195 réponses à ce sujet

[d.nichols]

There are a lot of ways you can argue the endings writing was... uh... there?

But calling the synthesis ending anything coherent isn't a logical idea (like the synthesis ending). It's space magic, it is unexplained and unapologetic.

[Anaki86]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

[EHondaMashButton]

Anaki86 wrote...
First off I want to say that I love your arson simile. It made me smile.

If you're implying that they can just destroy the synthetics or indoctrinate them while leaving the organics alone then I have to disagree completely. If they left the organics at that level of scientific sofistication than they could just create more synthetics and if the Reapers destroy those then they would create more so on and so forth. They had to wipe out the advanced civilizations to keep the younger races safe.

And yes, the Reapers do use the Geth to kill organics. Why wouldn't they? The Geth are an effective tool to use against them.

See above.  If your 8 year old kid is playing with matches that could burn your house down and kill your baby and your toddler, you don't kill your 8 year old. You show him how dangerous fire is, take away his matches every time you catch him with them, and watch your baby more closely and install more smoke detectors.  If you were around more often, you wouldn't have to take such drastic measures.

edit.  I'm saying the reapers can obviously control synthetics. So no need to kill organics.  To keep the analogy going, its like if I could control fire with my mind, I wouldn't need to be so worried about my kid starting one.

Modifié par EHondaMashButton, 26 mars 2012 - 03:45 .

[InvincibleHero]

Lord Aesir wrote...

My theory is that the green wave actually contained nanobots that altered organic and synthetic life on the most basic of levels. Just me...

Except energy cannot be converted to matter. I could offer a suggestion the relays were disassembled into nanobots that comprised the structure by the green energy in a controlled manner that sent a critical mass through each relay which could be self-replicating in a normal fashion.

[o Ventus]

Anaki86 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

You're acting as if the organics (Who are smart enough to create a fully feeling AI entity) are retarded and don't learn from their own mistakes.

>Organics create AI
>Reapers come in, kill AI
>"Look man, don't be makin' those damned AI's now, ya hear?"

[o Ventus]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My theory is that the green wave actually contained nanobots that altered organic and synthetic life on the most basic of levels. Just me...

Except energy cannot be converted to matter. I could offer a suggestion the relays were disassembled into nanobots that comprised the structure by the green energy in a controlled manner that sent a critical mass through each relay which could be self-replicating in a normal fashion.

The relays visibly exploded. Like, into fragments and a big freaking shockwave.

[Heimdall]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.

Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

But species have time to prosper and flourish instead of constantly having Reapers come in to baby sit them.  They also run the risk of these species matching the Reapers technologically and creating synthetics the Reapers could not dominate.  Keeping them within acceptable technological levels would require constant rulership.  A long harvesting and cycle allows the galaxy to stay in the hands of organics.  Die free or live in slavery, I'd say the Reapers might have the more humane solution.

[Anaki86]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...
First off I want to say that I love your arson simile. It made me smile.

If you're implying that they can just destroy the synthetics or indoctrinate them while leaving the organics alone then I have to disagree completely. If they left the organics at that level of scientific sofistication than they could just create more synthetics and if the Reapers destroy those then they would create more so on and so forth. They had to wipe out the advanced civilizations to keep the younger races safe.

And yes, the Reapers do use the Geth to kill organics. Why wouldn't they? The Geth are an effective tool to use against them.

See above.  If your 8 year old kid is playing with matches that could burn your house down and kill your baby and your toddler, you don't kill your 8 year old. You show him how dangerous fire is, take away his matches every time you catch him with them, and watch your baby more closely and install more smoke detectors.  If you were around more often, you wouldn't have to take such drastic measures.

edit.  I'm saying the reapers can obviously control synthetics. So no need to kill organics.  To keep the analogy going, its like if I could control fire with my mind, I wouldn't need to be so worried about my kid starting one.

I agree with that. You wouldn't kill your 8 year old. However, you cannot compare a single 8 year old to an entire galactic civilization. Sure you could teach them but give them another few thousand years and you have a completely different 8 year old (to use your analogy).  

[Heimdall]

o Ventus wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

You're acting as if the organics (Who are smart enough to create a fully feeling AI entity) are retarded and don't learn from their own mistakes.

>Organics create AI
>Reapers come in, kill AI
>"Look man, don't be makin' those damned AI's now, ya hear?"

