225 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark Scavenger]

Whatever the reason behind the Reaper's cycle could have been, it should have been a reason beneficial to the Reapers themselves. I myself find the one where the cycle serves the purpose of some kind of reproduction/evolution of the Reapers quite plausible.

Sovereign and Harbinger made an impression of intelligence, will and motivation beyond comprehension of organic civilizations. When I first played ME1 and encountered Sovereing, an analogy with Lovercraft's old ones crossed my mind. Something so horribly powerful that it is almost god-like, yet unlike anything anyone sane could even imagine.

The deus ex machina ending, however, made the Reapers into tools of an entity with a (at best) perverse logic - in essence glorified automatic vacuum cleaners devoid of free will. So, even if the Reapers did what they did just for fun, it would have worked for me better than what I've been presented.

[Accism]

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

I think that's all we really need to know, maybe all we can know. Sure there can be vague hints here or there (Are they connected to dark energy? is each Reaper a nation because each was made from a different species?) but a concrete explanation is impossible because they exist outside of our understanding. Honestly any other answer is always going to be disappointing because it can't encompass the magnitude of what the Reapers represent.

Modifié par Accism, 26 mars 2012 - 09:30 .

[Scarecrow_ES]

Accism wrote...

There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign.

Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, an accident. Your lives are measured in years and decades. You wither and die. We are eternal, the pinnacle of evolution and existence. Before us, you are nothing. Your extinction is inevitable. We are the end of everything.

We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it.

My kind transcends your very understanding. We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness. You cannot grasp the nature of our existence.

We have no beginning. We have no end. We are infinite. Millions of years after your civilization has been eradicated and forgotten, we will endure.

I think that's all we really need to know, maybe all we can know. Sure there can be vague hints here or there (Are they connected to dark energy? is each Reaper a nation because each was made from a different species?) but a concrete explanation is impossible because they exist outside of our understanding. Honestly any other answer is always going to be disappointing because it can't encompass the magnitude of what the Reapers represent.

I could be fine with this logic.  It isn't absolutely necessary to understand the enemy or its motivations... only its actions... to know it must be destroyed.  Do we need to know the "why" of the Reapers to feel satisfaction when they're finally eliminated from the galaxy?  No.  So we don't really need an explaination of the "why" to have a satisfying conclusion to the series.

Hell... even just throwing a line somewhere at the end... something like... " the cycle has run so many times that history has forgot why it even started.  The cycle just is, and so it continue for no greater reason than that" would be sufficient explaination.  Then BOOM!  Reapers dead, galaxy saved, happy reunion with the survivors, show happy multi-species celebrations and seed the imagery for the next potential game in the series... the end, roll credits.  Wow, this writing good endings thing is so easy.  How could BioWare not get this right?

[saracen16]

I thought the reasons were already made clear in the game.

So, no, I don't care for the OP much.

[ZtalkerRM]

[Scarecrow_ES]

saracen16 wrote...

I thought the reasons were already made clear in the game.

So, no, I don't care for the OP much.

Well if you understood the reason, maybe you could explain it to all the nearly 100% of the rest of us... since the game actually didn't say ANYTHING that made sense or wasn't full of plotholes galor.

[tetrisblock4x1]

saracen16 wrote...

I thought the reasons were already made clear in the game.

So, no, I don't care for the OP much.

The man vs machine theme which the ending stood for made sense in theory, but the catalysts words didn't match up with what we saw in the game. The reason it worked in Terminator 2 is because we get to see Sarah Connors memories (or maybe it was just a nightmare, but that's not the point) flashing back to a childrens playground where we see the synthetic vs human war begin with that childrens playground getting ****ing nuked. This is meant to make the audience sympathize with the innocent children and to hate the machines for what they've done. The Geth were much more likeable than the machines from Terminator, and therein lies the dilemna and where Bioware broke that golden rule: Show, don't tell.

[Scarecrow_ES]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

saracen16 wrote...

I thought the reasons were already made clear in the game.

So, no, I don't care for the OP much.

