195 réponses à ce sujet

[durasteel]

It is space magic because something that is impossible according to the basic laws of reality as we know then is accomplished by a bright flash of colorful light and some noise. This flash of magic light brings peace to the entire galaxy except for the Normandy, which it seems to destroy. Afterwards, the Normandy lands with only minor damage... this is also space magic.

It isn't space magic because we don't know how it happened, it is space magic because it makes no damn sense at all.

[o Ventus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Obviously they wouldn't take it that far.  They were actually indoctrinating governments on Earth to try and order the resistance to stand down and using them to gather people up to harvest.

Where was this ever stated?

Or are you just making things up?

Diana Allers

Or it might have been an overheard conversation or broadcast on the Citadel, I don't quite remember which...

Find it then.

I can't, I don't have any access to the game for the next week.  So can you tell me where you know the Reapers don't recycle the Husk organs?

Like I said, the codex.

As I don't have access to my game right now, I'll snag THIS instead.

[tetrisblock4x1]

SeventyOne wrote...

By the way this thread is spoiler heavy. It should probably move to the spoiler section
But the way this thing works bothers me too.
It is like this beam could assimilate Synths and Orgs, right? So what about animals, how it will bypass those organic forms? Or it will "synthesize" them too? (Cat Reapers? lol)
And how it will seek the organic candidates for the joining?
And this beam will travel only to systems with mass relays? What about systems with organic life (colonies, primitive organic life forms, mining/science stations etc.) without relays, how it will travel there?
And why, by the way, the leader of the Reapers ignored the Synthesis option in the first place, and chose to do the elimination cycles? Assuming that the Reapers have the technology to build this instrument, it will be easier for them to assimilate instead of killing the organics, with only rebuilding all that is destroyed after.

The more i think about this possibility, the more i agree with those calling out for space magic.
I hope i ll get a clarification on this.

Primative life have primative DNA. We have more chromosomes (44 if I recall correctly) now than we did thousands of years ago. Can't answer the rest, though much of that isn't meant to be comprehensible I think... part of the mystery of the universe which was a main theme of ME1.

[Anaki86]

durasteel wrote...

It is space magic because something that is impossible according to the basic laws of reality as we know then is accomplished by a bright flash of colorful light and some noise. This flash of magic light brings peace to the entire galaxy except for the Normandy, which it seems to destroy. Afterwards, the Normandy lands with only minor damage... this is also space magic.

It isn't space magic because we don't know how it happened, it is space magic because it makes no damn sense at all.

Essentially what it's doing is changing the basic laws of reality, a feat beyond our level of scientific comprehension, but not out of the realm of possibility. Besides you never say never with sci-fi.

As for the Normandy, I don't think it was the only ship affected negatively. Just the only one the game showed.  

[Heimdall]

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Obviously they wouldn't take it that far.  They were actually indoctrinating governments on Earth to try and order the resistance to stand down and using them to gather people up to harvest.

Where was this ever stated?

Or are you just making things up?

Diana Allers

Or it might have been an overheard conversation or broadcast on the Citadel, I don't quite remember which...

Find it then.

I can't, I don't have any access to the game for the next week.  So can you tell me where you know the Reapers don't recycle the Husk organs?

Like I said, the codex.

As I don't have access to my game right now, I'll snag THIS instead.

You didn't say codex but alright... I don't see anything in there that proves me wrong, or rules out my idea.  There still might be salvagable material in Husks.  Again though, not the point.

[SeventyOne]

Anaki86 wrote...

This whole "Space Magic" thing is annoying. We don't know how the Crucible works, but it is explained that it uses Dark Matter in some way. Dark Matter is essential in structure forming and galaxy evolution. Basically the crucible uses science that is beyond even the comprehension of Mass Effect's civilization. What is magic but science that we don't understand? Besides all Sci-Fi requires a certain suspension of disbelief.

