695 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

chkchkchk wrote...

Yes, but the Reapers PROVIDE THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENCOURAGES DEVELOPMENT OF SYNTHETICS.  Mass relays!  The Citadel!  All that tech!

That's not true, chkchkchk.  Mass Relays and The Citadel don't encourage civilisations to build robots.

[Lugaidster]

Athro wrote...

I think you are grossly simplifying the argument and misrepresenting the conclusion.

It could be presented as follows:

a) Advanced Civilisations will develop synthetics
 Synthetics will wipe out all organic life
therefore:
We will guide civilisations to exist in a specific pattern of behaviour and advancement then reap them at the point where they will develop synthetics that could wipe out all organic life.

And you're misinterpreting it. If you really want to be picky, then it would be like this:

a) Advanced Civilisations will develop synthetics
 Synthetics will *eventually* wipe out all organic life
therefore:
We will guide civilisations to exist in a specific pattern of behaviour and advancement, then reap them at the point where they *can* develop synthetics that *could* wipe out all organic life. 

They are preventing the premise from happening, which is very different from proving that the premise is true. He's not trying to prove it is true with his conclusion. It seems circular, but it's not.

[General User]

Varus Praetor wrote...
But given enough time an organic species will conquer and exterminate the rest of the galaxy's organics and then commit mass suicide.  It has to be, since it has a non-zero probability!

Why stop there? 

Given enough time a synthetic race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's organics.  But given "enougher"  time an organic race will conquer and exterminate those synthetics.  Then, given "enougherer"  time a synthetic race race will conquer and exterminate those organics.  And so on and so forth ad nauseum.

It's like a coin, you can just keep flipping it over as many times as you want. 

Modifié par General User, 26 mars 2012 - 04:02 .

[Lugaidster]

Tritium315 wrote...

No, it makes use of awful logic.

Logic is pretty clear cut, so I don't see how it can be aweful.

[chkchkchk]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Yes, but the Reapers PROVIDE THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENCOURAGES DEVELOPMENT OF SYNTHETICS.  Mass relays!  The Citadel!  All that tech!

That's not true, chkchkchk.  Mass Relays and The Citadel don't encourage civilisations to build robots.

If the Reapers didn't want a bunch of synthetic-capable civilizations to pop up, the Reapers would not be encouraging the development of advanced civilizations.  Remember, all advanced civilizations develop according to the designs of the Reapers.  Therefore all synthetic-creation is part of the Reapers' design.

[CaptainZaysh]

General User wrote...

Why stop there? 

Given enough time a synthetic race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's organics.  But given "enougher"  time an organic race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's synthetics.  Then, given "enougherer"  time a synthetic race race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's organics.  And so on and so forth ad nauseum.

It's like a coin, you can just keep flipping it over as many times as you want. 

That doesn't work, though.  Once the synthetics have beaten organics once, they act to prevent organic races ever rising to threaten them again.  Enough Von Neumann probes armed with cameras and death rays, and the emergence of a new organic order becomes a zero possibility.

[Lugaidster]

chkchkchk wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Sovereign tells us that the Reapers guide the development of galactic civilization along paths the Reapers desire. If the Reapers want to stop synthetics from killing organics, why do the Reapers create a situation where organics create synthetics? Why don't the Reapers guide the development of civilizations in such a way that organics avoid creating synthetics.

IT IS ALMOST AS IF A NEW WRITER REJECTED THE EXISTING LORE OF THE SERIES. IT IS ALMOST AS IF MARAUDER SHIELDS WAS TRYING TO TELL ME SOMETHING.

They guide the evolution of the species in a certain pattern, but they can't eliminate free will. As every organic species will regard time as valuable, they will create tools that make them have more time with themselves, in the end, the ultimate tool will be constructed: a sentient synthetic life form. They can't eliminate that posibility, they can just cull those when it happens.

In other words, Sovereign was saying: "We guide you along the paths we desire, which are actually the paths we don't desire."

Yeah, okay.  They couldn't come up with a better plan?  If they wanted to preserve organics maybe the could have, I don't know, not given organics the technology to become advanced to the point that they create synthetics.  They could have, I don't know, maybe created technology that kept everyone primitive and isolated?

Sovereign's stuff about guiding sapient development makes sense in the original Lovecraftian sense, where the Reapers were using the galaxy as a farm.  Every 50,000 years they show up and feed and reproduce.  Even Drew's "dark energy" concept fit in with that.