The man vs machine theme which the ending stood for made sense in theory, but the catalysts words didn't match up with what we saw in the game. The reason it worked in Terminator 2 is because we get to see Sarah Connors memories (or maybe it was just a nightmare, but that's not the point) flashing back to a childrens playground where we see the synthetic vs human war begin with that childrens playground getting ****ing nuked. This is meant to make the audience sympathize with the innocent children and to hate the machines for what they've done. The Geth were much more likeable than the machines from Terminator, and therein lies the dilemna and where Bioware broke that golden rule: Show, don't tell.

Even if the Geth were never made to be "sympathetic" as you say in ME2 and 3, the story still wouldn't make sense.  Soverign uses the Geth to wage war on and ultimately destroy organics.  All 3 games state that reapers sought to control the Geth, and ME1 says specifically that reapers revile the Geth (the Geth disgust them).  If we stick to the original plot from the first two games, where the reapers are only motivated to destroy advanced civilizations, the co-opting of the Geth makes reasonable sense.  But add the motivation from ME3 to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics. Then the plot of the first 2 games, and most of the 3rd, no longer makes sense.  It wouldn't make sense even if we continued to villianize the Geth in all 3 games.

[Accism]

"We must convince the Geth to attack the organics to stop the Geth from attacking the organics!" - plot of Mass Effect 1.

[78stonewobble]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...
It's not really a shot in the foot.  If you look at how this theme typically plays out in other story's, it involves the "hero" explaining the flaws in the logic.  It actually seems, at the end there, that the story's end might go that way...

Explaining to the Catalyst all the ways it has failed... how the cycle creates synthetics, destroys organics, destroys their civilizations, deletes them from history... and how in THIS cycle, synthetics and organics can live in harmony (EDI, the Geth).  Showing the Catalyst how much harm the cycle and the reapers have done, and why they're not needed anymore - showing the Catalyst that it IS the created, synthetic.  Then cue the happy ending.

All of this makes sense within the context of the existing story framework.  None of this could have every been explained to the Catalyst, since Shepard is the first to ever reach it.

Truthfully, the opportunity to get to know the Geth, to elevate them to true free will, then cause peace between them and the Quarians is perhaps the shining story achievement in the entire series, and is perhaps one of the best race reactions in all of gaming.  To remove this sort of opportunity would truly diminish, by a significant margin, the story of the series.

This!!! ... is a proper ending.

[78stonewobble]

I never understood why certain AI would want to exterminate, harvest, reap, use as batteries, kill off organic beings UNLESS it was a question about either self defence or survival due to lack of ressources.

If you have the ability travel across a galaxy there should be room and ressources enough for everyone.

Unless nigh immortal beings out of no rational reason whatsoever decides to multiply indefinately. Which is just stupid.



In this I much rather prefer fallible / non rational meatbags as antagonists.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 26 mars 2012 - 10:16 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

It's the fact that there can be a geth/quarian alliance sort of shot the man vs machine theme in the foot... if Bioware just rewrote that to remove the option of peace between man and machine that the ending would be much more accepted.

It's not really a shot in the foot.  If you look at how this theme typically plays out in other story's, it involves the "hero" explaining the flaws in the logic.  It actually seems, at the end there, that the story's end might go that way...

Explaining to the Catalyst all the ways it has failed... how the cycle creates synthetics, destroys organics, destroys their civilizations, deletes them from history... and how in THIS cycle, synthetics and organics can live in harmony (EDI, the Geth).  Showing the Catalyst how much harm the cycle and the reapers have done, and why they're not needed anymore - showing the Catalyst that it IS the created, synthetic.  Then cue the happy ending.

All of this makes sense within the context of the existing story framework.  None of this could have every been explained to the Catalyst, since Shepard is the first to ever reach it.

Truthfully, the opportunity to get to know the Geth, to elevate them to true free will, then cause peace between them and the Quarians is perhaps the shining story achievement in the entire series, and is perhaps one of the best race reactions in all of gaming.  To remove this sort of opportunity would truly diminish, by a significant margin, the story of the series.

I'm not sure if I could realistically expect a happy ending from talking the catalyst down... we've already seen 2 examples of how a person like TIM or Gavin Archer (Overlord DLC) could use AI to cause mass annihilation. If given the choice between a unity ending or an us vs them ending, I'd probably choose the latter, but I guess I don't have the faith in humanity to see everlasting peace as a long term possibility. There is always going to be Gavin Archers, TIMs, Hitlers and Stalins, and the more advanced our technology gets the more likely we'll end the existance of life, the universe and everything and that almost happened in Overlord thanks to Archers sick experiments with David and the AI. I wish I could stop been bleak and be an optimist instead, I really do. Maybe the Reapers have a point.