Ok i ll buy this (more rent than buy). So how come they started building something that they do not know how and if it works? Out of desperation? Probably, but it is still something the player swallows in order to follow the story through.
But this logic has flaws too.
"Hey, we ve found something that the Prothies were doin' but we dont know exactly what it does. We dont know how it works either. It reads "Destroy the Reapers thingy". Lets build it, and cross our fingers, boys."
This is not a sound military logic, especialy if one is at war. 
ME story so far never used this type of plot device to be unfolded, plus the whole dark energy thing is still a plot on itself and it was abandoned. The whole mess starts from this moment, i guess.

[Heimdall]

SeventyOne wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

This whole "Space Magic" thing is annoying. We don't know how the Crucible works, but it is explained that it uses Dark Matter in some way. Dark Matter is essential in structure forming and galaxy evolution. Basically the crucible uses science that is beyond even the comprehension of Mass Effect's civilization. What is magic but science that we don't understand? Besides all Sci-Fi requires a certain suspension of disbelief.

Ok i ll buy this (more rent than buy). So how come they started building something that they do not know how and if it works? Out of desperation? Probably, but it is still something the player swallows in order to follow the story through.
But this logic has flaws too.
"Hey, we ve found something that the Prothies were doin' but we dont know exactly what it does. We dont know how it works either. It reads "Destroy the Reapers thingy". Lets build it, and cross our fingers, boys."
This is not a sound military logic, especialy if one is at war. 
ME story so far never used this type of plot device to be unfolded, plus the whole dark energy thing is still a plot on itself and it was abandoned. The whole mess starts from this moment, i guess.

The dark energy plot was started and abandoned in ME2.    Considering it was believed the defeating the Reapers conventionally was impossible and Prothean technology had never steered them wrong before, it makes a sort of sense.

[Anaki86]

SeventyOne wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

This whole "Space Magic" thing is annoying. We don't know how the Crucible works, but it is explained that it uses Dark Matter in some way. Dark Matter is essential in structure forming and galaxy evolution. Basically the crucible uses science that is beyond even the comprehension of Mass Effect's civilization. What is magic but science that we don't understand? Besides all Sci-Fi requires a certain suspension of disbelief.

Ok i ll buy this (more rent than buy). So how come they started building something that they do not know how and if it works? Out of desperation? Probably, but it is still something the player swallows in order to follow the story through.
But this logic has flaws too.
"Hey, we ve found something that the Prothies were doin' but we dont know exactly what it does. We dont know how it works either. It reads "Destroy the Reapers thingy". Lets build it, and cross our fingers, boys."
This is not a sound military logic, especialy if one is at war. 
ME story so far never used this type of plot device to be unfolded, plus the whole dark energy thing is still a plot on itself and it was abandoned. The whole mess starts from this moment, i guess.

Yeah, I see what you are saying. The way it came across to me was that with the Reapers showing up and beginning their galaxy wide extermination (and conventional fighting just being a quick way to death) they were at the end of their rope and decided to make the damn thing and hope it worked. I mean, hell, it was a common issue through out the game that they were building this thing but were frightened about what it actually did. I'm pretty sure Hackett admitted that it freaked him out at one point. 

[Heimdall]

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Obviously they wouldn't take it that far.  They were actually indoctrinating governments on Earth to try and order the resistance to stand down and using them to gather people up to harvest.

Where was this ever stated?

Or are you just making things up?

Diana Allers

Or it might have been an overheard conversation or broadcast on the Citadel, I don't quite remember which...

Find it then.

I can't, I don't have any access to the game for the next week.  So can you tell me where you know the Reapers don't recycle the Husk organs?

Like I said, the codex.

As I don't have access to my game right now, I'll snag THIS instead.

Notably the Maurader codex entry describes them harvested turians

[SeventyOne]

@ Lord Aesir

Might be this way but still my feeling on this is that is a terrible Mcguffin. Maybe because is not explained properly (and not only that).

[Heimdall]

SeventyOne wrote...

@ Lord Aesir

Might be this way but still my feeling on this is that is a terrible Mcguffin. Maybe because is not explained properly (and not only that).