If you do that you aren't allowing free will. Look at it this way. Let's say I believe that everyone that turns 21 years old will become a serial killer, and I want to prevent that from happening. What would be the less invasive way to prevent that from happening? Controlling or censoring everyone to prevent them from killing others or simply letting you live until you're 20 and then killing you?

Neither answer is the best, if you accept the premise to be true (which the reapers are accepting). In that case, no answer is better than the other one, so they chose one, it may not be what you'd choose, but your alternative isn't better.

And, to be honest, if the reapers did exist, I'd rather live in the universe where they kill us after a certain point rather than living in a permanently controlled fashion.

Yes, but the Reapers PROVIDE THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENCOURAGES DEVELOPMENT OF SYNTHETICS.  Mass relays!  The Citadel!  All that tech!

If you believe everyone becomes a serial killer at 21, but you want to prevent it... why would you then provide everyone with age-acceleration and enroll them in murder schools?

The Reapers aren't simply letting people screw around for 50,000 years.  The Reapers are actively guiding civilization to the point where the creation of synthetics is most likely.  There are countless ways to prevent organics from developing synthetics when you are a race of godlike super monsters that are more advanced that any other civilization that has ever existed.

The citadel and mass relays don't affect behavior. They are not like enroling kids in mass murderer schools. They are simply a path. They put you on a rollercoaster that lasts 50000 years. Whatever you do during the ride is up to you, after it, they'll reap you.

[Varus Praetor]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Varus Praetor wrote...

But given enough time an organic species will conquer and exterminate the rest of the galaxy's organics and then commit mass suicide.  It has to be, since it has a non-zero probability!

More fail logic.

Firstly the odds of them doing that are in fact pretty close to zero.

Secondly, new forms of organics would evolve to replace them.

Thirdly, it's not the problem the Reapers are here to solve anyway.  (Although incidentally they would, as a byproduct of their normal routine.)

I give the "fail" hat back to you.

Firstly, awesome, you've calculated the odds of a synthetic race exterminating ALL organic life and have determined it's significantly higher than zero?  You rock dude.  I bow to your mathmatical genius.

Secondly, hey if new organic life will just evolve anyway, how is synthetic life wiping it all out likely?  They going to run around hoovering the primordial soup of every habitable world?

Thirdly, I guess starbrat is a multitasker, solving multiple near-zero probabilities at once with his epic logic!

[CaptainZaysh]

chkchkchk wrote...

If the Reapers didn't want a bunch of synthetic-capable civilizations to pop up, the Reapers would not be encouraging the development of advanced civilizations.  Remember, all advanced civilizations develop according to the designs of the Reapers.  Therefore all synthetic-creation is part of the Reapers' design.

No;  B does not follow from A there.

Firstly, that statement from Sovereign was not very specific.  If you take it to mean "occupies the Citadel as its seat o government and relies on the relay network as its main infrastructure" then it has absolutely nothing to do with the creation of synthetics.

[Siansonea]

Catalyst's logic is stupid, and the Synthesis ending is even more stupid. Reapers are ALREADY organic-synthetic hybrids, so how is the Crucible's magic beam supposed to make them any more synthesized?

Modifié par Siansonea II, 26 mars 2012 - 04:08 .

[magor1988x]

There are a few flaws to your argument--- I AM ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL.

[GuardianAngel470]

Don't forget that the only real reason synthetic life would be capable of killing all organic life in the galaxy is because of the Relays making travel so easy.

So the Catalyst provides organics with the tools for their own demise (based on its logic) and then kills them to prevent their demise.

[chkchkchk]

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

Sovereign tells us that the Reapers guide the development of galactic civilization along paths the Reapers desire. If the Reapers want to stop synthetics from killing organics, why do the Reapers create a situation where organics create synthetics? Why don't the Reapers guide the development of civilizations in such a way that organics avoid creating synthetics.

IT IS ALMOST AS IF A NEW WRITER REJECTED THE EXISTING LORE OF THE SERIES. IT IS ALMOST AS IF MARAUDER SHIELDS WAS TRYING TO TELL ME SOMETHING.

They guide the evolution of the species in a certain pattern, but they can't eliminate free will. As every organic species will regard time as valuable, they will create tools that make them have more time with themselves, in the end, the ultimate tool will be constructed: a sentient synthetic life form. They can't eliminate that posibility, they can just cull those when it happens.

In other words, Sovereign was saying: "We guide you along the paths we desire, which are actually the paths we don't desire."