Thanks for helping put things into perspective for me though, I'd rep you if I could.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 26 mars 2012 - 10:23 .

[orangesonic]

they are send by and unknown civilization beyond the milky way, to destroy advanced civilizations here, so no one tries to go there... does it make any sense at all???

[Scarecrow_ES]

78stonewobble wrote...

I never understood why certain AI would want to exterminate, harvest, reap, use as batteries, kill off organic beings UNLESS it was a question about either self defence or survival due to lack of ressources.

If you have the ability travel across a galaxy there should be room and ressources enough for everyone.

Unless nigh immortal beings out of no rational reason whatsoever decides to multiply indefinately. Which is just stupid.



In this I much rather prefer fallible / non rational meatbags as antagonists.

Yeah, crazy beats flawed logic every time.

[jojon2se]

Well, from what I hear, Karpyshyn has apparently pretty much confirmed the old entropy theory, mentioned in the OP, as having been on the table, at some point.
I.e: The reapers try to limit use of mass effect technology, because it causes buildup of of dark ("spent") energy - hence the long periods of hibernation.

Many of the other ideas, that people mention, slots right into that theory, with little to no modification.

As for the current "ending" (or "cliffhanger" if you prefer) and remarks on flawed catalyst logic: If the "indoctrination theory" has indeed sussed out what the writers were going for, then the lack of a way to call the catalyst out on it verbally, may well be intentional, for redundancy reasons -- Harbinger has induced the terms and you reject it through your choice of metaphor.

[Scarecrow_ES]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Scarecrow_ES wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

It's the fact that there can be a geth/quarian alliance sort of shot the man vs machine theme in the foot... if Bioware just rewrote that to remove the option of peace between man and machine that the ending would be much more accepted.

It's not really a shot in the foot.  If you look at how this theme typically plays out in other story's, it involves the "hero" explaining the flaws in the logic.  It actually seems, at the end there, that the story's end might go that way...

Explaining to the Catalyst all the ways it has failed... how the cycle creates synthetics, destroys organics, destroys their civilizations, deletes them from history... and how in THIS cycle, synthetics and organics can live in harmony (EDI, the Geth).  Showing the Catalyst how much harm the cycle and the reapers have done, and why they're not needed anymore - showing the Catalyst that it IS the created, synthetic.  Then cue the happy ending.

All of this makes sense within the context of the existing story framework.  None of this could have every been explained to the Catalyst, since Shepard is the first to ever reach it.

Truthfully, the opportunity to get to know the Geth, to elevate them to true free will, then cause peace between them and the Quarians is perhaps the shining story achievement in the entire series, and is perhaps one of the best race reactions in all of gaming.  To remove this sort of opportunity would truly diminish, by a significant margin, the story of the series.

I'm not sure if I could realistically expect a happy ending from talking the catalyst down... we've already seen 2 examples of how a person like TIM or Gavin Archer (Overlord DLC) could use AI to cause mass annihilation. If given the choice between a unity ending or an us vs them ending, I'd probably choose the latter, but I guess I don't have the faith in humanity to see everlasting peace as a long term possibility. There is always going to be Gavin Archers, TIMs, Hitlers and Stalins, and the more advanced our technology gets the more likely we'll end the existance of life, the universe and everything and that almost happened in Overlord thanks to Archers sick experiments with David and the AI. I wish I could stop been bleak and be an optimist instead, I really do. Maybe the Reapers have a point.

Thanks for helping put things into perspective for me though, I'd rep you if I could.

Well, that's always the interesting idea... organic beings are flawed, and thus use flawed logic.  Organic beings create synthetic life, which is inevitably bound to the same flawed logic that was used in their creation.  In the absense of the organics that created them, synthetics have no choice but to rely on the systemically flawed logic - however, with cold precision of synthetics, the flawed logic is essential "perfect" logic (perfect application of a flawed system).  You see this idea in the Geth Heretics' following of Soverign as the result of a differing mathmatical computation system (as explained by Legion in ME2).

