138 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Nobody expect Bioware to try to obey fans. But usually feedback is collected when trying to determine what masses primarily like and hate.

This would be a bad place to determine what the masses like and hate. The masses are not present.

It is, however, a good place to determine what the hardcore audience likes and hate. It's a place where we can bounce some ideas of of them, and a place where we can get some feedback... better to get some feedback from a non-representative group than to get no feedback from an invisible one.

We also happen to like our hardcore audience. It's hard not to like a group that is (usually) enthusiastic about what you make, and the ones more invested in it. They're paying the same amount as everyone else, but ideally they also get more out of their dollar. So we'll explore their thoughts as much as we dare, and then come to our own conclusions-- as will you. That's how it works.

[Realmzmaster]

Mr Fixit wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Mmm I don't mean that the hardcore audience is shrinking. I mean that the overall audience is expanding.

That's why I think that the Age of HardcoreTM is bound to return.

Not only is the audience expanding, but also the age of an average gamer is likely rising. Games aren't seen as the folly of the young anymore. And you know what they say, older people are more conservative, not so ready to keep up with the times. That way, some gaming niches will be an increasing market in the years to come. RPGs included.

I never saw gaming as the folly of the young. I was one of the young back then are older now and still gaming. I count myself as one of the old and I am not conservative or liberal. I know everyone is not going to like the way I want crpgs to be so I find the ones I can enjoy. I know nothing remains the same.

I find it interesting when posters say that the Elder Scroll games are hardcore crpgs. I tell to go find a game called Temple of Elemental Evil to experience hardcore crpg gaming. I am aware that everyone does not bring the same experiences to the table. I have just been around long enough (in fact from the beginning) to see the evolution and revolution in crpgs.

[Realmzmaster]

David Gaider wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Nobody expect Bioware to try to obey fans. But usually feedback is collected when trying to determine what masses primarily like and hate.

This would be a bad place to determine what the masses like and hate. The masses are not present.

It is, however, a good place to determine what the hardcore audience likes and hate. It's a place where we can bounce some ideas of of them, and a place where we can get some feedback... better to get some feedback from a non-representative group than to get no feedback from an invisible one.

We also happen to like our hardcore audience. It's hard not to like a group that is (usually) enthusiastic about what you make, and the ones more invested in it. They're paying the same amount as everyone else, but ideally they also get more out of their dollar. So we'll explore their thoughts as much as we dare, and then come to our own conclusions-- as will you. That's how it works.

Coming to our own conclusions is it in a nutshell. The point being how well our conclusions matches Bioware's conclusions of our feedback. Time will tell.

[Adrian68b]

Polls are mainly just numbers. More important are coherent opinions made by truly involved gamers. My guess is that most of the complains about DA2 are made because fans considered DA2 a DAO sequel. It's not. Is another story, in another place, played almost in the same time as DAO.
For a RPG, immersion is paramount; and for me, DA2 beats DAO. Bioware once recreated the RPG standard with BG and did it once again with DAO. Innovation is your real craft, David. And of course a good story. Make a game with a good story and you will create a big audience. Just remember Frank Herbert and the Dune series.

[Lord Gremlin]

David Gaider wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...
Nobody expect Bioware to try to obey fans. But usually feedback is collected when trying to determine what masses primarily like and hate.

This would be a bad place to determine what the masses like and hate. The masses are not present.

It is, however, a good place to determine what the hardcore audience likes and hate. It's a place where we can bounce some ideas of of them, and a place where we can get some feedback... better to get some feedback from a non-representative group than to get no feedback from an invisible one.

We also happen to like our hardcore audience. It's hard not to like a group that is (usually) enthusiastic about what you make, and the ones more invested in it. They're paying the same amount as everyone else, but ideally they also get more out of their dollar. So we'll explore their thoughts as much as we dare, and then come to our own conclusions-- as will you. That's how it works.

