138 réponses à ce sujet

[NedPepper]

Bioware wants to hear from from fans about what they would like for Dragon Age 3.  The problem with this is how do you get anything useful from a fractured fanbase? 

There seems to be three broad groups. 

First: The we want Origins back.  Silent protagonist.  classical story.  Modifications galore.  Scrolling dialogue.  They hated DA 2 and see nothing about it that is redeeming. My take.  I have zero interest in GOING BACK to this.  Games should evolve.  But do they have a point about keeping certain RPG elements?  Sure.  But  to what extent?

The second group:  This is a group that was disappointed by DA 2 and felt that there were elements about it that worked and some didn't.  They're fine with certain changes.  The want to see some things returned from Origins, like certain classes, more options for the progtagonist, but also are willing to keep someideas like the Voiced Protagonist, the cinematic approach blended with the cRPG style that keeps  both the role playing aspect and the story strong and visually interesting.   These are the nitpickers.  There's a lot of different ideas.  These are the people you may want to pay attention to, because I think they're still in love with this franchise and only want to see it get better.  And better yet, they may be wary, but they are still Bioware consumers.  What they don't want is Dragon Age 3 to turn into Mass Effect 3, and I'm not even talking about endings.  Dragon Age is a role playing game much more than Mass Effect.  It's the hook.

The third group:  The people who loved Dragon Age 2 and would be happy with more of the same.  I will be honest, I really like Dragon Age 2.  I love the personal touch, I love the companions, and I'm going to miss my Hawke tremendously.  I'm going to miss Merrill and Fenris and Isabella.  (Pretty sure we'll see Varric again). I love the idea that it was ballsy and, depsite the rushed flaws, created a real gray area character who wasn't a godly superhero like Shepard and the Warden.  I'd like to see Bioware get even MORE experimental.  Forget about the Darkspawn as this great evil horde. (Hell, I'd like to have a talking darkspawn as a companion.  I want to get to know them.)  Let's dive into some political intrigue.  I don't need to fight hordes of monsters.  Give me a great story, a flawed protagonist, and well written companions.  I DIG the idea that romances have no gender.  I don't need a roll of the dice, turn based fighting system.  Fighting just gets from one part of the story to the next.  I'm fine with how it worked in DA 2.  At least it wasn't as tedioius as Origins. Give me moral issues to deal with.  I don't need to dress my companions.  (Although having them change clothes every once in awhile would be nice as the story progresses.) Let the role playing and the story telling become hand in hand, streamlined just enough that you don't fall into the Skyrim and Origins issue of doing so many random non plot related side quests that I start to feel disconnected from the main story.  I want an interactive novel.  I know my group is the minority.  I get that.  I also know that we may be the ones who get the least fan service.  But, I also want this IP to be strong and, well, loved again.  I love the series, I love the writing, and I love the concept.  So, I'm on board, regardless.  I'm the easy consumer.  You've already sold me.  Again, and sadly, I'm the minority. 

But what I hope comes from all of this, is that no matter what group you're in, you'll keep in my mind that no one group is right.  And the truth is that Bioware is going to have to come up with a compromise for all three groups.

One last thing.  For the people who just want to bury this franchise and have nothing constructive to say...why?  What's the point?  Do you want to continue playing Dragon Age or not?  Ask yourself that question.  You may not want to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt.  I get that.  There's...trust issues.  But if you are so disillusioned with this company (and I believe you are the TRUE minority), maybe it's time to let it go.  Do something else.

So, what group do you fall In?  What's the soluton?  Can this fractured fanbase somehow help Bioware in deciding where to go with the Dragon Age franchise?

[BanksHector]

I do not understand why everyone wants to group people together like this. I loved Origins and DA2 but both was far from prefect and could use improvements.

[Ystitans78]

First let me say that you made some very good points. I don't think that there is a way to make all the fans of the Dragon Age series happy. When DA3 does come out people will into these groups lol.

People that will hate the game no matter how good or bad it is.
People that will buy the game because it says "Dragon Age" on the box (myself lol)
People that liked DA2 and DA O:
Pepole that liked DA:O and hated DA2
People that hated DA2 come these forums and trash the game but still buy DA3 day one finish 10 or more times then come on these forums and  trash it lol.

