300 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethys1]

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.

Modifié par Lethys1, 26 mars 2012 - 05:17 .

[CavScout]

The rebuttal will be "it's indoctrination!"

[Carnage752]

That's true. I thought that myself.

However, I would be fine with Bioware changing this aspect and expanding on the theory, as well as adding more closure.

[UrgentArchengel]

Shep is better off dead then either, but IT is the only way I see a cheap way out for EA...I mean Bioware.

[SC0TTYD00]

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

[blooregard]

I thought the reason you only have the destroy ending for low EMS is because in bringing the galaxy to the reapers you ultimately sucked at it so the reapers didn't see much use for you and simply left you with the destroy ending and you ended up dead anyway.

[Admiral H. Cain]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

Right... 

So why are the events from the beam to the Catalyst EXACTLY the same?

[Lethys1]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

So then why even present this to you in the first place instead of just killing you?  It's a lot of pomp and circumstance to just present you lightly with the idea that everyone died.

Yet wouldn't the reapers bask in your negative emotion at the destruction of earth, Harbinger in particular?  This answer doesn't make sense and doesnt fit the MO of reapers.

[imtwocats]

The reason the destroy option is the only one offered when your EMS is low is because the pathetically small fleet that you gathered was completely obliterated by the reapers, thus removing the need to have a trump card (indoctrinated Shepard) because the reapers already won.

I assume they left this in so the players with a bad score won't just get a "everyone dies, the end" ending.

Though of course this is all theory.

Modifié par imtwocats, 26 mars 2012 - 04:54 .

[jumpingkaede]

Hmm. Though not completely onboard, it could be related to Harbinger's efforts to indoctrinate you proportional to the amount of resistance that the Alliance is putting up.

[Orthodox Infidel]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

Umm, what?

We're told shooting that thing kills all Reapers. Why would the Reapers allow you to do that under any circumstances? They should want to indoctrinate you regardless of EMS simply to stop you from blowing them up.

[SC0TTYD00]

Lethys1 wrote...

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

So then why even present this to you in the first place instead of just killing you?  It's a lot of pomp and circumstance to just present you lightly with the idea that everyone died.

Yet wouldn't the reapers bask in your negative emotion at the destruction of earth, Harbinger in particular?  This answer doesn't make sense and doesnt fit the MO of reapers.

Dunno, that's the best answer I can come up with based on the data I have.

Ask Bioware? XD

[Bill Casey]

Without viable military opposition, the Reapers have less incentive to try as hard to brainwash Shepard. Therefore, Shepard can fight off the indoctrination effects more easily, but it doesn't really matter because he doesn't live through it...


If Indoctrination Theory isn't true, why do The Reapers give Shepard more options if he has a bigger military opposition?

Modifié par Bill Casey, 26 mars 2012 - 04:57 .

[tommythetomcat]

Dare I say there is...

Lots of speculation for everyone in this thread

[Personuknow]

In terms of Indoctrination Theory, I interpret choosing a Destroy ending where Shepard doesn't survive (i.e. has too low EMS because he didn't play multiplayer, lol) as Shepard warding off Indoctrination by the Reapers, but nonetheless succumbing to the wounds both physical and mental left in their wake.

[Lethys1]

imtwocats wrote...

The reason the destroy option is the only one offered when your EMS is low is because the pathetically small fleet that you gathered was completely obliterated by the reapers, thus removing the need to have a trump card (indoctrinated Shepard) because the reapers already won.

I assume they left this in so the players with a bad score won't just get a "everyone dies, the end" ending.

Though of course this is all theory.

Why go through it all?  Why wouldn't you just be dead in that scenario?

This is a game where there is an option to skip all plot dialog....of course they aren't going to pull something like this over everyone.  Indoc theory is just wrong.

[SC0TTYD00]

I want my mommie!

[Dreogan]

Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Don't forget even if indoctrination were true, they failed to sell it as what was happening to the character. The fact that there's such confusion in the audience is evidence enough that the storyteller failed to express themselves.

It's possible to hide nuggets and guns of foreshadowing throughout a plot, only to blow it in the reveal. If indoctrination is true, then it is a failed reveal.


Of course, to the true Believers, this is only proof of indoctrination.

Modifié par Dreogan, 26 mars 2012 - 05:07 .

[jumpingkaede]

Orthodox Infidel wrote...

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Because, the reapers dont really care about Indoctrinating you as much. EMS is so low and your armies are so weak that they know they have won anyway whether they indoctrinate you or not.

Umm, what?

We're told shooting that thing kills all Reapers. Why would the Reapers allow you to do that under any circumstances? They should want to indoctrinate you regardless of EMS simply to stop you from blowing them up.

