225 réponses à ce sujet

[Scam_poo]

The cycle is a thing you cannot comprehend, batlin.

[Valkyre4]

spacehamsterZH wrote...

BECAUSE THEY CAN. That's all the explanation I ever needed.

Exactly...
And that is the explanation they ALWAYS gave you. From ME1 to ME2 to ME3.

Trying to make sense out of something that from the very begining was presented to you with the characteristic of "because we can" makes it ridiculous to expect that their actions could and should be explained using human logic, which again from the games was always presented as completely different and irrelevant, incomprehensible from synthetic logic.

[Merwanor]

The reasoning for the Reapers was supposed to stay a mystery, as said by Sovereign, it is beyond our comprehension.... And it was explained in 1 sentence at the end.... :S

I would much rather have to speculate on what the reason the Reapers had for doing what they did, than speculate on how on earth anyone could come up with such a unlogical and idiotic reason.

Modifié par Merwanor, 04 avril 2012 - 01:19 .

[BDelacroix]

Someone on another thread described it best (as did Steven King I think). We don't need to know their motives. We know they are bad and we want them gone. The monster is onlys cary until it has a face. We didn't need it to have a face.

[Valkyre4]

Merwanor wrote...

The reasoning for the Reapers was supposed to stay a mystery, as said by Sovereign, it is beyond our comprehension.... And it was explained in 1 sentence at the end.... :S

I would much rather have to speculate on what the reason the Reapers had for doing what they did, than speculate on how on earth anyone could come up with such a unlogical and idiotic reason.

unlogical and idiotic coming from your human logic, not their synthetic logic. And the Reaper motives still remain a mystery in large part, hence all these threads...

Idiotic by human standards was the fact that the Geth joined Saren, or that they joined forces with the Reapers in ME3.

Idiotic was also the way Legion describes geth "concesus" reasoning in making decisions. Dont try and act like you never saw that coming. You played 2 games where it was presented to you that synthetic logic is vastly different than human logic, and now you complain about their motives and that they make no sense whatsoever (by human standards lol).

In other words let me show you how equally idiotic and ilogical (by human standards) are peoples complaints regarding this specific matter:

Human logic is told that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic. However human logic wants to understand the reasoning behind synthetic logic. When synthetic logic explains (vaguely) its reasoning, human logic goes bananas and says that synthetic logic doesnt make sense to it. In other words human logic complains that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic when it is told from the very begining that it cant. Yet human logic still complains because it desperately needs for everything to make sense according to its reasoning...

Well if that is not the definition of justaposition then I dont know what is!

human logic...

Modifié par Valkyre4, 04 avril 2012 - 01:34 .

[DeinonSlayer]

I would say their ideal motive would simply be reproduction, with a dash of dark energy thrown in to resolve the glaring loose end that is Haestrom. Their original creators believed that dark energy was going to cause the death of the stars their organic forms depended on, as seen in ME2, and sought to immortalize themselves in a form that could survive without them. A form that could very well live on until the heat death of the universe. They have no plan for counteracting dark energy, and no intention to try to do anything about it - they're immune. They periodically return to process other species that they view as worthy of preservation, in order to bolster their numbers. Any species which reaches a certain level of technology which also lacks the traits they wish to add to their ranks will simply be destroyed.

tl;dr: Evil, arrogant machines which view themselves with infinite self-importance because they found a way to cheat death while the rest of us are doomed to cook with the stars we orbit. Nothing more.

[Siansonea]

The Reapers want our lunch money.

[stysiaq]

Their reasons should never be explained, period. They are supposed to be incomprehensible, and a human writer can't come up with something like that.

[Occulo]

They were lonely and wanted to make friends. I mean, literally.

...What? It's better than ghost twerp controlling them.

[WarpedDog]

My turn!
They are harvesting for 2 reasons:
1: For reproduction (As we've already seen).
2: Reapers are hybrids - both flesh and steel. As time passes, their organic parts "decay" and they loose their intellect in the process, eventually becoming little more than shells which must be guided by those wo can still think for themselves. Harvesting organic races is the only way to counteract this "decay", and the more genetic diversity among the individual races, the less raw material they need.

...Does that make any sense at all?

[Siansonea]

They're meanie heads, and that's just what meanie heads do?

[ADLegend21]

They only kill or ascend species that can create AI and leave other species who can't alone. Without the jump in technology humanity would have been spared from the cycle because we wouldn't have found the Charon Relay and probably would have "discovered" the citadel and been like the Protheans indoctrinating new species to our customs and things and if we survived for 50,000 years we would fail just like them.

