138 réponses à ce sujet

[bEVEsthda]

nedpepper wrote...

I just saw a quote in another thread where someone said, "Just go back to Origins completely and people will stop complaining." Then you had his supporters. That's where I get this from. I don't think I'm inventing it. There are those people. I've been arguing on this board since the game was released. They're out there.

The second group I mentioned are the broadest. They're the ones who want to see a more amalgation of the two games. I think most people on here fall into that group. But I don't think you can say group 1 doesn't exist. I think if you read the race thread, you can see what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Or it may the "Bioware why don't you know what we want" thread.   They all start to run together.

I must have looked at the wrong race thread, because I didn't see anything.

Also, I will say this that I find "rather a new DA:O completely, than any DA2 sequel" very reasonable. And that might also be the meaning.

[bEVEsthda]

Adrian68b wrote...

bEVEsthda you're right in your complain. Being a psychologist I know a little about how human mind works.
I felt exactly the same way when I played the DA2 demo. I downloaded it in the day it appeared and tried it immediately. I was utterly disappointed. I felt the action and the story rushed, the combat system a joke and the interactions just stupid. I deleted it immediately and put it out of my mind for three months. Then I realized the fact that I treated DA2 like DAO2 and decided to stop comparing DA2 with DAO. Bought the game and tried it at leisure. And it worked. The combat system worked once I figured it out. In fact, it worked beyond my expectations (my PC was a rogue). Reading carefully every piece of in-game information and replaying some cinematics when needed (Flemeth's, for instance) got me in the story. In this way, the story unfolded seamlessly.

When compared to DAO however, DA2 is something completely different. DAO was a large scale epic story with hundreds of NPC's, epic battles, major in-game consequences (settling two kings, defeating a Blight). The option for different origin background stories was a major hit.

In contrast DA2 it's a small game, concerning just one city with several factions and some qunari. Instead of an alliance you got a small family and some friends. In terms of proportions, there is no possible comparison between DAO and DA2.

So, in my opinion any attempt to compare DA2 and DAO will ruin DA2 playing. Treating DA2 as a different approach for RPG worked in my case.

I can agree with this. This is a direct quote I wrote a year ago:

"I would have bought it as DA-light:Kirkwall, paid $60, played it through, been happy, complained about the high price and wondered "When is DA2 due?".

Or some other name, 'Champion of Kirkwall' - a Dragon Age game'. DA fans would have wanted to have it and play it, just because it's DA. They wouldn't have given it a bad rep, as long as they still anticipated a genuine DA2, and who knows what kind of sales 'Champion of Kirkwall' would have achieved then?
Bioware's Dragon Age brandname got seriously damaged by marketings' very poor decision to sell it as a sequel.
(that's actually a stupendously bad decision)

[Adrian68b]

Concerning emotional involvement with companions: the amount of time spent playing or the ordeals are not valid criteria either. Let's think about IWD and IWD2. Both huge games with good plots. I've got involved in the story, but the emotional link between team members was ZERO. Compare that with BG and BG2. You've got emotional involvement when something with emotional impact happens in-game. There were few such scenes in DAO (at the end of human origin, for instance) but a lot more in DA2. It's not about deaths or loses, but emotional reactions. Just remember the Fenris-PC interactions. In a sense, the smaller scale of DA2 made it possible.
For me, Hawke & Co seemed like an extended family.

[the_one_54321]

I'm still waiting for DA:O-2. That's all I want.

[Adrian68b]

Sometimes an extended story needs some minor plots to unfold. DA2 was such. And it's not a bad thing either (compare the large scale Dune with Dune Messiah). In my case it was refreshing to play a different kind of game. About DA2 marketing: my guess is that Bioware wasn't involved.
Also, my guess is that DA3 will be again a large scale game, with large scale battles and alliances. And very likely with different PC options, maybe from different factions.
And with a completely unexpected ending.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 27 mars 2012 - 08:11 .

