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The Real Reason Indoc Theory Is Wrong....Has To Do With Low Effective Military Strength


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#251
CavScout

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Rafe34 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
Please list the 15 plot holes. Before wasting time, be sure you understand what plot hole means.


A plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic established by the story's plot, or constitutes a blatant omission of relevant information regarding the plot. These include such things as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline. 


1. Shepard gives in to the Starchild without questioning him/her. Unlikely behaviour of character.

2. Normandy is fleeing the scene. Joker would never leave Shepard behind.   Unlikely behaviour of character. 

3. The Mass Effect Relays do not destroy systems like they do in Arrival. No explanation is given for why. Impossible event.

4. The Starchild could have just opened up the Citadel back in Mass Effect 1 if he was the Citadel. There was no reason for Sovereign's assault. Event that contradicts earlier event in the storyline.

5. The same wave that converts all life to organic/synth hybrids also knocks the Normandy out of the sky. Why does it damage a ship? Illogical event.

6. The Synthesis ending solves nothing. The organic/synth hybrids will create synthetics again, there is no reason given why they would not, and thus you have the original problem all over again. Illogical event.

7. The Starchild specifically says Shepard will be killed in the Destroy ending. Yet he can survive. So the StarChild is lying to you, and thus there is no reason to listen to him regarding anything else. Illogical event.

8. The pistol you find has an unlimited clip. You don't have to reload either. Impossible event.

9. The crew that steps out of the Normandy was back on earth. The same two people that were with you in the final assault can step out of it. Impossible event.

10. Shepard can survive the destroy ending, and he regains consciousness back on earth. It is not possible for a human to survive atmospheric re-entry, not to mention he'd suffocate prior to doing so anyway. Remember the beginning of ME2? Impossible event.

11. Why does Hackett contact Shepard as if he knows Shepard is alive? All the reports said Shepard were dead, but he doesn't act surprised at all. Illogical event.

12. When Shepard first comes to after being by the laser beam, s/he is closer to the beam than where s/he was when the laser hit. Simple laws of physcis make this an: Impossible event.

13. Shepard's helmet is cleanly blown off without taking her head off with it. Impossible event.

14. Anderson says he came in from a different area than Shepard, (once they get to the room where you fight TIM), yet there is only one way out of the room, and that leads only to the area where Shepard came from. Impossible event.


So sue me. I can only think of 14 off the top of my head. :P

There's a ton more, I'm sure.


1) Not a plot hole. You simply don't like it. You are presuming the Catalyst is wrong.

2) Not a plot hole. Certainly unexplained scene but not a plot hole.

3) Not a plot hole. Asteroid smashing relay blows up star system. No asteroids in ending.

4) Not a plot hole. You presume Catalyst has full control of the Citadel. It is show that the Crucible is needed to active the Catalyst.

5) Same as 2. We don't even know what and/or where the Normandy is.

6) You presume much. Why is it inevitable that synthetic/organic hybrids would create synthetics again? Why is it inevitable that there will be a war between synthetics and organics when organics were made into organic/synthetic hybrids? Not a plot hole.

7) The Catalyst does not "specifically" say Shepard will be killed. False assertion.

8) Game play mechanic. Doesn't prove anything.

9) Normandy scene is unexplained. You have no idea what occurred. Unexplained =/= plot hole.

10) You don't even know if he is on Earth. Even if now, heroic survival is not unheard of in ME. ME2 shows us that impossible is really possible.

11) Shep and Anderson where talking up a storm on the communicator prior.

12) We don't see what happens to Shep when hit by the beam. Simple laws of physics says most things in ME are impossible.

13) Sheps armor is all but blow-off. It happens because it shows us it happened. You can't claim what the game shows you didn't happen.

14) They clearly say the walls and stuff are moving, shifting.

I should sue since you didn't even come up with 14... and you kept recycling the Normandy over and over.

#252
Va1us

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Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.



The answer is simple, because you deserved it.  If you truly have such a low EMS score then your heart wasn't even remotely in it.  You did the bare minimum and for that Earth suffers, obviously.  You didn't break indoctrination (since you don't see the breath scene) you experience no hope for your crewmates (thus no one walks out of the Normandy)  and nobody wins, everyone dies.  You're a jerk lol (not you per se, I'm speaking in general terms.  The Shepard that barely tried).  That's why.  You don't break indoctrination, you just let everyone die.

#253
sH0tgUn jUliA

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I'd just not go with low EMS. I mean it would be stupid if you really wanted to kick the reapers in the daddybags or at least have a chance at it. Max it. And if the MP is dead, you fix the file so it is -- they really need to separate the two.