[NICKjnp]

 Because secretly inside their reaper shells they have villain mustaches that they twirl as they plot our demise along side Casper the friendly ghost Star Child.

[Tirigon]

I must repeat what I said already:

It is a game for the reapers.

[Kalas82]

Valkyre4 wrote...

Merwanor wrote...

The reasoning for the Reapers was supposed to stay a mystery, as said by Sovereign, it is beyond our comprehension.... And it was explained in 1 sentence at the end.... :S

I would much rather have to speculate on what the reason the Reapers had for doing what they did, than speculate on how on earth anyone could come up with such a unlogical and idiotic reason.

unlogical and idiotic coming from your human logic, not their synthetic logic. And the Reaper motives still remain a mystery in large part, hence all these threads...

Idiotic by human standards was the fact that the Geth joined Saren, or that they joined forces with the Reapers in ME3.

Idiotic was also the way Legion describes geth "concesus" reasoning in making decisions. Dont try and act like you never saw that coming. You played 2 games where it was presented to you that synthetic logic is vastly different than human logic, and now you complain about their motives and that they make no sense whatsoever (by human standards lol).

In other words let me show you how equally idiotic and ilogical (by human standards) are peoples complaints regarding this specific matter:

Human logic is told that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic. However human logic wants to understand the reasoning behind synthetic logic. When synthetic logic explains (vaguely) its reasoning, human logic goes bananas and says that synthetic logic doesnt make sense to it. In other words human logic complains that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic when it is told from the very begining that it cant. Yet human logic still complains because it desperately needs for everything to make sense according to its reasoning...

Well if that is not the definition of justaposition then I dont know what is!

human logic...

And what exactly gives you the impression anything you just wrote is correct? Or are you trying to provoke? Cause your entire text makes no sense ...like at all. The Geths reasoning was well explained, ingame aswell as via codex, etc., you could translate it with a binary-communism.
Just to clarify something, synthetic-logic actualy doesn`t exist. Computer-code does exist, most sci-fi-autors take this as the fundament for the way their "robots" think.
And no matter where you look, even those realy cheesy Star Trek plots it most of the times stays true to beeing a practial, logic-driven way of thinking (machines with pinocchio-syndrom even go in that direction but try to be human).
ME makes no mystery bout its synthetic-logic or a.i. it`s mostly the same way it work in all Sci-fi.
You get it even slapped right in your face everytime you talk to EDI or the Geth.

At the the current state we are told the reapers motives, everything else is just speculation. Saying that these motives seem kinda strange and especially their way of handling their problem seems riducolous over the top is straight to the point.
Even if we assume that they are just "wrong" with their theory "the cylce", taking in account that they can be wrong about something..as proven often enough ingame, their plan looks as an attemp to solve the cycle in the most unpractical way possible and that`s the point were you don`t need to speculate about "synthetic-logic" to tell that this motiv-revalation was stupid.

"It is a thing you cannot comprehend" was absolutly fine, only Bond-Villains need to explain their motives/plans, with this sentence we knew everything we needed to know -> They came to destroy us, there is no reasoning with them and beating them will be hard as hell, done deal. And they remained an unknown threat which is more frightening then a moroning babbling threat.

Hell, even the ME2 explanation was atleast not that stupid, waiting till all the races were evolved to the max (and before they could become a thread) to get the maximum DNA-bonus out of harvesting them, probably for procreation (k the human-reaper was way beyond stupid too).
With the cycle-explanation we got in ME3 they became morons, their whole setup with the massrelays, the citadel, ect. is not practical if you just want to prevent organic life from creating synthetics which will someday perhaps kill organics.....they asked for getting a hardtime without any reason behind it  by providing all this technologie for nothing.
Besides they must know that their theory is wrong, they can`t be that stupid as not to realise Shepard and all this people shooting at them are organics..k minus the Geth...so organic life was never wiped out.
So they guessed that organic life might someday create synthetic life, which might some termiante organic life?
Whoooo man i sure as hell hope they don`t have "dreamers" and "poets" amongst them seeing what happens when they use their imagination.

No the only way this works is if the Space-God-Setup isn`t "real" or he`s lying..which actualy would make more sense than him telling Shep the truth.

[Ice Cold J]

Richard 060 wrote...

Ice Cold J wrote...

< SNIP, for the sake of space! >

With this realisation, and again, ruthless, emotionless machine logic, they decided to initiate a cycle of control, destruction and renewal, involving the relays and the Citadel. Civilisation is given a chance to flourish and prosper, and is then destroyed for the sake of preserving order, and allowing the next 'generation' to take over - for a time...