[Adrian68b]

"Champion of Kirkwall" - a good title!

Or simply "Dragon Age: The Champion". It's similar with "Dragon Age: Origins" but clearly not Dragon Age 2.
Funny how marketing works sometimes.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 27 mars 2012 - 10:10 .

[seraphymon]

Adrian68b wrote...

Exactly. I, too love different. In DAO, the Warden was in some way detached emotionally. In every origin stories, the major deaths (family, friends) happened when the PC was absent. Lothering was destroyed only after the PC leaved. We witnessed only the deaths of Cailan and Duncan. In DA2 all the major loses happens with Hawke present. Also, Hawke's companions are in the same league. Aveline kills her husband, Varric is betrayed and then confront his brother, Anders is forced to kill his friend made tranquil, Fernis encounter his sister, Merrill kills her keeper. You as Hawke care more about your emotionally wounded companions. In DAO strangely Alistair care only for Duncan and is really detached about Cailan. I can understand that such an emotional involvement could be quite distressing for other players. And it's not exactly what they expected.
As for Flemeth future involvement, it's of course only my hope for a good story. I played every Bioware medieval RPG so far mainly because of their exquisite plots. As far I am able to guess, David Gaider likes to conceal major plot events, revealing only some minor warnings. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I don't care as long as the story in DA3 will be good.
As for Bioware claim about Hawke's actions, it's true from certain piont of view (quoting Obi-Wan from SW5). For instance Hawke's decision to go to the Deep Roads leads to the discovery of the Idol. I don't think that Bartrand alone could have done that (killing a mature dragon). Of course, the idol was discovered accidentally, Hawke or Varric had no knowledge about it. But the fact remains. Maybe Anders would have acted alone, but probably would have ended killed early in the events, or made tranquil.
I really understand your viewpoint, Seraphymon. Your expectation about an epic plot in DA2, fuelled by Bioware's anouncement was unfulfilled. Instead of a classic epical adventure, Bioware came with an emotional drama. But SW5 (The Empire Strikes Back) was exactly the same: a series of minor encounters setting the stage for the next big movie.
Bioware risked a lot with DA2. But that's what I like about Bioware. They dare to take risks. And I hope they will do it again.

I didnt expect an epic plot like DAO. But i expected a good  cohesive story, even though i knew everything else about the game was taken away pretty much. But didnt even get that, along with a dead mpty city , filled with 100 times as many bandits as civilians. It was supposed to be more personal more motionally, but it wasnt for me.  Primarily i didnt like Hawke at all, he wasnt my character, and just felt even less then a companion to me. I felt more out of my warden, even if he wasnt there when a person dies, he was close enough, like in the  human noble origin. Alistair had his past, Leliana had hers of betrayal as well. Sten has demons  of the sins he caused.

The empire strikes back isnt like this. For 1 it was a cohesive story, that followed str wars and proceeded into return of the jedi, DA2, is completely seperate from origins, and will be completley seperate from DA3, since BIoware chooses to not have some protagoniosts and tell different stories. There may be some connections, but thats all.

Taking risks is one thing, and primarily this was due to the leader designer leaving after DAO and having a console person take the lead, but i also feel that bioware just made stupid decisions, but of course the biggest was rushing it, but that may not have been their fault really. I dont speak for them, but if i was part of a team known for creating such epic rpgs as bioware has done in the past, and then came with DA2, id be embarrassed.

[Adrian68b]

Speaking about cities, AND COMPLETELY OUT OF TOPIC: there is a small book named "Invisible Cities" by Italo Calvino. It is staged as a dialogue between Marco Polo and Kublai Khan and it's about Marco Polo describing the cities he visited. Each description is very short (less than a page) and also completely imaginary and just amazing.

My viewpoint is that DA2 is a necessary link between two major plots: DAO and DA3. It has it's origin on DAO (Hawke escaping the Blight) and set up the stage for DA3. In this case DA2 has it's place in DA storyline.