Your forgetting that IF he's indoctrinated there is no shooting of anything that kills all Reapers.  

He's simply indoctrinated and then he's dead (or whatever).  He never goes up the beam.  He never talks to the AI Star Kid.  He never makes a decision one way or the other.  So Harbinger indoctrinates him, sees that the Alliance is being crushed, then simply lets Shepard go on his way.  Game over. 

You're free to assume the Reapers win and, in fact, if you're going to believe any of the myriad lies that Hudson/Walters told us there is an ending that the Reapers are supposed to win in anyway.

Lethys1 wrote...

imtwocats wrote...

The
reason the destroy option is the only one offered when your EMS is low
is because the pathetically small fleet that you gathered was completely
obliterated by the reapers, thus removing the need to have a trump card
(indoctrinated Shepard) because the reapers already won.

I assume they left this in so the players with a bad score won't just get a "everyone dies, the end" ending.

Though of course this is all theory.

Why go through it all?  Why wouldn't you just be dead in that scenario?

This
is a game where there is an option to skip all plot dialog....of course
they aren't going to pull something like this over everyone.  Indoc
theory is just wrong.

It's not wrong because it fits the evidence best.

It probably is wrong because it wasn't intended by Bioware to fit the evidence.

Modifié par jumpingkaede, 26 mars 2012 - 05:03 .

[KillerHappyFace]

Because, as many have said, the Reapers don't care as much. Since they can easily wipe the floor with the combined fleet, all they want to do is fool you, keep you occupied. Even just giving Shepard some doubts (ie, catalyst will burn everything) should slow him/her down enough to prevent any further threat.

Why not kill Shepard instead? They want Shepard alive for study or something -- Shepard is pretty much the awesomist person in the Cycle. Harby says so himself.

If you bring a sizeable force, the Reapers' victory is a bit less assured, so they try to bring Shepard over to their side just in case.

[TJX2045]

 

Lethys1 wrote...
This is a game where there is an option to skip all plot dialog....of course they aren't going to pull something like this over everyone.  Indoc theory is just wrong.

 

But this is also a series where dialogue is a HUGE influence on the game. The skip option is meant for people who are replaying the game, NOT playing it for the first time. If you skipped all of the dialogue on your first play through, you should just go play an FPS or Multiplayer game with no story. I mean Bioware couldn't stress enough in this series that dialogue mattered.

If someone skipped all the dialogue on the first play through they have no one to blame but themselves for the "over their head" plot.

That being said, there are too many holes in the plot for the indoctrination theory to be proven 100% wrong. It's not likely, but it's not impossible either.

Modifié par TJX2045, 26 mars 2012 - 05:03 .

[Lethys1]

tommythetomcat wrote...

Dare I say there is...

Lots of speculation for everyone in this thread

Actually, I'd say it's the opposite.  The thread completely dismantles nearly 20 mins worth of evidence of Indoc Theory in one sentence.  It makes it clear that the endings are just awful and not open to interpretation.  

The "speculation" referred to by devs has to do with, oh man what cool planet are they on, or, wow wonder how the turians and quarians will live.  Not whether Shep is indoctrinated.

[Darthlawsuit]

Because the writers don't know how to write.......

[TheProfessor234]

Also, if you do have that really low EMS or whatever it is that matters, when you get your final cut scene, it shows everything getting blown to hell and back. Probably the one true difference between any of the endings, funny enough.

It's probably supposed to mean that the Reapers are killing everything, since you have so little.

[Lethys1]

TJX2045 wrote...

 

Lethys1 wrote...
This is a game where there is an option to skip all plot dialog....of course they aren't going to pull something like this over everyone.  Indoc theory is just wrong.

 

But this is also a series where dialogue is a HUGE influence on the game. The skip option is meant for people who are replaying the game, NOT playing it for the first time. If you skipped all of the dialogue on your first play through, you should just go play an FPS or Multiplayer game with no story. I mean Bioware couldn't stress enough in this series that dialogue mattered.

If someone skipped all the dialogue on the first play through they have no one to blame but themselves for the "over their head" plot.

That being said, there are too many holes in the plot for the indoctrination theory to be proven 100% wrong. It's not likely, but it's not impossible either.

It's not 100% wrong because DLC can manipulate the content such that it's made true.  However, as it stands right now, the devs never intended indoctrination and I am absolutely positive of it based on the above.

And why would BioWare act surprised at this drama if they planned indoc theory and knew it was coming all along?  Just from a real life PR perspective, their actions disproved indoc theory.

And the ME3 twitter feed isn't going to kill the only positive way for the most hardcore fans to look at the ending of the trilogy they spent $200 on by saying no to the theory.