Unfortunately, the Reapers 'lost sight' of this over the eons, and eventually, the cycle would exist for it's own sake - the Reapers existing to control, and organics existing to BE controlled (in their perspective). And so it continues - until now, when Shepard stands precariously close to ending the cycle for good.

Don't know how a machine, even one as old as a Reaper, could lose sight of such a definitive goal, but your suggestion sounds pretty valid.

Modifié par Ice Cold J, 05 avril 2012 - 02:00 .

[Valkyre4]

Kalas82 wrote...

Valkyre4 wrote...

Merwanor wrote...

The reasoning for the Reapers was supposed to stay a mystery, as said by Sovereign, it is beyond our comprehension.... And it was explained in 1 sentence at the end.... :S

I would much rather have to speculate on what the reason the Reapers had for doing what they did, than speculate on how on earth anyone could come up with such a unlogical and idiotic reason.

unlogical and idiotic coming from your human logic, not their synthetic logic. And the Reaper motives still remain a mystery in large part, hence all these threads...

Idiotic by human standards was the fact that the Geth joined Saren, or that they joined forces with the Reapers in ME3.

Idiotic was also the way Legion describes geth "concesus" reasoning in making decisions. Dont try and act like you never saw that coming. You played 2 games where it was presented to you that synthetic logic is vastly different than human logic, and now you complain about their motives and that they make no sense whatsoever (by human standards lol).

In other words let me show you how equally idiotic and ilogical (by human standards) are peoples complaints regarding this specific matter:

Human logic is told that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic. However human logic wants to understand the reasoning behind synthetic logic. When synthetic logic explains (vaguely) its reasoning, human logic goes bananas and says that synthetic logic doesnt make sense to it. In other words human logic complains that it cannot comprehend synthetic logic when it is told from the very begining that it cant. Yet human logic still complains because it desperately needs for everything to make sense according to its reasoning...

Well if that is not the definition of justaposition then I dont know what is!

human logic...

And what exactly gives you the impression anything you just wrote is correct? Or are you trying to provoke? Cause your entire text makes no sense ...like at all. The Geths reasoning was well explained, ingame aswell as via codex, etc., you could translate it with a binary-communism.
Just to clarify something, synthetic-logic actualy doesn`t exist. Computer-code does exist, most sci-fi-autors take this as the fundament for the way their "robots" think.
And no matter where you look, even those realy cheesy Star Trek plots it most of the times stays true to beeing a practial, logic-driven way of thinking (machines with pinocchio-syndrom even go in that direction but try to be human).
ME makes no mystery bout its synthetic-logic or a.i. it`s mostly the same way it work in all Sci-fi.
You get it even slapped right in your face everytime you talk to EDI or the Geth.

At the the current state we are told the reapers motives, everything else is just speculation. Saying that these motives seem kinda strange and especially their way of handling their problem seems riducolous over the top is straight to the point.
Even if we assume that they are just "wrong" with their theory "the cylce", taking in account that they can be wrong about something..as proven often enough ingame, their plan looks as an attemp to solve the cycle in the most unpractical way possible and that`s the point were you don`t need to speculate about "synthetic-logic" to tell that this motiv-revalation was stupid.

"It is a thing you cannot comprehend" was absolutly fine, only Bond-Villains need to explain their motives/plans, with this sentence we knew everything we needed to know -> They came to destroy us, there is no reasoning with them and beating them will be hard as hell, done deal. And they remained an unknown threat which is more frightening then a moroning babbling threat.

Hell, even the ME2 explanation was atleast not that stupid, waiting till all the races were evolved to the max (and before they could become a thread) to get the maximum DNA-bonus out of harvesting them, probably for procreation (k the human-reaper was way beyond stupid too).
With the cycle-explanation we got in ME3 they became morons, their whole setup with the massrelays, the citadel, ect. is not practical if you just want to prevent organic life from creating synthetics which will someday perhaps kill organics.....they asked for getting a hardtime without any reason behind it  by providing all this technologie for nothing.
Besides they must know that their theory is wrong, they can`t be that stupid as not to realise Shepard and all this people shooting at them are organics..k minus the Geth...so organic life was never wiped out.
So they guessed that organic life might someday create synthetic life, which might some termiante organic life?
Whoooo man i sure as hell hope they don`t have "dreamers" and "poets" amongst them seeing what happens when they use their imagination.

No the only way this works is if the Space-God-Setup isn`t "real" or he`s lying..which actualy would make more sense than him telling Shep the truth.