Yeah, okay.  They couldn't come up with a better plan?  If they wanted to preserve organics maybe the could have, I don't know, not given organics the technology to become advanced to the point that they create synthetics.  They could have, I don't know, maybe created technology that kept everyone primitive and isolated?

Sovereign's stuff about guiding sapient development makes sense in the original Lovecraftian sense, where the Reapers were using the galaxy as a farm.  Every 50,000 years they show up and feed and reproduce.  Even Drew's "dark energy" concept fit in with that.

If you do that you aren't allowing free will. Look at it this way. Let's say I believe that everyone that turns 21 years old will become a serial killer, and I want to prevent that from happening. What would be the less invasive way to prevent that from happening? Controlling or censoring everyone to prevent them from killing others or simply letting you live until you're 20 and then killing you?

Neither answer is the best, if you accept the premise to be true (which the reapers are accepting). In that case, no answer is better than the other one, so they chose one, it may not be what you'd choose, but your alternative isn't better.

And, to be honest, if the reapers did exist, I'd rather live in the universe where they kill us after a certain point rather than living in a permanently controlled fashion.

Yes, but the Reapers PROVIDE THE TECHNOLOGY THAT ENCOURAGES DEVELOPMENT OF SYNTHETICS.  Mass relays!  The Citadel!  All that tech!

If you believe everyone becomes a serial killer at 21, but you want to prevent it... why would you then provide everyone with age-acceleration and enroll them in murder schools?

The Reapers aren't simply letting people screw around for 50,000 years.  The Reapers are actively guiding civilization to the point where the creation of synthetics is most likely.  There are countless ways to prevent organics from developing synthetics when you are a race of godlike super monsters that are more advanced that any other civilization that has ever existed.

The citadel and mass relays don't affect behavior. They are not like enroling kids in mass murderer schools. They are simply a path. They put you on a rollercoaster that lasts 50000 years. Whatever you do during the ride is up to you, after it, they'll reap you.

If the Reapers are worried about synthetics destroying organics, why do the Reapers put organics on the path to developing synthetics?  The development is according to the Reapers' design.  Do the Reapers ever say that they value organic free will?  Why do the Reapers provide mass relays and the Citadel and other things that facilitate the advancement of civilization to the point where synthetics are possible?

Why don't the Reapers litter the galaxy with technology that will keep everyone bound to their homeworlds and stuck in the baroque period or something?

Modifié par chkchkchk, 26 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[Lugaidster]

chkchkchk wrote...

If the Reapers didn't want a bunch of synthetic-capable civilizations to pop up, the Reapers would not be encouraging the development of advanced civilizations.  Remember, all advanced civilizations develop according to the designs of the Reapers.  Therefore all synthetic-creation is part of the Reapers' design.

Not according to their design, but along a path. They don't have a design for organic life as they regard it as chaos. Whether or not relays exist, species will create synthetics either way. Space travel has nothing to do with that. What's worse, if they do that, then the new synthetics would wipe out an organic outright. Imagine if the Quarians weren't space faring by the time they invented the geth, they would've been exterminated.

They provide a path to control growth, it's still your choice to build synthetics or not.

Modifié par Lugaidster, 26 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[General User]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

General User wrote...

Why stop there? 

Given enough time a synthetic race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's organics.  But given "enougher"  time an organic race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's synthetics.  Then, given "enougherer"  time a synthetic race race will conquer and exterminate the galaxy's organics.  And so on and so forth ad nauseum.

It's like a coin, you can just keep flipping it over as many times as you want. 

That doesn't work, though.  Once the synthetics have beaten organics once, they act to prevent organic races ever rising to threaten them again.  Enough Von Neumann probes armed with cameras and death rays, and the emergence of a new organic order becomes a zero possibility.

Even if it could work the realy question is: Why do it at all?  What neccessitates that the victorious synthetics do anything of the sort?

[CaptainZaysh]

Varus Praetor wrote...

Firstly, awesome, you've calculated the odds of a synthetic race exterminating ALL organic life and have determined it's significantly higher than zero?  You rock dude.  I bow to your mathmatical genius.

Well, I can't take all the credit.  The technological singularity has been mused upon by greater minds than mine.

Varus Praetor wrote...
Secondly, hey if new organic life will just evolve anyway, how is synthetic life wiping it all out likely?  They going to run around hoovering the primordial soup of every habitable world?

Nope.

Varus Praetor wrote...
Thirdly, I guess starbrat is a multitasker, solving multiple near-zero probabilities at once with his epic logic!