Well, hardcore fans also tend to be the first to get mad and bite the hand that feeds them their entertainment drug. I know that I do so, and that I do so with all the responsibility and sense of a rabid badger. Although I always have a sweet spot in my heart for you Mr. Gaider thanks to your awesome books.
Seriously, you should write another one.

[Adrian68b]

Years ago I read a Sci-Fi joke about a guy who created a banana with a zip fastener. Asked about why should one ever try to put the banana back in it's skin, he answered: "Once there is a zip fastener on a banana, somebody will find the need to use it'
My point is that there is no way to anticipate (using polls, surveys) the impact of a new concept. Conservative game studios can, but it's not the case for Bioware. Maybe a new book could help...

[Adrian68b]

And my guess is that DA3 WILL have a spectacular and unexpected story, The stage was set by lose events in both DAO and DA2. And then maybe some of the DA2 haters will begin to understand what DA2 really was.

[Lord Gremlin]

Adrian68b wrote...

And my guess is that DA3 WILL have a spectacular and unexpected story, The stage was set by lose events in both DAO and DA2. And then maybe some of the DA2 haters will begin to understand what DA2 really was.

Civil War in Oralis plus Mages vs Templar conflict... Last book is a dead giveaway. Intentional perhaps.

[Wulfram]

The main problem with feedback now is that everything has been bounced around the echo chamber for months. And a lot of people probably haven't played the game lately - I'm currently doing a playthrough, but I'm pretty sure what I'd highlight as big issues are different from what I'd have done a week ago when I hadn't played for a while.

Also, you're probably getting some cross over from ME3. Endings and Autodialogue will have shot up peoples lists because of the recent release.

edit: @Lord Gremlin it was pretty obvious to people that DA2 would be set in Orlais too, IIRC.

Modifié par Wulfram, 26 mars 2012 - 08:17 .

[Maria Caliban]

Wulfram wrote...

edit: @Lord Gremlin it was pretty obvious to people that DA2 would be set in Orlais too, IIRC.

I do recall the 'wtf is a Kirkwall?' response at the bioboards when we learned where it would be set.

[IAmTheMP]

Someday, Antiva. Someday...

[Adrian68b]

My guess is that civil war and the mage - templar conflict is just a part of the story. The unexpected is about something bigger.
Well, it's just how I would continue the DA story. At the end of DAO and DA2 a Warden is king of Ferelden, Morrigan and Flemeth both have secret plans, AND both are mages ... and possibly something else.

[Ystitans78]

This may be just me but I think making a game play just like Balder's Gate but with better graphics would never hold up in today's market. As Mr. Gaider said the audience for games is getting larger and I think that because of this games need to be easier to play. I'm not saying they shouldn't be challenging but it shouldn't take for example four buttons to walk forward (Tomb Raider).

Modifié par Ystitans78, 26 mars 2012 - 08:40 .

[Adrian68b]

And so far, during Dragon Age Flemeth was the real key figure (saving Maric, Loghain, Alistair, the Warden, Hawke, preparing Morrigan for the Blight and staging events). So ...

[the_one_54321]

scyphozoa wrote...
Something that has been bugging me about the core v casual debate are the customer's expectations.

I don't give a crap about any nebulous definition of core or casual. All I know is that up until a few years ago BioWare relased games that I wanted to play. And they were on a very short list of developers that made these kinds of games. Then suddenly they identified a new set of fans that love the things that I hate. And in order to please these new fans, they now make games that I hate.

I was using a dash of hyperbole above, so keep that in mind. But there is no hyperbole in what I say next; I want what they don't want. They want what I don't want. The next game you make is going to make one of us unhappy, no matter what.

[Nurot]

Realmzmaster wrote...

As I say to anyone Show me the numbers. Until someone goes out and does a definite survey of all 2 million plus owners of DA2 no one can say a large portion of anything one way or the other.  A fact is something that can be back up with empirical data. Otherwise it is just opinion.

http://social.biowar...34/polls/23022/ 

50/50 with the numbers we actually have on the most popular theme of the forums. And no, surveys aren't done in absolutes. Further I'm not talking about everyone who bought DA2, I'm talking about the 'hardcore' core fanbase that actually comes into these forums, people who voted on that months old poll.