I'm just wondering how they will try to make sense of the R G B crap, and the gasp, and the surreal shoot your mirror symbol (Anderson) and wound yourself without going into indoctrination. I don't think it's possible. Because if that's all we get and it's just like the starchild saying "You're getting these three choices because I said so and that's all you get, and I don't have to explain anything to you because I'm the absolute authority around here. If you don't like it, tough noogies." My game ends with this screen:

Image IPB

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 27 mars 2012 - 02:34 .


#254
The Smitchens

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CavScout wrote...

Don't you think it is funny to invoke "you need to think" when you're basing a theory on the idea that Indoctrination Theory is proved because Shep is not shown being indoctrinated?


I R THINK!!!!!
Image IPB

#255
CavScout

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Rafe34 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You dont' love the ending, that's why you ascribe to a fan theory so you can disregard the current ending.


LOL wow...I dont like the ending becuase I spent 2 min thinking about it and discuss it with other players. You do realize thats what people have done for inception, blade runner, and shutter island right? or how about 2001 a space odyssey? Oh you trolls, stay classy. though I will still listen to ya if you come up with something better then IT. I love having inteligant discussions about stuff like this


Untenable position results in name calling. Nice one....


You've been calling people who believe in IT names in pretty much every post you made.

It almost seems like you have a personal stake in proving it wrong, like it did something bad to you.

You wouldn't happen to be a Bioware writer, would you?


Indoctrination Theory Check-List

[ ] Accuse doubters of being trolls
[ ] Accuse doubters of being BioWare plants

You hit them all, congrats!

#256
effortname

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Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case? Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then? Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination? Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case? It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.


Gonna requote myself since everyone ignored it:

You can view the destroy choice as the Reapers having to contend with your own mind checking the reality of the situation. If they took away the option to defeat indoctrination, your mind would instantly know something is wrong and they'd have trouble maintaining the illusion. However, if you have low EMS it's assumed that you're a sub-par Shepard anyway, so it's much easier for the Reapers to trick you. You're offered the destroy option alone because they were able to trick your mind enough that all options lead to indoctrination anyway. Thus, they had no need to make more than 1 choice.



#257
Rafe34

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CavScout wrote...
*snip*


Did you even read the definition I provided? They are all plotholes, whether they fit your own definition is irrelevant. Sorry that you don't like the definition, but that is what a plothole is, despite what you might believe about it.

Not to mention, you failed to read my post.

The problem with #1 has nothing to do with whether the Catalyst is telling the truth, it has to do with Shepard not even trying to dispute him, or talk to him, but just taking the kid at his word. It's SHEPARD who is OOC here, not the Catalyst.

Unexplainable scene IS a plothole, lol. Jeez, you're just such an obvious troll. I'm done here.

Modifié par Rafe34, 27 mars 2012 - 02:38 .


#258
hexediter

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CavScout wrote...

Rafe34 wrote...

CavScout wrote...

ryuasiu wrote...

CavScout wrote...
You dont' love the ending, that's why you ascribe to a fan theory so you can disregard the current ending.


LOL wow...I dont like the ending becuase I spent 2 min thinking about it and discuss it with other players. You do realize thats what people have done for inception, blade runner, and shutter island right? or how about 2001 a space odyssey? Oh you trolls, stay classy. though I will still listen to ya if you come up with something better then IT. I love having inteligant discussions about stuff like this


Untenable position results in name calling. Nice one....


You've been calling people who believe in IT names in pretty much every post you made.

It almost seems like you have a personal stake in proving it wrong, like it did something bad to you.

You wouldn't happen to be a Bioware writer, would you?


Indoctrination Theory Check-List

[ ] Accuse doubters of being trolls
[ ] Accuse doubters of being BioWare plants

You hit them all, congrats!


Well IT believers make perfect troll targets because most of them want to believe it is true because they have a strong attachment to the game, so when you bate them they often emotionally respond in ways that are satisfactory to a troll.  That isn't true for everyone though, also mr. cavscout you haven't responded to my rebuttal.

http://social.biowar...2466/9#10672986

Modifié par hexediter, 27 mars 2012 - 02:41 .


#259
Crusina

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there is an official storyline that they can't deviate from unless they retcon huge parts of the games and books and stuff.

Grayson dies no matter what, that's official, something that can't be changed by any actions you take in the game. It's official cannon.


The point I'm trying to get, is that people who say having destruction only choice when having low EMS invalidates the indoctrination theory, are wrong because you CAN have a super bad ending that doesn't change the Mass Effect story.

Mass Effect 2 is the ultimate example, because as it was stated, Commander Shepard dying in the Suicide mission is just a really bad critical mission failure, an easter egg of sorts if you will.

It seems like the Low EMS rating that "destroys" the earth, is most likely Mass Effect 3's version of the worst ending in Mass Effect 2.