No. with the cycle-explanation in ME3 , they did nothing more than confirm yet again what they said back in ME1:


- "Rundamentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING"

- "I am beyond your COMPREHENSION, I am Sovereign!"

-" We simply ARE"

-"My kind TRANSCENDS your understanding"

- "You cannot even GRASP the nature of our existence"

nothing more nothing less. And from the point of view of this thread, they did an excellent job of making us type walls of text , trying to speculate and explain something we were told we will never understand 5 years ago. Personally I really dont see much difference in how Reapers were presented in ME1 based on their motives, with what we see in ME3. They told us we wouldnt understand, and here we are... we dont understand.

But let me dance on this rythym a few more seconds, what actually confirms that what the star child told shepard was the truth? Are we sure that this is all the information we got? Is it impossible that the Star Child could actually provide more information that will make this moronic human explanation, become more logical? How are you so sure that this is completely destroyed and there is no way to explain it with more information in ways that will make sense?

In sort though, is there any point whatsoever to even try and make sense out of something that doesnt make sense at least at the moment? That is my main point.

I see people trying to find theories, to explain, to make sense out of something that doesnt. And they keep posting and posting and posting and more walls of text etc etc...

trying to logically make sense out of something that simply doesnt. And it doesnt make sense ON PURPOSE.

If that is not the epitome of irony then I dont know what is.

[Grimgaww]

Valkyre4 wrote...



No. with the cycle-explanation in ME3 , they did nothing more than confirm yet again what they said back in ME1:


- "Rundamentary creatures of blood and flesh. You touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING"

- "I am beyond your COMPREHENSION, I am Sovereign!"

-" We simply ARE"

-"My kind TRANSCENDS your understanding"

- "You cannot even GRASP the nature of our existence"

nothing more nothing less. And from the point of view of this thread, they did an excellent job of making us type walls of text , trying to speculate and explain something we were told we will never understand 5 years ago. Personally I really dont see much difference in how Reapers were presented in ME1 based on their motives, with what we see in ME3. They told us we wouldnt understand, and here we are... we dont understand.

But let me dance on this rythym a few more seconds, what actually confirms that what the star child told shepard was the truth? Are we sure that this is all the information we got? Is it impossible that the Star Child could actually provide more information that will make this moronic human explanation, become more logical? How are you so sure that this is completely destroyed and there is no way to explain it with more information in ways that will make sense?

In sort though, is there any point whatsoever to even try and make sense out of something that doesnt make sense at least at the moment? That is my main point.

I see people trying to find theories, to explain, to make sense out of something that doesnt. And they keep posting and posting and posting and more walls of text etc etc...

trying to logically make sense out of something that simply doesnt. And it doesnt make sense ON PURPOSE.

If that is not the epitome of irony then I dont know what is.

LOL , "INCAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING"

So Sovereign said that and you're saying it cannot be changed ???
So what's the point of making this game ?

The whole point is to stop the cycle against all odds and it doesn't matter if it will
end in a good or tragic way but in a reasonable way.

Oh boy Star Child, Where did you came from ?

Modifié par Grimgaww, 05 avril 2012 - 08:47 .

[Valkyre4]

^^ What are you "loling" about? Bioware wrote the script not me...

if Bioware wants to present Reapers like something impossible to understand and then goes on to make them impossible to understand in ME3, is not my decision or my problem...

I merely point out how pointless and stupid it is to try and make sense out of this for the time being at least. If Bioware releases something that will try and make sense out of it, by all means i am with you. At the moment there is no point.

[PaxtonFetel]

my version
Horn - a giant incredible power relay is capable of quickly moving objects in a neighboring galaxy.
Horn has already been built by the creators once reapers, and through him they retreated to the neighboring galaxy after which it was destroyed to prevent further prosecution of the reapers.

The creators of the reapers have not lost the war, and just tired of the endless battle of attrition, needed a new way and break.

Reapers are not decided on the immediate recovery of Horn's because they do not have enough strength for a successful landing in a neighboring galaxy.

The purpose of the harvest every 50,000 years is simple - to create a sufficiently powerful army reasonable rippers for the final battle with the creators.

This explains the interest of humanity, and Shepard as a material for a truly terrible and powerful Reaper ready to head battle with the creators.

Modifié par PaxtonFetel, 05 avril 2012 - 11:11 .

[mitthrawuodo]

The race that the reapers first came from was the race that discovered mass effect tech and used it for the own means. They didn't even have to use relays! However, in doing so they created an abundance of dark energy which was accelerating the ageing of the galaxy which caused stars to collapse into black holes. They first planned to use the relays to contain and feed off the dark energy while also forming anchors in space that slowed everything from falling into the centre of the universe. The Omega 4 relay was developed later.

