695 réponses à ce sujet

[Lugaidster]

Flextt wrote...

I still can't get over the simplest solution: Just kill all synthetics. The Reapers could have come AND gone unseen into the Perseus Veil, kill one of the most feared species of our cycle and prevented a singularity for now. But then, even their current solution is only temporary.

That doesn't put brakes on the rest of the galactic society. It works only on a case by case. It could've worked in this case, but then again, there's EDI. And who knows where else there's another AI. It would require active monitoring revealing their true purpose at some point and allowing organics to prepare in case the reapers ever show up again, defeating their ultimate goal by allowing you to counter them. 

Obviously their solution isn't perfect as evidenced by the Catalyst when he sees you and states that his solution won't work again. 

[Lugaidster]

Luzarius wrote...



This picture doesn't acknowledge the difference between harvesting advanced civilizations and leaving early primitve civilizations alone.

(Obviously whoever made this picture didn't play the game or didn't pay attention to detail).

Luzarius
www.twitch.tv/luzarius
"no death ruleset"

Exactly, thus creating the illusion that there's circular reasoning when there's not.

[Monochrome Wench]

Overlord was not a new AI. It was Geth + the mind of an Autistic human. It looked like an AI because Cerberus lied through its teeth NOT to tell you what was really going on there.

[babies8mydingo]

(a) Organic civilizations will eventually create synthetics
( The created will always rebel against their creators wiping *all* organic life in the process.

From then, he elaborates that this poses a problem, which becomes apparent because of the second premise, thus, he presents his solution:

© The reapers will come every so often to harvest and store advanced civilizations in reaper form leaving primitive organics alone.

Haven't read through the thread so this may have already been addressed, but for it to be meaningful both a and b have to be verifyible. I understand that you are trying to establish that the logic as internally consistent, but it's not an abstract problem, it's an extrapolation by the Star Child based on his observed galaxy. Because of this points a and b can be established as false using outside evidence. (a) Obviously, has been observed multiple times and so is likely, however, ( logically has never occured.

If ( had occured then either there would have been no continuation of organic life, or it was able to recover regardless.

So purely on a logic basis it doesn't work, because b is necessarily conjecture.

[Artoz96]

Monochrome Wench wrote...

Overlord was not a new AI. It was Geth + the mind of an Autistic human. It looked like an AI because Cerberus lied through its teeth NOT to tell you what was really going on there.

Does it change anything? My point is that advance civilization almost inevitably will create AI. It is impossible to control every group of scientists in the Galaxy only if not... indoctrinate them.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Lugaidster wrote...


Again, I'm not discussing that the argument the Catalyst proposes is sound, as that would require the premises to be true. An unsound but valid argument doesn't qualify as stupid. It merely qualifies as crazy. The only way for it to be invalid, hence stupid, is for the conclusion not be a logical outcome of the premises. The conclusion may not be the only conclusion that makes sense, but if it is a correct conclusion given the premises, then it's a valid argument. 

Ok, so this argument is potentially crazy, not stupid.

It's been a while since I took logic in college, but each premise can be expratolated into a supporting argument, correct?

So, as I already posted above (sorry if you reply to that before I post this) what is the supporting argument to the premise

The Created will always rebel against their Creators?

[bigbade]

Flextt wrote...

I still can't get over the simplest solution: Just kill all synthetics. The Reapers could have come AND gone unseen into the Perseus Veil, kill one of the most feared species of our cycle and prevented a singularity for now. But then, even their current solution is only temporary.

It's very simple, the OP is right and so is the guy saying that the Xzibit photo is wrong. Reapers CAN'T kill all synthetic life, because organics will just always rebuild them, inevitably, but by leaving their own tech they can more than easily supervise HOW the civilizations advance and when they've met their advanced 'deadline' per se, the reapers come in and intervene. It's not perfect, but the starchild doesn't see any other way.

I don't agree with this idea in the least bit and IMO really makes the reapers instantly 15 times less cool, but that's the way the starchild's logic works and, even if you think it's wrong, it's still possible. It would be impossible for the reapers to simply track every civilization on every planet in every system one by one to find out "hey! who's building robawts!??!?"

[Lugaidster]

Draconis6666 wrote...

But there is no reason for him to even come to the solution he does, its the least logical of all possible solutions because its directly effected by the problem itself.  And realisticaly even in this case he is guilty of faulty logic because by the logic he uses to arrive at the problem he should logicaly then go kill all organic life himself to hold true to that logic, he himself defys his own problem.

The only way his logic makes sense is if he created his solution to ensure that the problem is true, that is the only way logicaly the entire thing fits together. (a) is true ( is true so I will create © that will eventualy ensure (  proving the problem true. In this case the logic fits. Otherwise there is no reason for it logicaly to arrive at the solution it does over other solutions the only other way it works is if there are other premises included into the problem that are not stated that alter the problem so that © becomes the only option.