A Mcguffin is a device that serves no other purpose than to drive the plot, usually through being sought.  It can be replaced with any other item and not change the plot as long as it is still soght after.  The Crucible is a device for stopping the Reapers and integral to the plot.  It technically does not fit the definition of a Mcguffin.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Here's my question: if the precursors have a device capable of intelligently re-configuring matter in the galaxy on a subatomic level, don't they have better things to do than make synthetics to kill organics so organics don't get killed by synthetics?

[Heimdall]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Here's my question: if the precursors have a device capable of intelligently re-configuring matter in the galaxy on a subatomic level, don't they have better things to do than make synthetics to kill organics so organics don't get killed by synthetics?

Are you trolling?

[SeventyOne]

@ Lord Aesir

Erase McGuffin then. It is still a terrible plot device for the reason i ve mentioned before. Opinion only.

[Anaki86]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Here's my question: if the precursors have a device capable of intelligently re-configuring matter in the galaxy on a subatomic level, don't they have better things to do than make synthetics to kill organics so organics don't get killed by synthetics?

Well the device was created over the course of many cycles, so no.

And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

[Heimdall]

Anaki86 wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Here's my question: if the precursors have a device capable of intelligently re-configuring matter in the galaxy on a subatomic level, don't they have better things to do than make synthetics to kill organics so organics don't get killed by synthetics?

Well the device was created over the course of many cycles, so no.

And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

I think you mean that they leave the young races, likr the Yagh in this cycle.

[EHondaMashButton]

Anaki86 wrote...
And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

But the catalyst/reapers can indoctrinate/destroy synthetics.  And they use geth to kill organics.

This is like forest rangers using arsonists to burn down a nearby hotel to stop campers from potentially starting forest fires, when they clearly have helicopters with fire extinguishers.

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 26 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[Iconoclaste]

It is difficult to picture such a powerful design as the "Reapers system" to not being able to do the very things that make evolution so "dangerous" to them : adaptation and evolution. It only seems to do so in the very end, by offering the "synthesis" choice.

[Anaki86]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...
And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

But the catalyst/reapers can indoctrinate/destroy synthetics.  And they use geth to kill organics.

This is like forest rangers using arsonists to burn down a nearby hotel to stop campers from potentially starting forest fires, when they clearly have helicopters with fire extinguishers.

Yes, exactly. Just like they did with all of the current races in the last cycle.

[o Ventus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Notably the Maurader codex entry describes them harvested turians

Error in the writing then. "Harvesting" is made clear as the Reapers taking people and converting them to space-goo.

[Heimdall]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...
And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

But the catalyst/reapers can indoctrinate/destroy synthetics.  And they use geth to kill organics.

This is like forest rangers using arsonists to burn down a nearby hotel to stop campers from potentially starting forest fires, when they clearly have helicopters with fire extinguishers.

That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

[Heimdall]

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Notably the Maurader codex entry describes them harvested turians

Error in the writing then. "Harvesting" is made clear as the Reapers taking people and converting them to space-goo.

Then perhaps they were only partially harvested.

[Anaki86]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...
And that circular explantation is not quite the one that the Catalyst gave. They cull the advanced civilizations (harvest some to be cataloged and destroy the rest) so that they don't create advanced synthetics that would wipe out all the organics. Even the young races. The Reapers are, in fact, keeping the galaxy in the hands of organics.

But the catalyst/reapers can indoctrinate/destroy synthetics.  And they use geth to kill organics.

This is like forest rangers using arsonists to burn down a nearby hotel to stop campers from potentially starting forest fires, when they clearly have helicopters with fire extinguishers.

First off I want to say that I love your arson simile. It made me smile.


If you're implying that they can just destroy the synthetics or indoctrinate them while leaving the organics alone then I have to disagree completely. If they left the organics at that level of scientific sofistication than they could just create more synthetics and if the Reapers destroy those then they would create more so on and so forth. They had to wipe out the advanced civilizations to keep the younger races safe.

And yes, the Reapers do use the Geth to kill organics. Why wouldn't they? The Geth are an effective tool to use against them.