They don't.  Look what happened to the quarians, and now we have EDI walking around...  The alliance was researching AI development long before that...

[Heimdall]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My theory is that the green wave actually contained nanobots that altered organic and synthetic life on the most basic of levels. Just me...

Except energy cannot be converted to matter. I could offer a suggestion the relays were disassembled into nanobots that comprised the structure by the green energy in a controlled manner that sent a critical mass through each relay which could be self-replicating in a normal fashion.

Unless it isn't energy at all, but a cloud of glowing nanobots!

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 26 mars 2012 - 03:52 .

[Anaki86]

o Ventus wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

You're acting as if the organics (Who are smart enough to create a fully feeling AI entity) are retarded and don't learn from their own mistakes.

>Organics create AI
>Reapers come in, kill AI
>"Look man, don't be makin' those damned AI's now, ya hear?"

That wouldn't stop them from creating synthetics. I mean it probably would in the immediate future, but a few thousand years down the road they will be at it again.

[Heimdall]

Anaki86 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

You're acting as if the organics (Who are smart enough to create a fully feeling AI entity) are retarded and don't learn from their own mistakes.

>Organics create AI
>Reapers come in, kill AI
>"Look man, don't be makin' those damned AI's now, ya hear?"

That wouldn't stop them from creating synthetics. I mean it probably would in the immediate future, but a few thousand years down the road they will be at it again.

A few thousand?  They'd start again in a few centuries...

[Iconoclaste]

Galactic-wide "contamination" from the "synthesis" solution would require to adapt to anything it encounters, from atmospheric and geomagnetic characteristics of various planets and neighboring stars to the diversity of all possible lifeforms to be affected. How can the Reapers know all of that, (or for that case, any of the "ancient races" that designed the Crucible) and yet be so vulnerable to conventional weaponry attacks?

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 26 mars 2012 - 03:54 .

[o Ventus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

They don't.  Look what happened to the quarians, and now we have EDI walking around...  The alliance was researching AI development long before that...

Except, with the exception of the geth, no one else in our cycle has created a true AI. Even EDI had to be deliberately set free from her programming constraints. She wasn't made that way at first.

Modifié par o Ventus, 26 mars 2012 - 03:54 .

[EHondaMashButton]

Lord Aesir wrote...
But species have time to prosper and flourish instead of constantly having Reapers come in to baby sit them.  They also run the risk of these species matching the Reapers technologically and creating synthetics the Reapers could not dominate.  Keeping them within acceptable technological levels would require constant rulership.  A long harvesting and cycle allows the galaxy to stay in the hands of organics.  Die free or live in slavery, I'd say the Reapers might have the more humane solution.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, if given the option, I'd rather live with a galactic babysitter with the one rule of not creating A.I.,  than be indoctrinated and/or die a horrible death, and/or be liquified for reaper parts.

[Anaki86]

d.nichols wrote...

There are a lot of ways you can argue the endings writing was... uh... there?

But calling the synthesis ending anything coherent isn't a logical idea (like the synthesis ending). It's space magic, it is unexplained and unapologetic.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but let me try again.

Clarke's Third law

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Synthesis is simply advanced science.  

[Heimdall]

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

They don't.  Look what happened to the quarians, and now we have EDI walking around...  The alliance was researching AI development long before that...

Except, with the exception of the geth, no one else in our cycle has created a true AI. Even EDI had to be deliberately set free from her programming constraints. She wasn't made that way at first.

It needn't be a deliberate effort.  Need I bring up the near disaster of the Overlord project?  Technological appocolypse?

[Anaki86]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
That analogy doesn't really work.  The worry is that synthetics inevitably turn on organics given time and organics inevitably create synthetics.  Destroying the synthetics does not solve the problem because the organics will inevitably create new ones.  So the only we to prevent the genocide of organic life is to harvest life into an immortal form and leave room for the young species to develope.

Makes no sense.  Leaving the young species to develop.... who inevitably create new ones too in 50k years, and you're right back where you started.

Other options, (and why the whole rationale/ending falls apart)
-Control the synthetics (which the reapers can already do)
-Destroy the synthetics (which the reapers can already do but seem to like to use them against us instead)
-Patrol more frequently than 50k years and only wipe out intelligent A.I.
-Control the synthetics and use them to scare us from ever creating A.I.



Coming back to clear out all synthetics every 50k years is no different than coming back to clear out advanced organics every 50k years, and its a helluva lot more humane.

