5 réponses à ce sujet

[NedPepper]

Bioware wants to hear from from fans about what they would like for Dragon Age 3.  The problem with this is how do you get anything useful from a fractured fanbase? 

There seems to be three broad groups. 

First: The we want Origins back.  Silent protagonist.  classical story.  Modifications galore.  Scrolling dialogue.  They hated DA 2 and see nothing about it that is redeeming. My take.  I have zero interest in GOING BACK to this.  Games should evolve.  But do they have a point about keeping certain RPG elements?  Sure.  But  to what extent?

The second group:  This is a group that was disappointed by DA 2 and felt that there were elements about it that worked and some didn't.  They're fine with certain changes.  The want to see some things returned from Origins, like certain classes, more options for the progtagonist, but also are willing to keep someideas like the Voiced Protagonist, the cinematic approach blended with the cRPG style that keeps  both the role playing aspect and the story strong and visually interesting.   These are the nitpickers.  There's a lot of different ideas.  These are the people you may want to pay attention to, because I think they're still in love with this franchise and only want to see it get better.  And better yet, they may be wary, but they are still Bioware consumers.  What they don't want is Dragon Age 3 to turn into Mass Effect 3, and I'm not even talking about endings.  Dragon Age is a role playing game much more than Mass Effect.  It's the hook.

The third group:  The people who loved Dragon Age 2 and would be happy with more of the same.  I will be honest, I really like Dragon Age 2.  I love the personal touch, I love the companions, and I'm going to miss my Hawke tremendously.  I'm going to miss Merrill and Fenris and Isabella.  (Pretty sure we'll see Varric again). I love the idea that it was ballsy and, depsite the rushed flaws, created a real gray area character who wasn't a godly superhero like Shepard and the Warden.  I'd like to see Bioware get even MORE experimental.  Forget about the Darkspawn as this great evil horde. (Hell, I'd like to have a talking darkspawn as a companion.  I want to get to know them.)  Let's dive into some political intrigue.  I don't need to fight hordes of monsters.  Give me a great story, a flawed protagonist, and well written companions.  I DIG the idea that romances have no gender.  I don't need a roll of the dice, turn based fighting system.  Fighting just gets from one part of the story to the next.  I'm fine with how it worked in DA 2.  At least it wasn't as tedioius as Origins. Give me moral issues to deal with.  I don't need to dress my companions.  (Although having them change clothes every once in awhile would be nice as the story progresses.) Let the role playing and the story telling become hand in hand, streamlined just enough that you don't fall into the Skyrim and Origins issue of doing so many random non plot related side quests that I start to feel disconnected from the main story.  I want an interactive novel.  I know my group is the minority.  I get that.  I also know that we may be the ones who get the least fan service.  But, I also want this IP to be strong and, well, loved again.  I love the series, I love the writing, and I love the concept.  So, I'm on board, regardless.  I'm the easy consumer.  You've already sold me.  Again, and sadly, I'm the minority. 

But what I hope comes from all of this, is that no matter what group you're in, you'll keep in my mind that no one group is right.  And the truth is that Bioware is going to have to come up with a compromise for all three groups.

One last thing.  For the people who just want to bury this franchise and have nothing constructive to say...why?  What's the point?  Do you want to continue playing Dragon Age or not?  Ask yourself that question.  You may not want to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt.  I get that.  There's...trust issues.  But if you are so disillusioned with this company (and I believe you are the TRUE minority), maybe it's time to let it go.  Do something else.

So, what group do you fall In?  What's the soluton?  Can this fractured fanbase somehow help Bioware in deciding where to go with the Dragon Age franchise?

[David Gaider]

nedpepper wrote...
My real fear is that in trying to please everyone, they will end up pleasing no one.

Yeah, tell me about it.

There's no way we could please everyone-- I really don't envy Mark and Mike in this respect. I have my personal take on what I would prefer to do, but also no illusions that my choice would be what everyone wants. So I'm happy to let someone else make that decision. Very happy.

Ultimately, many fans are never going to understand that "taking feedback" is not the same as "reaching a consensus". There is no consensus. There are people who want to shout down everyone else, and hope that volume is a way to get our attention. There are people who hope that ridiculing others (or us) will make it clear theirs is the only intelligent choice, or who use biased facts in an effort to be convincing. There are also those who are really passionate and thoughtful, who approach topics with an air of constructivism and compromise... and many of those people who just don't talk as much, for fear of dealing with an unpleasant atmosphere.

Hopefully we can keep that unpleasantness to a minimum-- because I think (and what Mike and Mark think) that many fans who come here just want to feel like they're being heard. Note it's "heard" and not "obeyed", and there are people who will never get that, but there are also many who do. We can discern which is which, and are rarely fooled... as ultimately the team will have to make its own decision as to which course is best, with as much input as we can sensibly obtain from the fans as a group, and forge ahead. And at that point, when we have something to show, we'll try to explain our thinking.

And, yes, to sell it. Because getting buy-in is part of the deal for a business, and I'm sure there'll be plenty of chances for the jaded folks to turn their noses up at our efforts to court them. But that's a ways off, yet.

