Siansonea II wrote...
Catalyst's logic is stupid, and the Synthesis ending is even more stupid. Reapers are ALREADY organic-synthetic hybrids, so how is the Crucible's magic beam supposed to make them any more synthesized?
Modifié par Lugaidster, 26 mars 2012 - 04:31 .
CaptainZaysh wrote...
sydranark wrote...
First of all, if that were the case, then why wouldn't they try to kill all synthetics instead of trying to kill advanced civilizations of organics? That would rid the galaxy of synthetics and prevent synthetics from killing anything
Someone suggested that earlier, but upon reflection he did realise that stopping a whole galaxy full of people from making a certain tech advancement is impossible in the long run once you let the organics get to a certain tech level. The Reaper plan is to stop organics reaching that tech level.
CaptainZaysh wrote...
sydranark wrote...
Second, it is impossible to know for sure, 100%, that synthetics will kill all organic life. That's like saying, "there is a chance I will die in a car crash some time in my lifetime. So, I'll prevent that from happening by shooting myself in the head today."
It's not like that at all.
Modifié par sydranark, 26 mars 2012 - 04:34 .
SnakeStrike8 wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
The best analogy I can come up with is prunning trees. When the trees are growing, sometimes the best way to ensure proper growing is by pruning it (ie, killing some branches) instead of leaving the tree to die because some branches take all the food killing all the otherones. (This does happen in some fruit trees and you have to prune it to ensure that all fruits are good).
This would hold up ordinarily, but the Reapers aren't killing 'some' humans or 'some' turians. They're killing all humans and all turians, and they do this so that the geth won't kill us first. In essence, the Reapers are racing to Reap us all before the 'other' synthetics slot us.
To use your own analogy, the situation is akin to a gardener coming up on a lawn of grass that has rose bushes growing on it. The gardener decides that because the roses have thorns, they have the capacity to threaten the growth of the grass. So he decides to torch the entire lawn with white phosphorous and napalm and hope that some seeds survive to grow later.
Instead of, y'know, just removing the rose bushes.
Lugaidster wrote...
chkchkchk wrote...
If the Reapers are worried about synthetics destroying organics, why do the Reapers put organics on the path to developing synthetics? The development is according to the Reapers' design. Do the Reapers ever say that they value organic free will? Why do the Reapers provide mass relays and the Citadel and other things that facilitate the advancement of civilization to the point where synthetics are possible?
Why don't the Reapers litter the galaxy with technology that will keep everyone bound to their homeworlds and stuck in the baroque period or something?
They aren't putting you on a path to build synthetics. Their premise is that you will build synthetics regardless. They put you on a path that makes you more predictable to them in order to harvest you when the time comes. It's not that they value organic free will, but they believe in some sort of balance, in which they are the counter-measure to technological singularity.
Modifié par chkchkchk, 26 mars 2012 - 04:37 .
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The Angry One wrote...
Yeah really, who the hell knows how long it'd take organics to develop AIs without the mass relays and such to give them a massive head start.
Again, spacebrat creates his own problems then blames the organics. He is offensively stupid.
Our_Last_Scene wrote...
OP you are right. I don't know why people keep on using that circular logic analogy.
Looks like Soverign was right, most people can't comprehend.
CaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
Lugaidster wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Catalyst's logic is stupid, and the Synthesis ending is even more stupid. Reapers are ALREADY organic-synthetic hybrids, so how is the Crucible's magic beam supposed to make them any more synthesized?
You may want to start a new thread if you want to discuss the ending. This one isn't about the ending, just the catalyst reasoning. However, I encourage you to elaborate on why it's stupid.
sydranark wrote...
Achieving the tech-level doesn't necessarily mean that the tech will go out of hand and organics will inevitably kill all lifeforms in the galaxy. There may not be a zero chance but it can get pretty damn close. Peace between the Geth and Quarians is evidence. It is possible to maintain harmony. A miniscule chance of something going wrong doesn't justify the reaper's actions.
sydranark wrote...
You're right, looking back, this was a pretty bad analogy haha. But consider the one I said about airport security. TSA checkpoints scan luggage, carry-ons, people's clothing, all to prevent a terrorist threat. But, since zero chances don't exist, there's a chance that everyone in the airport is a terrorist. So, lets say the TSA kills everyone at the airport. They definitely prevented a terrorist attack (maybe), but at what cost? Even if the chance was close to 0, they went ahead and killed everyone. Stupid isn't it?
My argument was that even if it isn't circular logic, it is still pretty dumb. Just as dumb as circular logic.
Rafe34 wrote...
CaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
We have NO evidence that all synths will do this. As a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary- that they won't do it.
As Angry One pointed out, the Geth have had control of Rannoch for 300 years and there are still birds flying in the sky.