Now, if you want to show me numbers about how a big amount of people wasn't alienated by DA2, fine, do it.

God, I hate it when people abuse statistics. No, those polls aren't good for anything! Not even to show what the hardcore fans think. The only thing they can tell you are that people of both opinions exist, nothing about their relative or absolute numbers.

If you want to know what the hardcore fanbase thinks, you need a large enough sample (at least 1000) and, just as important, a representative sample. You have to ask the corect amount of people from different groups, ie women, different ages, different countries and so on. In this case it might be difficult to find out what a representative sample really is. You would have to know how many of all women, age groups and so on are playing Dragon age games multiple times. You would of course have to come up with a good definition of what a hardcore fan is.

An online poll on a gaming forum will never get the numbers needed for good statistics.Since it is optional, it will never be representative.

To adress the post you responded to: No, you don't have to ask all 2 million players about their views to find out what people thought about DA2. You only need to match the criterias I described above. Well, "only" may be the wrong word, since finding the representative sample for that may be hard and require its own statistical survey.

Remember people, statistic is easy to abuse and easy to be fooled by. Even leading newspapers (in Sweden at least) are really bad at it.

Modifié par Nurot, 26 mars 2012 - 10:12 .

[Nurot]

nedpepper wrote...

Bioware wants to hear from from fans about what they would like for Dragon Age 3.  The problem with this is how do you get anything useful from a fractured fanbase? 

There seems to be three broad groups. 

First: The we want Origins back.  Silent protagonist.  classical story.  Modifications galore.  Scrolling dialogue.  They hated DA 2 and see nothing about it that is redeeming. My take.  I have zero interest in GOING BACK to this.  Games should evolve.  But do they have a point about keeping certain RPG elements?  Sure.  But  to what extent?

The second group:  This is a group that was disappointed by DA 2 and felt that there were elements about it that worked and some didn't.  They're fine with certain changes.  The want to see some things returned from Origins, like certain classes, more options for the progtagonist, but also are willing to keep someideas like the Voiced Protagonist, the cinematic approach blended with the cRPG style that keeps  both the role playing aspect and the story strong and visually interesting.   These are the nitpickers.  There's a lot of different ideas.  These are the people you may want to pay attention to, because I think they're still in love with this franchise and only want to see it get better.  And better yet, they may be wary, but they are still Bioware consumers.  What they don't want is Dragon Age 3 to turn into Mass Effect 3, and I'm not even talking about endings.  Dragon Age is a role playing game much more than Mass Effect.  It's the hook.

The third group:  The people who loved Dragon Age 2 and would be happy with more of the same.  I will be honest, I really like Dragon Age 2.  I love the personal touch, I love the companions, and I'm going to miss my Hawke tremendously.  I'm going to miss Merrill and Fenris and Isabella.  (Pretty sure we'll see Varric again). I love the idea that it was ballsy and, depsite the rushed flaws, created a real gray area character who wasn't a godly superhero like Shepard and the Warden.  I'd like to see Bioware get even MORE experimental.  Forget about the Darkspawn as this great evil horde. (Hell, I'd like to have a talking darkspawn as a companion.  I want to get to know them.)  Let's dive into some political intrigue.  I don't need to fight hordes of monsters.  Give me a great story, a flawed protagonist, and well written companions.  I DIG the idea that romances have no gender.  I don't need a roll of the dice, turn based fighting system.  Fighting just gets from one part of the story to the next.  I'm fine with how it worked in DA 2.  At least it wasn't as tedioius as Origins. Give me moral issues to deal with.  I don't need to dress my companions.  (Although having them change clothes every once in awhile would be nice as the story progresses.) Let the role playing and the story telling become hand in hand, streamlined just enough that you don't fall into the Skyrim and Origins issue of doing so many random non plot related side quests that I start to feel disconnected from the main story.  I want an interactive novel.  I know my group is the minority.  I get that.  I also know that we may be the ones who get the least fan service.  But, I also want this IP to be strong and, well, loved again.  I love the series, I love the writing, and I love the concept.  So, I'm on board, regardless.  I'm the easy consumer.  You've already sold me.  Again, and sadly, I'm the minority. 

