majority of people hate the ending, the burden of proof is on you. Saying there's no data that suggests a majority of people liked the ending, therefore it's "impossible" to mount an argument that it's only the minority that disproves, isn't just illogical, it's completely ridiculous.

Like seriously start using some actual logic.

Continuing to become libelous. Argument posed that disapproval not vocal minority. Argument posed by those opposed to anti-ending movement constitute "vocal minority".

When observing data, shown to be inconsistent. Facts do not line up.

Upon further review, only arguable point that majority of given data. Simple fact.

All trends indicate majority disapproval. Point remains, however, that primary argument is against notion of "vocal minority".

Data proves this claim to be false, suggesting majority disapproval.

If argument that "who knows", then point moot, invalid.

Can only go by presented data. Presented data speaks against "vocal minority".

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

[XJ347]

ThePrestige10 wrote...

I have viewed a lot of threads about this topic. And one thing always stood out: You are pretty vocal in all of those threads. And in those threads you are also the minority. Are you noticing something?

I have nothing against you. And I don't want to displease you. But I think you are actually the vocal minority here.

LOL where is your proof more people like the ending than dislike it??

We show that if 52 THOUSAND people are so upset they show up in mass to biowares message boards then you know something is wrong. The people who show up are a percentage of the whole, most gamers are lazy and while they may want a new ending they do not want to put in the effort to complain.

The people who say the ending is good are, Proffesional critics who generally have monentary contections with EA and less than a thousand people.

True their are over a million owners to ME3 but just becuase people choose to not jump into the fray and complain does not mean that they support the ending, just like we dont know if they don't support the ending.

My point is that if you assume that the vocal represent a semi proportional to the polulation then yes we are the majority, though we do know for certain.

Either way, if you take away the silient owners then we are STILL larger of a minority than you.
52k > 1k

Lets be real you know we are a semi porportional representation of the whole.

[Vromrig]

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

As said, already addressed. Pride getting in way of arguing. Points not specific enough to warrant specific consideration.

Argument consistently made on general level. Should be intelligent enough to understand that if addressed specifically, referring to points addressed.

In any case, argument beginning to go around in circles. Point remains data available does not accept that disapproval is vocal minority. Conclusively demonstrates not vocal minority, suggests majority.

If you could not see this in previous posts, then becoming too passionate. Should take break.

Good for heart.

[BWGungan]

Indeed. Even if they don't hate the ending to the point where it ruins the game or series for them, everyone I talk too still thinks it was a ****ass ending.

[Janus382]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

AnsinJung wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

Really, I didn't think "meh" was a positive reaction.

Nor do I think it was a reaction of hate.

"Meh"... or "Indifferent"... I would divide into two camps: Those who would welcome a change in the ending (since their reaction was not positive, and we all want to react positively), and those who truly don't care.  

BW of course, would want all those "Meh" fans to react positively, therefore it be in their best interest to change it, in that regard.  Changing it would benefit "Meh" fans, with no loss, while not changing it would present no benefit and no loss.

Therefore, one could likely lump them in with a desire to change the ending, as they count as customers that could potentially be satisfied ones.

Modifié par Janus382, 26 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[Jeno_340]

Vromrig wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Lumping the "meh" people with the people who hated it is absurd. I could lump them with the people who liked it.

Would be disingenuous.

"Meh" people strengthen need to change it, not reinforce need to maintain.

EXACTLY! All of your arguments are pretty much for nothing if the majority of people are "meh". Indifference isn't positive in a sold product. This just shows that Bioware should change their ending even more. As long as we know that "meh" people are the majority, and that anti endings people outnumber the proendings people, what more proof do we need that the ending should be changed?

[DeadPoolX]

ZiegenkonigIII wrote...

DeadPoolMK wrote...

Jeno_340 wrote...

Mixorz wrote...

What is the Facebook at? 75k? Even if the game only sold 200k copies you would still be a minority. And I'm willing to bet many of those likes and poll votes are alt accounts and friends who don't play games but have been told to like the page.

Sorry, you are a minority.

Again, another person who doesn't understand polling and sampling. You need to understand that the majority of people ARE NOT going to go online and take a poll or like a FB page to show if they loved/hated the ending.

The fact that the majority of the people that did participate in this stuff DISLIKED the ending should show a clear indication that the ending was "nothing spectacular". Those who utterly hated it are definitely a minority but those that loved it are an even smaller minority.

People that feel "meh" should count towards the "dislike" crowd. In a AAA game like Mass Effect, the 3rd ending should be just as good or better than the first two.

So combining the "meh" people with those who disliked the ending, and those who utterly hated it....they are clearly the majortiy.

Why is this info important? If the majority don't particularly ENJOY the ending (like they did in ME1 and 2), then there is incentive to change the ending.

That is my whole point. Most people DON"T care for it. You SHOULD change it.

I didn't love or hate the ending, so I don't fit into either category.  I don't want to lumped into the "hate it" crowd any more than I want to belong to the "love it" group. 

No one is lumping you in to either specific crowd.  The polling rules take into account neutral parties.

Not according to some people, who seem to think that unless I actively like the endings, I must be siding with the retaker crowd. 

Want to know how I feel about the ending?  Here: I don't care. 

I'm content with the ending.  If it gets changed or new endings are added, fine, but it doesn't make a difference to me if they suddenly give us 100 new endings or tell everyone on the BSN to "STFU." 

Needless to say, this is why I refuse to be lumped into either category.  In fact, by suggesting that I (and others like me) take a side or be automatically given one, you are taking away our freedom to choose.  Isn't that what the Retake movement is supposedly about?  How the endings didn't give enough choice and take into account our decisions?

So don't be hypocritical.  Let those who simply don't care (like me) remain in our group, if even such a group is necessary. 

Oh and someone mentioned earlier that needing 51% for a majority is ridiculous because several presidents have won without the popular vote.  To whoever said that, I must reply: you don't know how the US selects presidents.  It's never awarded the presidency based on popular vote alone.  The Electoral College is how the president is chosen.

Some people think the Electoral College is useless, outdated or simply ineffective.  That's fine, but doesn't change my point.  Popular vote does not select presidents.

[Clayless]

Vromrig wrote...

Wrong again. I have pointed out there is no evidence that shows the people who hate the ending are the majority.

You know this is true, yet you keep on trying to twist it into me claiming that the end haters are the minority, which evidence does show, but my first claim was no side can say they're the majority because there is nothing that shows one side or the other being the majority.

As said, already addressed. Pride getting in way of arguing. Points not specific enough to warrant specific consideration.

Argument consistently made on general level. Should be intelligent enough to understand that if addressed specifically, referring to points addressed.

In any case, argument beginning to go around in circles. Point remains data available does not accept that disapproval is vocal minority. Conclusively demonstrates not vocal minority, suggests majority.

If you could not see this in previous posts, then becoming too passionate. Should take break.

Good for heart.

Again, the burden of proof is on you. You are making an assumption based on polls where only a minority of people have voted.

I do not have to disprove that someone is the majority, it is up to the person making the claim that they are the majority to prove they are actually the majority, and aren't actually making an assumption that they are the majority based on a poll that only takes in a minority of people that own the game.

[ryuasiu]

Actually...check the twitter responses. Majority like it, below that are people that are ok with it, then the minority is people that dont like it.