Bottom line is they can't please everyone

Modifié par Ystitans78, 26 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[Adrian68b]

I agree with nedpepper. DA2 was different from DAO in many ways, but that doesn't mean worse. For my taste, an RPG is as good as the story involved. DA2 has a different kind of story compared to DAO. So what? Bioware was creative here, and I like and cherish that. For once, they dared to create a story involving a subdued hero, without godlike powers. For me, it added to the immersion. Hawke is rather like us, living in a world of politics, factions and leaders who don't care a bit about him but try to use him for their own goals. It's very realistic, and immersive for that.

[Adrian68b]

As for the combat system: Bioware's RPG's are combat oriented. The combat system of DA2 is much better compared to DAO. Both in term of mechanics AND immersion. I just finished DAO again, playing all expansion (except darkspawn), and yesterday I started DA2 again finished the prologue. None of the epic battles in the entire DAO had a similar feeling to the humblest of DA2 fights. Players are complaining about enemies appearing form thin air in DA2. Not so. They always appear reasonably (from windows and doors in Kirkwall, from other areas in the wild).

[NedPepper]

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one. It's a tricky situation. I get going back and trying to recapture the "old Bioware magic" in their library, but they also have to know that this fanbase is all over the place with what each individual wants out of this game. I'm not sure HOW you come up with a general consensus. But as long as David Gaider keeps writing fascinating characters in this gray area fantasy world, I'll be onboard.

The question remains, how do you convince the mob who seems so intent on hating everything? Even flawed, DA 2 is still more compelling and interesting than 80 % of most games on the shelves. Sometimes I think Bioware fans are spoiled. Kind of like fans of a baseball team that has a winning record every year, puts out the best team and players, and yet the fans complain that the team doesn't win the World Series every year. There's a complacency here, I think, where picking apart the minor flaws and ignoring the strengths is what everyone armchair critic feels like they should do.

Does it mean I'm saying there shouldn't be constructive criticism? No. Every artist gets better with criticism. But we need some...well, perspective on this forum. It's a bit a like a loony bin. Or Washington DC. Take your pick.

[Ystitans78]

I agree with nedpepper as to dealing with the fans that hate everything Bioware won't be able to please them. I remember coming to the forums and read posts about how DA 2 wasn't going to be good and how it was going in the wrong direction before it was released. My point is alot of people that post here disliked DA 2 before it even hit store shelves and when we start to get more information on DA 3 there are going to be people that dislike what's been shown. I agree that most of the negitive remarks posted here are from a vocal minority and most of the being negitive won't buy the game anyway. I liked DA 2 and I think it was a sucess it sold over 2 million units and......even the people that hated it are still here talking about it a year after it's release.

[Meris]

I'm firmly on the first group. This franchise was born out as a successful compromise between newer trends and classical CRPG goodness and shouldn't be distorted for the sake of a 'wider audience'. Dragon Age II isn't a evolution of Origins, its a differentiation.

I say this though: no group is homogenous, especially storywise. For an instance, you speak of political intrigue but we always had that in Dragon Age.

Modifié par Meris, 26 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[Dejajeva]

I just want them to make the best game THEY possibly can, and stop trying to please anyone. End of the day, they have to live with their work and their product- I trust job security is a good way for them to do the best job they can.

[The Confidence-Man]

They had no problem telling DA:O fans to f-off with DA2, I don't see why they can't just tell DA2 fans to f-off now and go back go Origins. It's only fair.

[Pzykozis]

Think to a certain extent they should stick to whatever they have in mind, really trying to appeal to everyone will never really work well, should stick with one particular track and just put it out there but at the same time tell people that aren't used to that sort of experience to give it a go, generally I'm of the opinion that a good game is a good game regardless of preferences (see Skyrim).

Focus and build it well and they'll come.

Having said that I'm.. uhh part of the 2nd or 3rd group. Enjoyed DA2 but there were some serious flaws.

[David Gaider]

nedpepper wrote...
My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

Yeah, tell me about it.

There's no way we could please everyone-- I really don't envy Mark and Mike in this respect. I have my personal take on what I would prefer to do, but also no illusions that my choice would be what everyone wants. So I'm happy to let someone else make that decision. Very happy.