Two things, First, you still seem to be fixated that the conclusion exists for the sole purpose of proving the second premise to be true. That's false because he's not creating the problem, he believes that the problem exists. Furthermore, his solution doesn't cause the problem to exist in the first place. He believes synthetics will destroy *all* organic life if he doesn't interfere by reaping *advanced* organic life. That's the big point here. There's a difference between *all*, *advanced* and *primitive* here, and that difference is what makes the conclusion not be a result of circular logic. 

Second, what do are you refering to when saying the least logical of all possible solutions? What are the other possible solutions? He does state that the Crucible changes him, meaning that given the premises, he's willing to accept other conclusions, but that doesn't change the fact that the old solution, while extreme, was still the result of valid logical reasoning (not sound, but valid).

[Iwillbeback]

The best analogy I can come up with is prunning trees

Trees can be spaced out evenly and be given the proper life cycle they deserve until they wither and die.

[Artoz96]

babies8mydingo wrote...

(a) Organic civilizations will eventually create synthetics
( The created will always rebel against their creators wiping *all* organic life in the process.

From then, he elaborates that this poses a problem, which becomes apparent because of the second premise, thus, he presents his solution:

© The reapers will come every so often to harvest and store advanced civilizations in reaper form leaving primitive organics alone.

Haven't read through the thread so this may have already been addressed, but for it to be meaningful both a and b have to be verifyible. I understand that you are trying to establish that the logic as internally consistent, but it's not an abstract problem, it's an extrapolation by the Star Child based on his observed galaxy. Because of this points a and b can be established as false using outside evidence. (a) Obviously, has been observed multiple times and so is likely, however, ( logically has never occured.

If ( had occured then either there would have been no continuation of organic life, or it was able to recover regardless.

So purely on a logic basis it doesn't work, because b is necessarily conjecture.

On logic basis we have billions years old race. On logic basis we have billions of galaxies.

So PURELY on logic basis it can work absolutly fine.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Lugaidster wrote...

Flextt wrote...

I still can't get over the simplest solution: Just kill all synthetics. The Reapers could have come AND gone unseen into the Perseus Veil, kill one of the most feared species of our cycle and prevented a singularity for now. But then, even their current solution is only temporary.

That doesn't put brakes on the rest of the galactic society. It works only on a case by case. It could've worked in this case, but then again, there's EDI. And who knows where else there's another AI. It would require active monitoring revealing their true purpose at some point and allowing organics to prepare in case the reapers ever show up again, defeating their ultimate goal by allowing you to counter them. 

Obviously their solution isn't perfect as evidenced by the Catalyst when he sees you and states that his solution won't work again. 

I disagree with what I have boldened. The Catalyst itself already posessed the technical capacity to impliment any one of the solutions we are offered at the end of the game. It had them prepared ahead of time, after all, and was just waiting for someone to stumble in and press the button.

Since the Catalyst resides in the Citadel, the Citadel is both the center of galactic society and nearly invulnerable, and the Catalyst has already invested enormous amounts of resources into its own solution, I don't see any logical reason it couldn't use the alternatives it gives Shepard at any time.

[Roxlimn]

If nothing else, all the misunderstanding of what seems to me to be a perfectly straightforward statement by Catalyst just substantiates what Sovereign was saying about their purposes being inscrutable to mere humans.

Presumably, Catalyst was simplifying this for Shepard's benefit. And many people still don't understand it.

[Artoz96]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

Flextt wrote...

I still can't get over the simplest solution: Just kill all synthetics. The Reapers could have come AND gone unseen into the Perseus Veil, kill one of the most feared species of our cycle and prevented a singularity for now. But then, even their current solution is only temporary.

That doesn't put brakes on the rest of the galactic society. It works only on a case by case. It could've worked in this case, but then again, there's EDI. And who knows where else there's another AI. It would require active monitoring revealing their true purpose at some point and allowing organics to prepare in case the reapers ever show up again, defeating their ultimate goal by allowing you to counter them. 

Obviously their solution isn't perfect as evidenced by the Catalyst when he sees you and states that his solution won't work again. 

I disagree with what I have boldened. The Catalyst itself already posessed the technical capacity to impliment any one of the solutions we are offered at the end of the game. It had them prepared ahead of time, after all, and was just waiting for someone to stumble in and press the button.

Since the Catalyst resides in the Citadel, the Citadel is both the center of galactic society and nearly invulnerable, and the Catalyst has already invested enormous amounts of resources into its own solution, I don't see any logical reason it couldn't use the alternatives it gives Shepard at any time.

You don't see logical reason? But you are absolutely shure that you MUST see the logical reason? So you say that you can logically describe eferything? So you know everything?