I disagree with theories that have reapers guiding civilizations down any specific evolutionary or technological path. Organics are free to forge their own technolical advancements. The citadel and mass relays exist only to make it easier for the reapers to catch the most advanced civilizations every 50,000 years. They leave civilizations alone until they are advanced enough to locate the citadel...and still leave them alone until the end of a cycle. The citadel and mass relays are a trap and nothing else, they do not have any effect on the creation of advanced AI by civilizations.Athro wrote...
Cazlee wrote...
@Admiral H. Cain ugh you caught that before I edited it.
Here. Reapers believe organics will exterminate not only themselves, but all other organic life in the galaxy without intervention.
To protect life in the Milky Way galaxy, reapers exterminate only advanced civilizations thus allowing organic life to evolve and continue forever.
Which is both negated and rendered circular when you remember that the Reapers have set up the Milky Way in such a way that any organic civilisations are shaped into particular structures by Reaper technology, thereby only being a threat because the Reapers mold them into that situation.
It's a solution that creates its own problem in order to be a solution.
That's circular logic.
Modifié par Cazlee, 26 mars 2012 - 05:19 .
Rafe34 wrote...
We have NO evidence that all synths will do this. As a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary- that they won't do it.
As Angry One pointed out, the Geth have had control of Rannoch for 300 years and there are still birds flying in the sky.
CaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
Siansonea II wrote...
Because killing all organic life and "preserving them in Reaper form" is not a good way to "save" organics.
Siansonea II wrote...
If Catalyst/The Reapers really want to keep synthetics and organics from fighting, all they have to do is STICK AROUND and STOP IT WHEN IT STARTS TO HAPPEN. They could have just shown up on Rannoch during the late 1800s to stop the Morning War before it started. But disappearing and leaving organics unattended for 50,000 years at a time seems like a Really Bad Idea. And it's not like they can really put a timetable on when organics and synthetics are going to throw down, the Reapers don't have a crystal ball.
The Morning War happened in the 1800s, before Nazara was even scheduled to open the Citadel Relay. Who's to say that the Geth needed more than a century or so to go all medieval on organics before the Reapers showed up for their regularly scheduled genocide? And if Catalyst LIVES in the Citadel, why does another Reaper need to "send a signal" to open it in the first place? This new, tacked-on ending doesn't make sense given what we already know of the story.
"Worked" is a tricky term in this case. The "Reaper Solution" has indeed prevented the rise of any civilization (synthetic or organic) that could defeat the Reapers, but that's really as far as it goesCaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
Lugaidster wrote...
Siansonea II wrote...
Because killing all organic life and "preserving them in Reaper form" is not a good way to "save" organics.
That's debatable at best, but we are not arguing whether or not the solution is the best, rather that if the conclusion is the result of correct logical reasoning. It is. Whether a more involved role or a less involved one is better really is irrelevant as that depends on who you ask. Some countries give more freedom to their citizens and other give less freedom, there's no consensus on what's best. The Catalyst has one solution that works for him.Siansonea II wrote...
If Catalyst/The Reapers really want to keep synthetics and organics from fighting, all they have to do is STICK AROUND and STOP IT WHEN IT STARTS TO HAPPEN. They could have just shown up on Rannoch during the late 1800s to stop the Morning War before it started. But disappearing and leaving organics unattended for 50,000 years at a time seems like a Really Bad Idea. And it's not like they can really put a timetable on when organics and synthetics are going to throw down, the Reapers don't have a crystal ball.
The Morning War happened in the 1800s, before Nazara was even scheduled to open the Citadel Relay. Who's to say that the Geth needed more than a century or so to go all medieval on organics before the Reapers showed up for their regularly scheduled genocide? And if Catalyst LIVES in the Citadel, why does another Reaper need to "send a signal" to open it in the first place? This new, tacked-on ending doesn't make sense given what we already know of the story.
Well, Sovereign was somewhat of a cristal ball, he monitored galactic evolution and if he needed to call the reapers before, he just did. Except that the protheans messed with his plan, which is why he went to the geth and the rest is history.
Tocquevillain wrote...
Rafe34 wrote...
CaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
We have NO evidence that all synths will do this. As a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary- that they won't do it.
As Angry One pointed out, the Geth have had control of Rannoch for 300 years and there are still birds flying in the sky.
300 years. Against 37 million years.
CaptainZaysh wrote...
Rafe34 wrote...
We have NO evidence that all synths will do this. As a matter of fact, we have evidence to the contrary- that they won't do it.
As Angry One pointed out, the Geth have had control of Rannoch for 300 years and there are still birds flying in the sky.
300 years is the blink of an eye. And the Catalyst isn't worried about the geth - it's worried about what the geth will become, once they finish that Dyson Sphere they're so desperate to build.