Unfortunately, to do this the race had to become the first reapers who are powered by dark energy which corrupted them into thinking they had become gods. They saw organics as play things and made the relays and CItadel as entertainment. But then one race start becoming dominant began experimenting with dark energy. Fearful of their demised the reapers first tried to reason with the new race but they were attacked and so were forced to destroy the other race but by the end only one damaged first reaper was left. Deluded into thinking it was a God it built a new body to transfer its mind into and so was born Harbinger. Unfortunately this body couldn't travel without relay as the new body couldn't take the strain due to him using inferior resources but he did introduce a power weapon system and he built a new indoctrination system - which combined the conquered races ability to communicate thoughts and dark energy in his new body - to control and destroyer other races that would threaten it.

From the wreckage of his old body and his breathen he made the citadel as a way to make sure that all advance races followed a path that meant if they grew too advance there would be a centre he could destroy so that he could divide and conquer. What was left of his breathen and their minds he combined to form the second reaper who would stand watch over the galaxy to start so that Har binger would know when to strike. That reaper was Sovereign.

Harbinger and Sovereign then used the Citadel and the bodies of the dead race to create new reapers who had the god-complex with all the new body weapons and indoctrination powers. It was now Harbinger saw that the new reapers needed a constant power supply so he had them all connected to the relays so that when ever they were used the reapers got stronger. Sovereign the vanguard was linked to a newly made Omega 4 relay which drew power from black holes in the centre of the universe to stat awake.

Harbinger was exclusively linked to the Citadel for his power but this would only allow him to awake for 100,000 and the others in hibernation would last less (this was small time to reapers). They then decided that every 50,000 years they would "uplift" the most advance race to make new reapers and replenish their own power by absorbing indoctrinated slaves and weaker advance races. Their fear of losing their godly power drove them to this.

All that remain was sending what ever first reaper tech around to be hidden by encasing them in asteroids that even if they did hit a planet would remove life from that planet. (Unforseen circumstances meant this did not alwys happen as one of there asteroids wiped out the dinosaurs but left smaller animals un-harm). So for over 65 million years the cycle has happened with constant manipulation by the reapers creating a regular pattern. Even Sovereign had been destroyed and resurrected several time. Only now with the Crucible and the unknown Catalyst can the reapers be stopped...

Modifié par mitthrawuodo, 05 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[General dripik]

They were simply an unknowable force. Like God is supposed to be to humans or what humans are to a chicken.

They didn't need some silly reason for existing. Do humans exist for a factual reason?

[ile_1979]

AwesomeName wrote...

ile_1979 wrote...

Let's reconsider the reaper's notion of"order" again. Chaos or entropy is the state of the least energy possible for a system. For a complex system of organic and inorganic matter, the greater the chaos component the lower the level of organisation of matter is. So organic matter is higher on the level of "order" then inorganic, it takes more energy to sustain its presence. By extension, life is on the higher order the lifelessness. Sapient life on the higher order then non-sapient life. Technologically advanced species on higher order then primitive sapient species. The entire evolution of matter->life->intelligence is a process of reducing chaos and increasing order. Even artificial intelligence falls into this category. AI's are the higher level of order then organics. And then Sovereign comes along and states that their(reaper) goal is to impose order on the chaos of organic evolution. This kind of contradicts everything about chaos and order as we define it. By removing advanced life from the galaxy, the reapers actually increase the entropy of the galaxy not the order of it. So we must conclude that one of three things are in place here.
1. The big squid was not telling the truth.
2. The reapers notion of order and chaos is either reverse or completely misaligned with ours.
3. The universal translator malfunctioned.

Wouldn't homogenous, uniform, plain matter be more ordered than, say, a human being, which is a much more complicated configuration of "stuff"?  That sounds like increasing chaos, to me.  Which would make sense since that's how the world works.

Well no, not in the way we define order and chaos (enthorpy) at least. Take this example into account:
If you let loose a quantity of molecular gas into a previously empty space (say a room) the gas will spread out on its own into every corner of the room evenly untill all the resultant motion of the molecules that remains is the brownian motion. This is the minimum energy state of the gass. The state of chaos. All the components are ruled by the laws of chaos, and the system can not change it's state on its own, without outisde influence. On the other hand if you were to somehow take all gas and place it into one half of the room and setup a force field to hold it there, the system is now of higher order. For it to remain stable this way, you need a constant outside influence (energy imput), in this case the force field. Even the act of gathering the gas is part of this energy.