Uh huh.

[CaptainZaysh]

General User wrote...

Even if it could work the realy question is: Why do it at all?  What neccessitates that the victorious synthetics do anything of the sort?

To ensure they're not subsequently defeated by an emerging race of organics.  They can be expected to act in self defence.

Even if the first ones don't and they subsequently get toppled, eventually a successor synthetic race will do it.

[chkchkchk]

Lugaidster wrote...

chkchkchk wrote...

If the Reapers didn't want a bunch of synthetic-capable civilizations to pop up, the Reapers would not be encouraging the development of advanced civilizations.  Remember, all advanced civilizations develop according to the designs of the Reapers.  Therefore all synthetic-creation is part of the Reapers' design.

Not according to their design, but along a path. They don't have a design for organic life as they regard it as chaos. Whether or not relays exist, species will create synthetics either way. Space travel has nothing to do with that. What's worse, if they do that, then the new synthetics would wipe out an organic outright. Imagine if the Quarians weren't space faring by the time they invented the geth, they would've been exterminated.

They provide a path to control growth, it's still your choice to build synthetics or not.

Let's remember that the Reapers kill off all organics EXCEPT for the pre-spaceflight ones. 
Surely there is a better path, one less prone to synthetic creation.  We all know that technological advancement is encouraged by trade.  See also: actual human history.  Keeping everyone bound to their homeworlds in a pre-spaceflight state would make synthetics less likely.

Also, why not seed each world with some kind of anti-synthetic monolith?  SURELY THE CATALYST HAS SUCH POWER.

[Clayless]

OP you are right. I don't know why people keep on using that circular logic analogy.

Looks like Soverign was right, most people can't comprehend.

[Rafe34]

SnakeStrike8 wrote...

Lugaidster wrote...

The best analogy I can come up with is prunning trees. When the trees are growing, sometimes the best way to ensure proper growing is by pruning it (ie, killing some branches) instead of leaving the tree to die because some branches take all the food killing all the otherones. (This does happen in some fruit trees and you have to prune it to ensure that all fruits are good).

This would hold up ordinarily, but the Reapers aren't killing 'some' humans or 'some' turians. They're killing all humans and all turians, and they do this so that the geth won't kill us first. In essence, the Reapers are racing to Reap us all before the 'other' synthetics slot us.
To use your own analogy, the situation is akin to a gardener coming up on a lawn of grass that has rose bushes growing on it. The gardener decides that because the roses have thorns, they have the capacity to threaten the growth of the grass. So he decides to torch the entire lawn with white phosphorous and napalm and hope that some seeds survive to grow later.
Instead of, y'know, just removing the rose bushes.

OMG. Best analogy yet, lol.

[Lugaidster]

sydranark wrote...

@OP,

It is still poor logic. In their actions, the reapers are assuming that synthetics will inevitably kill all organics.

There's no such thing as poor logic. Logic is clear cut. It's either valid or invalid, especially if we are talking about a machine. 

sydranark wrote... 

First of all, if that were the case, then why wouldn't they try to kill all synthetics instead of trying to kill advanced civilizations of organics? That would rid the galaxy of synthetics and prevent synthetics from killing anything. 

 

Killing synthetics won't prevent organics from building synthetics. Furthermore, it requires them to have a more active participation in galaxy matters. They simply don't want to. They put you on a time counter and when it reaches zero, the galaxy is pruned for new life to evolve.

sydranark wrote...  

Second, it is impossible to know for sure, 100%, that synthetics will kill all organic life. That's like saying, "there is a chance I will die in a car crash some time in my lifetime. So, I'll prevent that from happening by shooting myself in the head today."

  

That's the thing about technological singularity, it's a possibility, that given enough time will become a certainty. They believe that if one of the synthetics becomes rouge, that's all that's needed to prove their point. In their eyes, it's not worth the risk. So, they prune the galaxy every so often. Allowing all organics to have a chance at experiencing galactic life and afterwards storing them in reaper form.

sydranark wrote...   

Your tree-pruning analogy doesn't quite fit, since advanced civilizations aren't directly killing primitive organic life around the galaxy (taking food away from other branches). If the advanced lifeforms were going out and slaughtering life on other planets, then the reapers would have a valid argument in saying "we kill you to preserve other life."