They are trying to turn into Reapers. And I think assuming that once they're done they will be friendly to us - because they didn't kill all the birdies flying over Rannoch - is hugely dangerous.
Lugaidster wrote...
That's debatable at best, but we are not arguing whether or not the solution is the best, rather that if the conclusion is the result of correct logical reasoning. It is. Whether a more involved role or a less involved one is better really is irrelevant as that depends on who you ask. Some countries give more freedom to their citizens and other give less freedom, there's no consensus on what's best. The Catalyst has one solution that works for him.
Varus Praetor wrote...
CaptainZaysh wrote...
General User wrote...
And, besides, what about the other side of the coin? Various organic cultures, some of which have spanned the galaxy, have taken measures to prevent the rise of a synthetic civilization that could topple them. If we can agree that any such systems organics put in place to prevent the rise of synthetics must eventually fail, why is it that synthetics will (eventually) put in place a system that will succeed in perpetuity in guarding them from organics?
The two aren't the same. The systems organics create will eventually fail because they're essentially police actions: thou shalt not unshackle an AI. Once the technology to do it becomes trivial - and eventually it will, left advancing - it's inevitable that someone will do it, regardless of the thou shalt nots. Imagine if you were trying to stop a galaxy full of scientists from splitting the atom. How long could you hold them back for? A decade? A century? A millennium? The Reaper solution has worked for at least thirty seven million years.
The system the super-synthetics will create to prevent the rise of organics, though, need have no such flaws. Using self-replicating probes with FTL drives, it is perfectly feasible to have a death ray orbiting every planet where life might arise in fairly short order. How would a primitive society defeat that?
Once the synths win, it's game over for organics.
You make so many assumptions is presenting your hypothisis it's hard to know where to begin. The galaxy is huge, organic life is diverse, sythetic life magically knows where every habitable planet is in order to launch their probes? The probes all function at 100% and none of them fail to prevent organic life? They have a death ray capable of preventing organic life on a planetary scale....?
And of course, this is all based on the wonderful logical leap that says sythetic life WILL obliterate organic life prior to heat death because it's a non-zero probability.
Say it with me...."there is no evidence." Taking preventative measures like this in the absence of evidence is what irritates people. It's the same reason why the TSA groping 4 year olds because they "might be a terrorist" irritates people. Just because something has a non-zero probability and dire consequences doesn't mean that preventative action needs to be taken. I could use all kinds of really great analogies from our real world, but they all involve genocide of actual human beings and it's just not appropriate.
At the end of the day, there's just no sound logical argument for the Reapers exterminating entire species in the name of protecting organic life when they could just as easily patrol the galaxy for "dangerous" sythetics.
Modifié par Lugaidster, 26 mars 2012 - 05:04 .
Varus Praetor wrote...
You make so many assumptions is presenting your hypothisis it's hard to know where to begin. The galaxy is huge, organic life is diverse, sythetic life magically knows where every habitable planet is in order to launch their probes?
Varus Praetor wrote...
The probes all function at 100% and none of them fail to prevent organic life?
They have a death ray capable of preventing organic life on a planetary scale....?
Varus Praetor wrote...
And of course, this is all based on the wonderful logical leap that says sythetic life WILL obliterate organic life prior to heat death because it's a non-zero probability.
Varus Praetor wrote...
At the end of the day, there's just no sound logical argument for the Reapers exterminating entire species in the name of protecting organic life when they could just as easily patrol the galaxy for "dangerous" sythetics.
Varus Praetor wrote...
Lugaidster wrote...
That's debatable at best, but we are not arguing whether or not the solution is the best, rather that if the conclusion is the result of correct logical reasoning. It is. Whether a more involved role or a less involved one is better really is irrelevant as that depends on who you ask. Some countries give more freedom to their citizens and other give less freedom, there's no consensus on what's best. The Catalyst has one solution that works for him.
A better topic would be whether a logical argument based on hypothetical scenarios is worth having. Anyone can make a bunch of assumptions not factually based and then proceed to form a sound logical argument for a solution. But what is the value in that? None. In this case there's actually a great deal of harm since it lead to genocide on a monumental scale.
Also, yes, the Reapers killed people regardless of how you look at it. Once you are melted down into goo, you're no more alive than you are immediately upon experiencing brain death. Just because a few cells are still alive doesn't mean you are. In this case I'm unaware of any evidence that shows individual cells are even still alive. DNA =/= life. We can crack open a dino thigh bone and find soft tissue with recoverable DNA. It doesn't make the fossil alive.
Galaxtic wide EMP anyone? Fry every electronic in the universeUnit-Alpha wrote...
Yeah, why not decimate synthetics? Especially if they are the reason organics are going to die, not the other way around.
General User wrote...
A synthetic created system need not have any flaws... but it will anyway. If not built in, than introduced later.
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