Ultimately, many fans are never going to understand that "taking feedback" is not the same as "reaching a consensus". There is no consensus. There are people who want to shout down everyone else, and hope that volume is a way to get our attention. There are people who hope that ridiculing others (or us) will make it clear theirs is the only intelligent choice, or who use biased facts in an effort to be convincing. There are also those who are really passionate and thoughtful, who approach topics with an air of constructivism and compromise... and many of those people who just don't talk as much, for fear of dealing with an unpleasant atmosphere.

Hopefully we can keep that unpleasantness to a minimum-- because I think (and what Mike and Mark think) that many fans who come here just want to feel like they're being heard. Note it's "heard" and not "obeyed", and there are people who will never get that, but there are also many who do. We can discern which is which, and are rarely fooled... as ultimately the team will have to make its own decision as to which course is best, with as much input as we can sensibly obtain from the fans as a group, and forge ahead. And at that point, when we have something to show, we'll try to explain our thinking.

And, yes, to sell it. Because getting buy-in is part of the deal for a business, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of chances for the jaded folks to turn their noses up at our efforts to court them. But that's a ways off, yet.

[twincast]

nedpepper wrote...

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

You mean, again?

[Maria Caliban]

twincast wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

You mean, again?

You know quite well that some people were pleased with DA II because you've argued with them on several occasions.

[Meris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

twincast wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

You mean, again?

You know quite well that some people were pleased with DA II because you've argued with them on several occasions.

And you know quite well that Dragon Age II was a deviation from the norm that alienated upwards to half of the core fanbase, for the sake of wider audiences.

[Thor Rand Al]

nedpepper wrote...
The third group:  The people who loved Dragon Age 2 and would be happy with more of the same.  I will be honest, I really like Dragon Age 2.  I love the personal touch, I love the companions, and I'm going to miss my Hawke tremendously.  I'm going to miss Merrill and Fenris and Isabella.  (Pretty sure we'll see Varric again). I love the idea that it was ballsy and, depsite the rushed flaws, created a real gray area character who wasn't a godly superhero like Shepard and the Warden.  I'd like to see Bioware get even MORE experimental.  Forget about the Darkspawn as this great evil horde. (Hell, I'd like to have a talking darkspawn as a companion.  I want to get to know them.)  Let's dive into some political intrigue.  I don't need to fight hordes of monsters.  Give me a great story, a flawed protagonist, and well written companions.  I DIG the idea that romances have no gender.  I don't need a roll of the dice, turn based fighting system.  Fighting just gets from one part of the story to the next.  I'm fine with how it worked in DA 2.  At least it wasn't as tedioius as Origins. Give me moral issues to deal with.  I don't need to dress my companions.  (Although having them change clothes every once in awhile would be nice as the story progresses.) Let the role playing and the story telling become hand in hand, streamlined just enough that you don't fall into the Skyrim and Origins issue of doing so many random non plot related side quests that I start to feel disconnected from the main story.  I want an interactive novel.  I know my group is the minority.  I get that.  I also know that we may be the ones who get the least fan service.  But, I also want this IP to be strong and, well, loved again.  I love the series, I love the writing, and I love the concept.  So, I'm on board, regardless.  I'm the easy consumer.  You've already sold me.  Again, and sadly, I'm the minority. 

But what I hope comes from all of this, is that no matter what group you're in, you'll keep in my mind that no one group is right.  And the truth is that Bioware is going to have to come up with a compromise for all three groups.

One last thing.  For the people who just want to bury this franchise and have nothing constructive to say...why?  What's the point?  Do you want to continue playing Dragon Age or not?  Ask yourself that question.  You may not want to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt.  I get that.  There's...trust issues.  But if you are so disillusioned with this company (and I believe you are the TRUE minority), maybe it's time to let it go.  Do something else.

So, what group do you fall In?  What's the soluton?  Can this fractured fanbase somehow help Bioware in deciding where to go with the Dragon Age franchise?

This, third group most definitely for me.  I say again, I see what Bioware is doing, I see the potential DA2 has.  Everything you named off in the 3rd group Is what I saw, is why I loved DA2 and with more time could have been an excellently great game.  I get it, I see where DA2 is going, and I want more of it.   I'm done with the old rpg way of playing (well not totally, I did start playing NWN again lol) but I want a newer way of playing games, the way DA2 is showing us.  But yes I'm the 3rd group and I see and want the same thing.