[David Gaider]

Realmzmaster wrote...
As I say to anyone Show me the numbers. Until someone goes out and does a definite survey of all 2 million plus owners of DA2 no one can say a large portion of anything one way or the other.  A fact is something that can be back up with empirical data. Otherwise it is just opinion.

I wouldn't sweat it.

We're well aware that people will tend to inflate their own opinion-- particularly on forums, where people will naturally seek out others who reflect that opinion back at them. It's human nature, both with regards to the positive and the negative.

It can also be very tempting to look around you in that circumstance and get the impression that what you see is all there is. "There are hundreds of people here all complaining! Holy cats, it's a tsunami of outrage!" ...never mind that hundreds, or thousands, of people is barely a drop in the bucket in terms of the overall picture. It's also not really a good argument when someone says "other forums I've visited feel the same way!" either... many of these posters are, in fact the same people. Even if they weren't, all forums work similarly. It's a self-selecting group.

Which is not to say that such opinions aren't representative of a larger audience, necessarily. Just because the vast majority aren't electing to present their opinions onlines doesn't mean they don't feel similarly.

But I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that the most ardent, dedicated fans and the more casual players don't have a lot in common-- by design. Which makes it a bit awkward when the ardent fan tries to co-opt them-- who are you kidding? I'm not sure why the ardent fan would even want to, other than that they think their opinion has more weight when backed up by numbers... combined with a lingering resentment, perhaps, that their share of the audience is slowly shrinking. The ardent fan has plenty of worth, as an evangelist and consumer both-- not to mention as someone capable of expressing a very informed opinion. These things are incredibly valuable to a developer.

But people will do what they're gonna. So try your best to read between the lines and get what value out of the interaction that you can-- ideally we'll do that and hopefully make a better product in the end for it.

Modifié par David Gaider, 26 mars 2012 - 05:51 .

[David Gaider]

eyesofastorm wrote...
You mentioned biased arguments, and I think you demonstrated for us here.  Is "our" share of the audience really shrinking or does it just look small next to the 7 billion people who aren't gamers but might be if you successfully guess the formula that will attract them?  I get that 7 billion is a much more attractive than maybe 1 million.  But I think you are going about it backwards.  You can roll the dice on the 7 billion and what they want and hope its a hit with them.  Or you can focus on the 1 million whose tastes you know intimately and whose loyalty you had spent a decade earning and hope for another few million in incidental sales from the other 7 billion people on the planet.  I think you did one of those with DA:O and another with DA2.  I know you don't get to make this decision anyway DG, but this is how I frame the situation in the light of your comment about my shrinking demographic.

Mmm I don't mean that the hardcore audience is shrinking. I mean that the overall audience is expanding.

Games are also becoming more expensive to make, primarily because it's now possible to reach a larger audience than before. Targeting 1 million sales is fine, but it no longer means what it once did. For the average game 10 years ago, 1 million sales was phenomenal. These days, it's very much not-- when compared to the costs associated with making a game of "acceptable" quality comparable with other triple-A titles.

Should we be making games cheaper, and be satisfied with the same sales we got 10 years ago? Maybe. Maybe there's no chance of reaching a larger audience with the type of games we make, and it's a futile effort. Maybe it's irrelevant, since the fans (even the hardcore ones) will compare the games we make to other triple-A games made with bigger budgets regardless of the sales. Like you say, it's not really up to me to make these decisions... but the overall trend is something anyone can get wind of if they pay attention. The amount of folly inherent in any given approach is mostly debateable, and no doubt the "accepted wisdom" will remain true until someone else rolls along and proves it false.

Modifié par David Gaider, 26 mars 2012 - 06:49 .

[David Gaider]

bEVEsthda wrote...
But are you really targeting a wider audience? Or artificially shrinking your potential market, by making them less interesting and more,.. err,.. well, childish?

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? In that respect, both sides are using divining rods to detect water, and nobody has a good answer. There are, however, many simplistic answers to go around.

I mean, you may think it's just the exploration, but Skyrim didn't do that.

This is one such. "More exploration" a la Skyrim is a simplistic answer, and it's not one we're suggesting. What was intended by that comment is to suggest that one of DA2's failings was that a player lacked the feeling of getting to explore... whether it be more varied environments, more of Thedas, or just a feeling of greater scope in the space offered.

It is not, however, "just" that. We don't think that, and neither do you.

[David Gaider]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Nobody expect Bioware to try to obey fans. But usually feedback is collected when trying to determine what masses primarily like and hate.

This would be a bad place to determine what the masses like and hate. The masses are not present.

It is, however, a good place to determine what the hardcore audience likes and hate. It's a place where we can bounce some ideas of of them, and a place where we can get some feedback... better to get some feedback from a non-representative group than to get no feedback from an invisible one.

We also happen to like our hardcore audience. It's hard not to like a group that is (usually) enthusiastic about what you make, and the ones more invested in it. They're paying the same amount as everyone else, but ideally they also get more out of their dollar. So we'll explore their thoughts as much as we dare, and then come to our own conclusions-- as will you. That's how it works.