See what I am talking about? In your description if you don't see logical reasos so it is illogical. But that means that you know everything and it is false statement.

[Lugaidster]

babies8mydingo wrote...

(a) Organic civilizations will eventually create synthetics
( The created will always rebel against their creators wiping *all* organic life in the process.

From then, he elaborates that this poses a problem, which becomes apparent because of the second premise, thus, he presents his solution:

© The reapers will come every so often to harvest and store advanced civilizations in reaper form leaving primitive organics alone.

Haven't read through the thread so this may have already been addressed, but for it to be meaningful both a and b have to be verifyible. I understand that you are trying to establish that the logic as internally consistent, but it's not an abstract problem, it's an extrapolation by the Star Child based on his observed galaxy. Because of this points a and b can be established as false using outside evidence. (a) Obviously, has been observed multiple times and so is likely, however, ( logically has never occured.

If ( had occured then either there would have been no continuation of organic life, or it was able to recover regardless.

So purely on a logic basis it doesn't work, because b is necessarily conjecture.

You are partially correct. At this point I'd say both premises are conjecture as we don't know how or why the Catalyst arrived to those premises. However, conjecture or not, you don't need the premises to be true for the argument to be logically valid. That's the whole point of the discussion.

There's nothing in the story, nor I think will ever be, that will lead us to believe that either of those premises (more importantly the second one) is patently false or irrefutably true. As such, we won't ever be able to verify is the logical reasoning of the Catalyst is/was sound. However, with the current evidence, we can safely say that *IF* those premises are true, then his conclusion, hence solution, is a valid one, albeit horrible and cold.

We don't know what the catalyst has seen. Maybe he came from another galaxy or observed this events in another galaxy thus decided that he would prevent that from happening in the Milky Way. Maybe he was originally like the geth and at some point the consensus arrived at two distinct answers to the problem of wiping out a race and his part of the concensus decided to separate himself from the others akin to the Geth and the Heretics. Then the "heretic" reapers went on to destroy organic life in that galaxy, so this "good" reapers decided to stop that from ocurring in the Milky Way and stayed in Dark Space in between to prevent other machines from ever disturbing this balance. Sure, it's all assumptions and conjectures and we'll never know, but it doesn't matter, because again, we're not discussing whether the argument is sound, merely that it's valid, hence not stupid.

[emperoralku]

On logic basis we have billions years old race. On logic basis we have billions of galaxies.

So PURELY on logic basis it can work absolutly fine.

The fact that there is any organic life refutes this.

[Lugaidster]

Roxlimn wrote...

If nothing else, all the misunderstanding of what seems to me to be a perfectly straightforward statement by Catalyst just substantiates what Sovereign was saying about their purposes being inscrutable to mere humans.

Presumably, Catalyst was simplifying this for Shepard's benefit. And many people still don't understand it.

That's what it seems to me. In any case, we have no way of knowing whether the premises are right or not. So it doesn't really matter. What matters is that his solution is not the result of circular and/or faulty/stupid logic.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

Roxlimn wrote...

If nothing else, all the misunderstanding of what seems to me to be a perfectly straightforward statement by Catalyst just substantiates what Sovereign was saying about their purposes being inscrutable to mere humans.

Presumably, Catalyst was simplifying this for Shepard's benefit. And many people still don't understand it.

That is a total cop out, and it doesn't excuse anything. It's not that people don't "understand", as the Catalyst clearly states the motives of the Reapers in absolute and simple terms.

"We are here to save biological life from a technological singularity"

Is not hard to understand, nor is it anywhere close to being beyond comprehension like Sovereign taunted.

If anything, they should have just kept it at, "you wouldn't understand." That was ONE place that could have used a little mystery and speculation instead of convolution.

[AnttiV]

Lugaidster wrote...
He believes synthetics will destroy *all* organic life if he doesn't interfere by reaping *advanced* organic life. That's the big point here. There's a difference between *all*, *advanced* and *primitive* here, and that difference is what makes the conclusion not be a result of circular logic. 

If that's the logic, then by that same logic the reapers should eventually destroy him and *all* organic life. And he, being a synthetic lifeform in himself, should eventually destroy *all* organic life.

If you're presented with a problem that "cars kill *all* people, eventually" and tasked to get rid of the cars (regardless if you're told to preserve life or not) the logical solution IS NOT to create another, bigger car to run over the humans that can make cars. just because that presents the problem of YOUR car eventually killing everything. It just isn't logical. (Add to that that you yourself are a car, which should make YOU eventually run over all the people by that same logic, so why wouldn't you self-destruct, if your mission was to prevent that?)

[emperoralku]

AnttiV wrote...

If that's the logic, then by that same logic the reapers should eventually destroy him and *all* organic life. And he, being a synthetic lifeform in himself, should eventually destroy *all* organic life.