[cJohnOne]

Did it ever occur to you that some people didn't like DAO after they got it and didn't want the next one. I always believed this to be true.

[Maria Caliban]

Meris wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

twincast wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

You mean, again?

You know quite well that some people were pleased with DA II because you've argued with them on several occasions.

And you know quite well that Dragon Age II was a deviation from the norm that alienated upwards to half of the core fanbase, for the sake of wider audiences.

1. Even if I believed that, the idea that 'no one' was pleased by DA II is simply not true.
2. I was stating a fact. You're stating an opinion. And no, I don't share your opinion.

[Meris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

2. I was stating a fact. You're stating an opinion. And no, I don't share your opinion.

Then tell me, why do you think it these forums full of threads on the one issue the devs cannot make a compromise? (Silence versus Voice).

Yes, Dragon Age II alienated a large portion of its core fanbase. That is not an opinion.

And no, I do not think that no one was pleased with it. But would rather that the 'good things' of DAII were kept for IPs that weren't supposed to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate.

Modifié par Meris, 26 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[Realmzmaster]

Meris wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

twincast wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

You mean, again?

You know quite well that some people were pleased with DA II because you've argued with them on several occasions.

And you know quite well that Dragon Age II was a deviation from the norm that alienated upwards to half of the core fanbase, for the sake of wider audiences.

What is the norm? Establiashment of a norm requires more than one game. If you have three games in a series like ME you can get a norm. If that is the case DAO deviated from the norm of previous cRPGs.  One game does not form a norm.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 26 mars 2012 - 05:28 .

[Maria Caliban]

Meris wrote...

And no, I do not think that no one was pleased with it.

So you agree with me, but you still want to start an argument that's unrelated to what I said?

Why?

[Realmzmaster]

Meris wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

2. I was stating a fact. You're stating an opinion. And no, I don't share your opinion.

Then tell me, why do you think it these forums full of threads on the one issue the devs cannot make a compromise? (Silence versus Voice).

Yes, Dragon Age II alienated a large portion of its core fanbase. That is not an opinion.

And no, I do not think that no one was pleased with it. But would rather that the 'good things' of DAII were kept for IPs that weren't supposed to be the spiritual successor of Baldur's Gate.

As I say to anyone Show me the numbers. Until someone goes out and does a definite survey of all 2 million plus owners of DA2 no one can say a large portion of anything one way or the other.  A fact is something that can be back up with empirical data. Otherwise it is just opinion.

[Meris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Meris wrote...

And no, I do not think that no one was pleased with it.

So you agree with me, but you still want to start an argument that's unrelated to what I said?

Why?

Because I misread what the first post of the quote pyramid said so I misread what you disagreed with.

Realmzmaster wrote...

As I say to anyone Show me the numbers. Until someone goes out and does a definite survey of all 2 million plus owners of DA2 no one can say a large portion of anything one way or the other.  A fact is something that can be back up with empirical data. Otherwise it is just opinion.

http://social.biowar...34/polls/23022/ 

50/50 with the numbers we actually have on the most popular theme of the forums. And no, surveys aren't done in absolutes. Further I'm not talking about everyone who bought DA2, I'm talking about the 'hardcore' core fanbase that actually comes into these forums, people who voted on that months old poll.

Now, if you want to show me numbers about how a big amount of people wasn't alienated by DA2, fine, do it.

Modifié par Meris, 26 mars 2012 - 05:38 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Meris wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

2. I was stating a fact. You're stating an opinion. And no, I don't share your opinion.

Then tell me, why do you think it these forums full of threads on the one issue the devs cannot make a compromise? (Silence versus Voice).

I for one liked voice better then silent, I go bk to playin a silent protag who lacks what Hawke had/did and I have a hard time getting into the game.  I'm trying NWN again, not sure if I'll succeed or how far I'll get but after playing with Hawke I really do have a hard time with a silent, dull, boring protag.

[Maria Caliban]

Meris wrote...

Because I misread what the first post of the quote pyramid said so I misread what you disagreed with.

Fair enough. I've done that myself on occasion.