That gives the younger races time to live and grow and when they become a threat to themselves and the galaxy they get reaped. 

It's not control synthetics. It's control the Reapers. Completely different.

They would becoming back a lot more often than every 50k to reap synthetics. In fact if that were the case they should just stay in the galaxy.

You're acting as if the organics (Who are smart enough to create a fully feeling AI entity) are retarded and don't learn from their own mistakes.

>Organics create AI
>Reapers come in, kill AI
>"Look man, don't be makin' those damned AI's now, ya hear?"

That wouldn't stop them from creating synthetics. I mean it probably would in the immediate future, but a few thousand years down the road they will be at it again.

A few thousand?  They'd start again in a few centuries...

Agreed. I was just giving them the benefit of the doubt. 

[InvincibleHero]

o Ventus wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My theory is that the green wave actually contained nanobots that altered organic and synthetic life on the most basic of levels. Just me...

Except energy cannot be converted to matter. I could offer a suggestion the relays were disassembled into nanobots that comprised the structure by the green energy in a controlled manner that sent a critical mass through each relay which could be self-replicating in a normal fashion.

The relays visibly exploded. Like, into fragments and a big freaking shockwave.

It was quite apparent that each relay activated and sent to the next before any final destruction. My scenario would account for that though Lord Aesir provided the crux of the idea.

[Anaki86]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
But species have time to prosper and flourish instead of constantly having Reapers come in to baby sit them.  They also run the risk of these species matching the Reapers technologically and creating synthetics the Reapers could not dominate.  Keeping them within acceptable technological levels would require constant rulership.  A long harvesting and cycle allows the galaxy to stay in the hands of organics.  Die free or live in slavery, I'd say the Reapers might have the more humane solution.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, if given the option, I'd rather live with a galactic babysitter with the one rule of not creating A.I.,  than be indoctrinated and/or die a horrible death, and/or be liquified for reaper parts.

I think many of us would agree to that. The Destroy option allows for just a senario.

[EHondaMashButton]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Anaki86 wrote...

That wouldn't stop them from creating synthetics. I mean it probably would in the immediate future, but a few thousand years down the road they will be at it again.

A few thousand?  They'd start again in a few centuries...

Reapers are organic minds uploaded into synthetic bodies.  How does time even matter. 

[o Ventus]

Lord Aesir wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

They don't.  Look what happened to the quarians, and now we have EDI walking around...  The alliance was researching AI development long before that...

Except, with the exception of the geth, no one else in our cycle has created a true AI. Even EDI had to be deliberately set free from her programming constraints. She wasn't made that way at first.

It needn't be a deliberate effort.  Need I bring up the near disaster of the Overlord project?  Technological appocolypse?

Which was a deliberate effort...

Again, everyone here is acting as if people who are scientifically brilliant, are retarded.

[Heimdall]

EHondaMashButton wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...
But species have time to prosper and flourish instead of constantly having Reapers come in to baby sit them.  They also run the risk of these species matching the Reapers technologically and creating synthetics the Reapers could not dominate.  Keeping them within acceptable technological levels would require constant rulership.  A long harvesting and cycle allows the galaxy to stay in the hands of organics.  Die free or live in slavery, I'd say the Reapers might have the more humane solution.

I think I speak for everyone when I say, if given the option, I'd rather live with a galactic babysitter with the one rule of not creating A.I.,  than be indoctrinated and/or die a horrible death, and/or be liquified for reaper parts.

The rule isn't no AI, it's no technological advancement.  Because unless they indoctrinated everyone there would always be rogue factions and the only way to stay dominant is to retain technological superiority.  Unless they indoctrinate everyone, you're looking at a situation of constant war between the Reapers and freedom fighters.

From the Reaper's perspective, it's much simpler to just preserve the species and allow the new ones to develope on their own.  It also fulfills the goal of protecting organics by allowing them liberty.

[InvincibleHero]

The only question I have is how adding organics to synthetics works. They gain no benefit to being compromised by the frailties of flesh. Maybe they just got emotions and an organic thought process ie true sentience.

[o Ventus]

InvincibleHero wrote...

The only question I have is how adding organics to synthetics works. They gain no benefit to being compromised by the frailties of flesh. Maybe they just got emotions and an organic thought process ie true sentience.

Except the Catalyst explicitly says you're creating a "new DNA".

IE, you're creating a new biological organism.

Even though synthetics don't have DNA to synthesize...