If you're presented with a problem that "cars kill *all* people, eventually" and tasked to get rid of the cars (regardless if you're told to preserve life or not) the logical solution IS NOT to create another, bigger car to run over the humans that can make cars. just because that presents the problem of YOUR car eventually killing everything. It just isn't logical. (Add to that that you yourself are a car, which should make YOU eventually run over all the people by that same logic, so why wouldn't you self-destruct, if your mission was to prevent that?)

Bazinga! We have a winner.

[Lugaidster]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

I disagree with what I have boldened. The Catalyst itself already posessed the technical capacity to impliment any one of the solutions we are offered at the end of the game. It had them prepared ahead of time, after all, and was just waiting for someone to stumble in and press the button.

Since the Catalyst resides in the Citadel, the Citadel is both the center of galactic society and nearly invulnerable, and the Catalyst has already invested enormous amounts of resources into its own solution, I don't see any logical reason it couldn't use the alternatives it gives Shepard at any time.

If he already did, then why did he say that the Crucible changed him? The created will always have a goal, whereas the creators don't know their purpose. If the AI had his goal altered in some way is implied by the crucible docking, then that means that he actually didn't had the capability to use any of those extra solutions.

I can agree with the current solution up to a point, but from the new solutions, I can't for the love of me believe that Synthesis addresses anything. I still have my contentions on the whole ending, but the motives for the current solution isn't one of them. It would've been infinitely cooler if they just left it as a mystery, because being a story of a superintelligent machine, his reasoning will still be confined to the imagination of the writters, so his solution won't seem as super. However, that doesn't make it logically invalid or stupid, just less cool.

[Artoz96]

emperoralku wrote...

On logic basis we have billions years old race. On logic basis we have billions of galaxies.

So PURELY on logic basis it can work absolutly fine.

The fact that there is any organic life refutes this.

Why is that? So you say one galaxy destroyed = all galaxies destroyed? We have rather large universe

[Roxlimn]

That is a total cop out, and it doesn't excuse anything. It's not that people don't "understand", as the Catalyst clearly states the motives of the Reapers in absolute and simple terms.

"We are here to save biological life from a technological singularity"

Is not hard to understand, nor is it anywhere close to being beyond comprehension like Sovereign taunted.

If anything, they should have just kept it at, "you wouldn't understand." That was ONE place that could have used a little mystery and speculation instead of convolution.

Begging your pardon, but many of the responses in the thread and the popularity of that photo does, indeed, illustrate that many people do not understand what Catalyst was saying. You might and I might, but those people? They don't.

It's plausible that Catalyst's proof for the inevitability of a technological singularity is beyond human comprehension - that might be the part where Sovereign says that it's not something humans might understand.

Or maybe, he's tried explaining it to other species before and just got the stupid ****storm around this stupid photo and he just gave up on the whole thing. I would've.

"It's because... ...no, you know what? You'll just misunderstand what I'm going to say. I got no time for this."

And though millions of years of trolling and frustration, he just cuts straight to the chase.

[Artoz96]

emperoralku wrote...

AnttiV wrote...

If that's the logic, then by that same logic the reapers should eventually destroy him and *all* organic life. And he, being a synthetic lifeform in himself, should eventually destroy *all* organic life.

If you're presented with a problem that "cars kill *all* people, eventually" and tasked to get rid of the cars (regardless if you're told to preserve life or not) the logical solution IS NOT to create another, bigger car to run over the humans that can make cars. just because that presents the problem of YOUR car eventually killing everything. It just isn't logical. (Add to that that you yourself are a car, which should make YOU eventually run over all the people by that same logic, so why wouldn't you self-destruct, if your mission was to prevent that?)

Bazinga! We have a winner.

Nope. If you want smth that don't mean it to be fact.

[emperoralku]

Artoz96 wrote...
Why is that? So you say one galaxy destroyed = all galaxies destroyed? We have rather large universe

All life means all life. Unless you're suggesting there are anti synthetic barriers between galaxies.

[emperoralku]

Artoz96 wrote...

emperoralku wrote...

AnttiV wrote...

If that's the logic, then by that same logic the reapers should eventually destroy him and *all* organic life. And he, being a synthetic lifeform in himself, should eventually destroy *all* organic life.

If you're presented with a problem that "cars kill *all* people, eventually" and tasked to get rid of the cars (regardless if you're told to preserve life or not) the logical solution IS NOT to create another, bigger car to run over the humans that can make cars. just because that presents the problem of YOUR car eventually killing everything. It just isn't logical. (Add to that that you yourself are a car, which should make YOU eventually run over all the people by that same logic, so why wouldn't you self-destruct, if your mission was to prevent that?)

Bazinga! We have a winner.

Nope. If you want smth that don't mean it to be fact.

Nice try but you don't actually counter the argument in bold.