So some civilization creates the reapers as a solution to the man vs machine problem, which is a system based on flawed logic.  The reapers merely continue the cycle because noone has ever been around to point out to the Catalyst (apparently some sort of command and control agent within the system) WHY that logic just doesn't work.

Interestingly, another factor in the flaws of the Catalyst logic is the idea that synthetics would be the only, or even primary, threat to the sanctity of advanced organic civilization, even though even the ME series internally shows this to be false.  The Turians and Salarians nearly wipe out the Krogan with the Genophage.  Before that, the Krogan actually DO wipe out the Rachni.  Before that, the Krogan nearly wipe themselves out in nuclear war.

Regardless of where you start in the equation, it all ends up in the same place.

Thus, we work circularly back around to the idea the "no matter what, organics are a threat to themselves and must not be allowed the opportunity to destroy themselves, and so we'll destroy them before they have a chance to do it" sort of logic that so many man vs. machine epics are based on.

It seems like the ME3 ending plots dive into this idea whole-heartedly, but then make an immediate left turn into nowhere.

As a side note, for the sake of game plot, there always has to be conflict... and the whole "mis-use of advanced technology leading to some dangerous mad scientist stuff" is always a worthwhile device to use.  I see no reason to not continue the trend.  Yeah, man is it's own worst enemy.  Granted.  But design a race of synthetics designed purely to destroy man before he gets too advanced to destroy himself?  We gonna let that stand?  Naw.

[ile_1979]

Reasons and motives. Two separate thing to formulate in order to explain reaper behavior. Both could answer to the "why" question, but both are fundamentally different. The reasons could be deduced by the actions, while the motives could remain elusive.

What do we know about reaper invasions?

They are periodic and somewhat regular. I'm not sure if the 50K cycle was intended in ME1, but it was later canonized in ME2. What would periodic reaping achieve? The obvious answer is the object of reaping will be sufficiently "mature". Evolution-wise or tech-wise is not clear, although the technological feeding in "favorable" directions is evident.

Reapers spend large periods of time inactive in dark space. It is presumed they spend it in isolation because they are vulnerable while hibernating . This alludes to some limitations of reaper operations. Their power supplies are probably limited. Even if self regenerating, they can only allow them selves, relatively "short" periods of several centuries to achieve their goals.

The reapers reproduce by "harvesting" organics and mold them into reaper "bodies". This implies they want their numbers increased over time. Not a rational course of action for an immortal race. Even with battle losses in mind. It also leads to conclusion that reapers are by themselves sterile.

Reapers are capable in "augmenting" organics and synthetics, but do not seam capable of creating new life at all. They are masters of manipulation but incapable of creation. This seams very odd for a hyper-advanced species. Even today we are capable of limited creation of new species to serve our purposes. This leads to conclusion that what ever the reason for reaper "sterility" it is not technological, or they would have bread their own servants. It must be ideological or even more cryptic.

Which leads to he motives for the invasions. And the most room for speculation. The few hints dropped by the reapers reveal "salvation through destruction", "bringing order to the chaos of organic evolution" and "unfathomable reasons".

Some have already stated that the possible "reasons" for their harvesting "sessions" is reproduction. This would explain the preservation/salvation and even bringing order to chaos, but does not sound all that "beyond our capability to understand". Even a virus understands the basic need to reproduce, in fact it is all it does understand. On the other hand, the constant theme of the reapers is the "chaos of organic evolution" and them being the "pinnacle" of the evolution. So, is it possible that we are looking at a deeper more ideological conflict? Do the reapers fear the outcome of the chaotic evolution? Have they at some point in the past or future encountered some result of this evolution they were not able to cope/understand with? Maybe in the past they waged a war against this product and lost. So they retreated in dark space until the threat was gone. They come back every 50K in the hopes of finding some clue how to defeat the threat, by incorporating organic life into their own synthetic matrix and find the "cure", maybe even advance them selves to be strong enough for the future conflict. Maybe they even migrated from another galaxy where they have lost the war. Or if they won the war, but suffered heavy losses, they fear that this organic threat may spontanously reemerge and they are either trying to prevent it or understand it or both. Or if the conflict happens in the future, they are trying find the "root" of this threat and either destroy it or understand it.

Sorry for the long post,
What do you people think?

EDIT: it should be noted thay the reapers consider this product of organic evolution a threat to the "primitive" organics too.