[EHondaMashButton]

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.

Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

[Iconoclaste]

Synthesis = Space magic...

We do not know where the Crucible originates from, we only know its design has been passed on and enriched by successive civilisations through many 50 000 years "cycles". The Citadel originates from the Reapers, and is a component of "The Catalyst's Solution", but also a component of the final "tool" to take down the Reapers, or at least to alter their impact on the Galaxy. So, the successive "designers" of the "Crucible" must have known how it would interact with the "Citadel" once docked with it (on top of a secret control area no other bio had seen before, mind you...), and from what I understood, nobody actually knew exactly the purpose and functioning of the Citadel. Nevertheless, once the thing "attached" to the Citadel, it became an assembly capable of modifying organisms and synthetics in the entire known galaxy, with pinpoint accuracy, with apparently no margin of error.
We can still buy that, with imagination. The ancients could have known about the Reapers' signals carried through mass relays, and the possibilities it offered.

This is an incredible feat of technological achievement. Whoever designed that thing, and threw it forward in time for others to complete not even knowing what they were doing, surely had the power to conceive less dramatic "weapons" that could have destroyed many Reapers in more conventional ways. If we compare the technology behind the Crucible to the weapons used contemporarily in Mass Effect 3, it looks like the ancient races knew a lot more than the actual or even the Protheans, but still got wiped by the Reapers, even if we see them fighting in ME3 "on foot" with soldiers and tanks and spaceships. So, they had enough understanding of "Reaper tech" to design the Crucible to work in conjunction with the Citadel to accomplish "space magic", but not enough to create ordinary weapons able to destroy Reapers on a one-on-one basis. Hey, even Shepard took a few down with conventional weaponry, so what did the ancient super-advanced races miss? I doubt any super-advanced civilisation would simply build a device like the Crucible without gaining any scientific edge in the process, allowing them to develop weaponry capable of resisting more efficiently to the Reapers, while they design their super-ultimate solution. They all went "short of time", even the Protheans with all the work done beforehand, and we can hardly put that in perspective with the "actual" races of ME3 holding the Reapers at bay with conventional weaponry while still having time to complete the crucible. That is just pushing luck against the odds, one more time.

But let's stay with the ancient races who knew all the functions of the Citadel and its special "powers", to be transmitted through the mass relays to the rest of the galaxy. Let's not address the fact that only their "greatest achievement" in warfare tech against the Reapers was miraculously found on Mars, but not even a few plans for cannons or such. How could they ever foresee that the fruits of evolution their "Crucible+Citadel" would eventually turn into "borgs" any 50 000 years or more ahead would just be compatible to such a thing? Improbable and risky, for the least. The Catalyst-Child would then be the one who actually has the knowledge to accomplish that, now that the "Crucible" has opened this new "solution" to him. So, in the few minutes spanning his lecturing of Shepard on the fate of the universe he holds in his hands, the Catalyst designs "space-magic" or whatever, to be ready for release by Shepard in the following moments.

If the Catalyst had such knowledge beforehand about "synthesis" of biologics that could easily be adapted to any kind of "signal" going through the galaxy, it then had some "adaptation capability". Even EDI or the Geth seemed to "adapt" to events in their environment, and they are just "casual" machines. I guess reasonable to believe that the Reapers", who are well beyond the Protheans, who are well beyond actual ME3 races, should know a bit about the workings of biology, evolution and adaptation. Sounds correct. But how come they did not seem to apply this knowledge to themselves throughout the ages? If anyone was to design an automated system able to "counter" evolution by stopping it every 50 000 years, I think the least to be conceived would be a way for the system to "adapt" itself, and to "learn" along the process, so it never gets outclassed by opponents. But clearly, if it would have done so, the "Crucible" might just not have worked in conjunction with the Citadel. If by definition "advanced" means "able to adapt", then the Reapers conventional war tactics put them at great risk of failure, as can be seen with even not-so-advanced races in ME3.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 26 mars 2012 - 03:42 .