[bEVEsthda]

Adrian68b wrote...

"Champion of Kirkwall" - a good title!

Or simply "Dragon Age: The Champion". It's similar with "Dragon Age: Origins" but clearly not Dragon Age 2.
Funny how marketing works sometimes.

Well, I dunno.  I think "Dragon Age: The Champion" would have risked to cause the same disaster as DA2.
'Champion of Kirkwall - a Dragon Age game' is better, because it can be interpreted as just being a game set in the Dragon Age world. And it would be obvious to everybody that it's not really Dragon Age. I mean, just look at the art. And then it's just combat, combat, completely linear, and dialogue is just for entertainment, not gameplay.

Eventually, as the years passes, and no real sequel to DA;O ever arrives, I would guess there would be some puzzlement and questions. But by then Bioware would have made a handsome profit on their scam.
Actually, I'm kinda tempted to say that this is somewhat what Bioware has been doing all the time, ever since after 'Throne of Bhaal' up to DA:O. So everybody buys those fluffy NWN games, KotOR and ME, suppose it'll have to do in the meantime, and wonders when Bioware are going to release a real Bioware-RPG again?

Modifié par bEVEsthda, 28 mars 2012 - 05:27 .

[Thor Rand Al]

Deleted

Modifié par Thor Rand Al, 28 mars 2012 - 12:59 .

[Ghidorah14]

You cant please everyone, so might as well aim to please the right demographic.

RPG nerds will eat these up, as they always have. They're a guaranteed source of profit, so aim to please them instead of the first-person shooter crowd who'll likely rent it once, at best, and then go back to screaming racial and homophobic slurs at each other in the latest COD intsallment.

[kingtigernz]

Some quality in the games environments would be nice.Lets be honest here DA2 had no quality in what I am referring to.You just have to compare it to The Witcher 2 to notice this.One game has breathe taking scenery with the musical score to go with it the other doesn't.

[Adrian68b]

What made Bioware's games so special was always the story. I played their games because (as NEDPEPPER perfectly put it) of the feeling of an interactive book. I really don't care so much about graphics, scenery, pointless exploration. If I want exploration I prefer the real world. Music is important for me as long as has connection with the story or in-game events. I would never play something like Skyrim because I see no point in solitary exploration of a virtual world. I always prefered to climb real mountains, even without dragons to battle.
Bioware created a special RPG niche, based of excellent story (of novel quality) team interaction and detailed environment (and I don't mean high resolution graphics). Great for immersion.
And because of this they have a big caring fan community. Now, with DAO and DA2 they even created their own fantasy world (even better). The fact that fans complained after DA2 (and I don't mean casual players) has another meaning: they care a lot, and they have expectations based of DAO and all previous games.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 28 mars 2012 - 07:35 .

[Adrian68b]

So, what exactly was wrong with DA2? Based on my initial experience with DA2 demo, and other fan complaints, a major issue could be the difficulty to get immersion in the first moments of Prologue. Maybe a longer cinematic at the beginning, about Hawke's family escape from Lothering (as bEVEsthda suggested) would have been a great help (AND fans would have loved it !!!). Also, the first few dialogue lines are weak. Getting "in game" is vital for a RPG. You miss that, you miss the story, because you don't care. Starting with the Aveline encounter things are much better, but for a lot of gamers it's just too late. First impression is very important; if it's bad, you are biased toward a negative attitude. I liked Varric's cinematics at the beginning, even the "embellished" encounter. But that first few seconds in the game proper turned me away from the story (in my first attempt with the demo). Months later I was able to overlook this weakness, and I REALLY enjoyed the game.
So why such a big effect for a few misplaced seconds? Thinking about DAO, the origin stories are mainly neutral and non-dramatic at start (the exception being the dwarf commoner). Yes, but DA2 begin in a middle of a big crisis (running for your life). A casual approach won't do.

Modifié par Adrian68b, 28 mars 2012 - 09:59 .