Modifié par ile_1979, 26 mars 2012 - 11:21 .

[TieRantaSaurusWrex]

The only thing that would make sense to me and the serie...
From sovereign: "You exist because we allow it. You will end because we demand it." They don't need a reason we understand

[zer0netgain]

I see only one level of logic in the ending as presented.

The "creators" of the Reapers wanted to ensure synthetic life never destroyed ALL organic life in the galaxy. Seeing the creation of synthetic life as inevitable, they figured technologically advanced organics needed to be purged periodically to prevent this problem.

The Catalyst claimed it preserved these civilizations in Reaper form. In no way are we shown how any former civilization was "preserved" once it was turned into a Reaper. Whether the creators failed (end didn't turn out as they expected but the cycle was in motion) or if the creators felt mere existence without memory of past knowledge/experience/culture was all that mattered, I cannot say.

It does make sense that if Reapers are "alive" in any sense, they need raw materials. Hence, they cull the galaxy for more of what they need...believing they are actually helping their victims by their actions. "Yeah, we slaughtered most of you, turned a good number into mindless husks and liquified the rest of you into goo that went into making more of us, but HEY you were ascended into a higher form of being."

It would be important to remember that you must acknowledge that an alien civilization ultimately created the Reapers, and we do not know what rationale or values that civilization embraced. It's the only way you can defend the circular logic of how the Reapers work.

I felt this was foreshadowed, on some level, with the genophage in ME2. Mordin went on at length that with thousands of simulations and studies, the only option was genophage or genocide. Not wanting to utterly kill off the Krogan, the genophage was the only viable option. In ME3, somewhat uncharacteristically, Mordin has a change of heart...realizing that perhaps Maelon was right...some other outcome might have been possible.

If we presume that the creators of the Reapers concluded that no matter what, organic life would create synthetic life that would ultimately kill ALL organic life in the galaxy, the cycle of FINITE destruction of organics (and their created synthetics) every 50,000 years in favor of indefinitely preserving organic life in the galaxy makes sense.

[Alexraptor1]

- In the end, what started the Cycle is irrelevant, it simply... is.

Thats what I think it should be.

[Getorex]

How about sticking with the first, and best? Sovereign: "You are incapable of understanding."

There. Stick with the first and simplest and most satisfying. Leave it a mystery because we ARE incapable of understanding. Greg Bear with his "Anvil of God", Jack McDevitt's "The Engines of God" both deal with planet destroying/civilization destroying machines of some type and you NEVER learn why they do what they do. Both are EXCELLENT stories too. Bioware could have learned from them. They are REAL writers.

Or if you must...a variation of Berzerker weapons. The Reapers were originally built like doomsday weapons by long-gone alien civilizations at war with each other. The Reapers were built to utterly destroy enemies even if the enemies actually defeated the creating race.

Think that Star Trek episode where there is a planet destroying autobot that is virtually indestructible to the weapons available to the Star Fleet ships. This is a common theme in some sci-fi stories and it can work.

[Ninja Mage]

Here's my theory

The starchild is actually a sentient alien race made of space particles..like gas aliens..they
have psychic powers and can change their form

Anyway, they created the reapers as observers of the galaxy..but when more races came
into existence, the gas aliens became jealous and wanted to ''collect' the races. So every 1000
years they harvest the aliens as kind of a zoo...so to speak..and when they observe the races
creating synthetics..they use it as an excuse as to why they're killing them..but infact they just
feel jealous of the organics

[Tirigon]

The Reapers are actually just little spoilt brats, their father being Ctulhu, and the harvesting is a game. It is like an interglalactic StarCraft Tournament, and the Reaper with the most won games (i. e. harvested planets) gets all the girls.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Tirigon wrote...

The Reapers are actually just little spoilt brats, their father being Ctulhu, and the harvesting is a game. It is like an interglalactic StarCraft Tournament, and the Reaper with the most won games (i. e. harvested planets) gets all the girls.

That is almost as bad as the Shepard is indoctrinated theory.

[78stonewobble]

There's also the assumption that the penultimate development of life is a fusion of artificial and biological life.

I'm tempted to say this is a faulty assumption since we all know that only biological entities can evolve into angelic beings of pure energy right? RIGHT?

Oh wait that was another space magic series