But what I hope comes from all of this, is that no matter what group you're in, you'll keep in my mind that no one group is right.  And the truth is that Bioware is going to have to come up with a compromise for all three groups.

One last thing.  For the people who just want to bury this franchise and have nothing constructive to say...why?  What's the point?  Do you want to continue playing Dragon Age or not?  Ask yourself that question.  You may not want to give Bioware the benefit of the doubt.  I get that.  There's...trust issues.  But if you are so disillusioned with this company (and I believe you are the TRUE minority), maybe it's time to let it go.  Do something else.

So, what group do you fall In?  What's the soluton?  Can this fractured fanbase somehow help Bioware in deciding where to go with the Dragon Age franchise?

Count me in among group 3. I love (practically) everything about DA2. I love how innovative Bioware was with DA2. That is why a simple carbon copy of DA2 for DA3 could not possibly match DA2:s greatness. If they want to do that than they should keep being innovative and experimental, just as they were with the Baldurs gate games, Mass effect 1 and 2 (I haven't played ME3 yet), DAO and DA2. Surprise me!

I could write a long list of what I liked about DA2 (and someday, maybe I will), but for now I will just copy/paste your list, since it covers the majority of what I liked. I have to add that I really loved the combat though, since you felt that it was a less important feature for you. I could have played DA2 for the combat alone, with not a single drop of story. Of course, that mindblowingly good (innovative!) story only made the game even greater.

[ReshyShira]

I don't really care about what happens in DA3 so long as they don't.

A. Make it a Mass Effect game based in the Dragon Age universe. I know it's tempting to combine your two fandoms into one beautiful pile of money but they're totally different games and you need to understand that.

B. Dumb down aspects of the game under the assumption that console gamers are 'Too Stupid' to be given choice and hard choices.

[bEVEsthda]

David Gaider wrote...

bEVEsthda wrote...
But are you really targeting a wider audience? Or artificially shrinking your potential market, by making them less interesting and more,.. err,.. well, childish?

That is the million dollar question, isn't it? In that respect, both sides are using divining rods to detect water, and nobody has a good answer.

If there had been one game that had been 'successful' that way, I would have understood that uncertainty. But I can't see any.

[Carmen_Willow]

I loved Origins.
I grew to love DA: 2
I am hopeful that I will love DA: 3

I am fearful that we will have an "ending disaster." I am hopeful that the DA writing team will avoid this particular black hole of death.

I want DA: 3 to be a great game, and if it tells me an interesting story with some interesting companions, I will probably love it, if not immediately, then over time.

[element eater]

well op given i can only offer the suggestion that it is the first group you name who are going to come of badly as of yet everything confirmed or hinted at by bioware seems to be in opposition to this school thought

[ev76]

There are great ideas in some of the general threads out there. I for one enjoyed both games da:o and da2. It is great that bioware looks at bsn feedback to gauge what we would like to see. I think they addressed some of the issues people had With da2 and implemented them above and beyond the call in their two dlc's legacy and mota. If those two dlc's are just a taste of what is to come as far as game mechanics and scope then I'm all for it.
That to me is one of the many reasons I like Bioware they listen to suggestions. Just knowing that makes them top notch.

[kingtigernz]

The irony in what Bioware tried accomplish with Dragon Age 2,and what actually happened is telling..(referring to attracting a bigger audience).What I don to understand is why kill off the fan base you already have to catered towards a fan base that MIGHT be interested.