   

You are mistaking the analogy. Every galactic specie whether organic or synthetic is a branch in the tree. If one branch becomes too strong, it can turn the tree into a crooked tree and can starve the other branches and kill them. The reapers want the tree to grow straight. I agree it's not the best analogy, but it fits and it does happen in nature when you don't prune the trees. If you've worked harvesting, you'd know that the whole growing process is controlled, and one of those means is prunning.

sydranark wrote...    

It's like this, the TSA screens people before they get on a plane to make sure they aren't terrorists, right? Lets say the TSA said, "screw it, there's a chance that all of these people are terrorists, so lets kill them all" and shot everyone in the airport. =/ Doesn't make sense does it?

    

You're misinterpreting what the reaper is saying, and galactic species aren't exactly being screened. A more accurate analogy would be that they let anyone inside the plane but they always land it in a jail before a terrorist does something and kills everyone. 

sydranark wrote...  

Lastly, lets keep in mind that this nonsense about preserving life didn't become a thing until the catalyst spat out some BS in the last 5 minutes of ME3. Until this point, the reapers justified their actions by making it seem as if they were doing organics a favor; as if reapers are the final forms of evolution. They were going to help the advanced organics reach this stage. They never gave a crap about synthetics killing primitive lifeforms or any of that garbage.

Therefore, the catalyst's logic is a load of crap. The only reason he tried using this logic was to convince Shep to agree with the reapers. It was all a half-assed attempt to manipulate Shep during his indoctrination.

That's not entirely true, it was hinted during ME2 that reapers stored life in a different form with the reapers. Not it's original form though and certainly not in a pleasant way, but wasn't completely out of the blue. Whether you agree or not is a whole different thing. I'm not argueing the validity of the premises, just the actual reasoning.

[General User]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

General User wrote...

Even if it could work the realy question is: Why do it at all?  What neccessitates that the victorious synthetics do anything of the sort?

To ensure they're not subsequently defeated by an emerging race of organics.  They can be expected to act in self defence.

Even if the first ones don't and they subsequently get toppled, eventually a successor synthetic race will do it.

That wouldn't be self-defense.  That would be offense (or "proactive-defense" if you're feeling extaordinarily charitable... and have had a few drinks).

And, besides, what about the other side of the coin?  Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them.  If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?

Modifié par General User, 26 mars 2012 - 04:27 .

[Dessalines]

This is already been discussed, but I will state it again.
!) Reapers being the only synthetic life that has proven to have the capabalities of wiping out all organic life create Mass relay which allows synthetics or organics to conquer the galaxy, because no species can move fast enough through the galaxy without the mass relays.
2)They decided to prevent other synthetics from killin all organic life, then they will kill all advance organic life. (They kill some non advance life on the planet, because I do not think their beams are only set to human.
3) Reapers do not plant life anywhere., so basically they are destroying all life in the galaxy, but at a slower rate.

[Lugaidster]

chkchkchk wrote...

If the Reapers are worried about synthetics destroying organics, why do the Reapers put organics on the path to developing synthetics?  The development is according to the Reapers' design.  Do the Reapers ever say that they value organic free will?  Why do the Reapers provide mass relays and the Citadel and other things that facilitate the advancement of civilization to the point where synthetics are possible?

Why don't the Reapers litter the galaxy with technology that will keep everyone bound to their homeworlds and stuck in the baroque period or something?

They aren't putting you on a path to build synthetics. Their premise is that you will build synthetics regardless. They put you on a path that makes you more predictable to them in order to harvest you when the time comes. It's not that they value organic free will, but they believe in some sort of balance, in which they are the counter-measure to technological singularity.

[Bill Casey]

The Reapers are far more than synthetics...

_______________________________________________________________

Shepard: Reapers are machines. Why do they need humans at all?

EDI: Incorrect. Reapers are sapient constructs. A hybrid of organic and inorganic material.
______________________________________________________________

Balak: "After you ruined my plans, my government accelerated research on the Leviathan of Dis. Have you heard of it Commander? The ancient organic dreadnought my people recovered from Jartar 20 years ago? Sound familiar?"

Shepard: "A Reaper. Your people were studying a Reaper corpse."
______________________________________________________________

Legion: "Your species was offered everything Geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machines' gifts to achieve it on your species' own terms. You are more like us than we thought."

Shepard: "You told me the Reapers were more my future than your's. You knew what they were, didn't you?"

Legion: "Transcended flesh. Billions of organic minds, uploaded and conjoined within immortal machine bodies. 'Each a nation'. We did not know. It was one hypothesis among many. When Nazara corrupted the heretics, we touched its minds. We perceived they were different from ours, but could not tell how"