BUT WHY DO THEY CARE TO INDOCRINATE HIM ANYWAYS?!?!?!





Shepard was the one who enabled Sovereign to be defeated in the first game.

The Reapers clearly took an interest in him afterwards.



In Mass Effect 2, its not exactly stated, but its a fact that on Horizon, The Illusive Man was the one who leaked the information out that Shepard's Squadmate (Kaiden or Ashley) were on horizon.

Before you know it, the collectors attack the colony. Why? Because they are interested in Shepard, and ANYONE associated with him.

They wanted his body in the beginning of the game, and throughout the game harbinger states "keep shepard alive" and other quotes like that.



Shepard Represents the best this cycle has, as the asari councilor says "you've become the sole ray of light in a very dark night"

If the Reapers kill Shepard, he becomes a Martyr, which is a very dangerous thing to have when you are fighting with your backs against the wall. People would rally together to fight for their lives, and to honor Shepard.

Every single Reaper is 50,000 years old. You really think they want to lose more then they need to? Lets tally:

Shepard: killed Sovereign, and three destroyer class Reapers.

Turians: Confirmed from the Codex to have destroyed a few themselves, even some Sovereign class ones, the most powerful ones from space battles alone, and when the krogan land to Palaven the codex states they destroyed even more with Nukes.

And I have no doubt the other races have killed one or two at the very least.



So if they kill Shepard, the galaxy has a rallying cry...but if they indoctrinate Shepard...what hope do they have? The most famous, the strongest willed person in the galaxy fell to the might of the Reapers, their is no hope, may has well give up.

Which makes for easy pickings. So that is why I believe they want Shepard, because if they galaxy loses her to indoctrination, then they lose all hope.

50,000 years for one reaper to be created...they want a fight with the least amount of loses because of that. The best way to do that is to destroy everything that gives you hope, and in this case, it is Commander Shepard.

Modifié par Crusina, 27 mars 2012 - 02:42 .


#260
FlyinElk212

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Lethys1 wrote...
So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

Incorrect. You attempt to overcome Indoctrination but cannot because your EMS is too low. While you're comatose/being Indoctrinated, Earth is wiped out because your army wasn't strong enough to hold Earth while the process was happening.

Hence why Shepard only wakes up if your EMS is very very high. Your incredibly strong military gave you enough time to overcome Indoctrination & wake up.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 27 mars 2012 - 02:45 .


#261
CavScout

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Rafe34 wrote...

CavScout wrote...
*snip*


Did you even read the definition I provided? They are all plotholes, whether they fit your own definition is irrelevant. Sorry that you don't like the definition, but that is what a plothole is, despite what you might believe about it.

Not to mention, you failed to read my post.

The problem with #1 has nothing to do with whether the Catalyst is telling the truth, it has to do with Shepard not even trying to dispute him, or talk to him, but just taking the kid at his word. It's SHEPARD who is OOC here, not the Catalyst.

Unexplainable scene IS a plothole, lol. Jeez, you're just such an obvious troll. I'm done here.


You don't get to redefine "plot hole" to mean something you "don't like". And that is all you can really claim bout Shep and the Catalyst. You don't like it. It's not a plot hole.

That you just ran from a point for point rebuttal is telling and rather typical.

And as you run, you call names. Image IPB

#262
THEE_DEATHMASTER

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THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

My favorite is how the approach to Anderson in the final area is 1) collector ship parts 2) Shadowbroker's ship parts and 3) normandy parts leading up to 4) illusive man's favorite room

The indoctrination is using parts of your mind to construct the area like the Geth virtual world.


Here's some shots, only just recognized some Omega in there too.

Link (just in case): i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dbzakj/Untitled-3.jpg
Better link: i.imgur.com/oHO5N.jpg

Image IPB

Modifié par THEE_DEATHMASTER, 27 mars 2012 - 02:49 .


#263
CerealWar

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Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.



Low EMS = Space Battle Lost

#264
DarkBladeX98

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maybe because in that destroy the entire world gets incinerated, thus completing the dismantlement of Shepard's mind, knowing that there is no way he can stop the reapers without destroying earth itself.

#265
CavScout

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hexediter wrote...
1. Wrong, he wasn't ozzing blood out of that wound untill right after
Anderson died, and it just so happens to be the exact spot he shot
Anderson.  You didn't awnser my question, you tried to dodge it, and you
didn't even do that successfully.

2. So your saying he did survive an explosion on the citadel, re-entry
through the atmosphere, and landing at terminal velocity?  Or that scene
with rubbel and concrete (not material used in construction of the
citadel) is not earth.  I mean it's almost certainly not the citadel where else did shepard magically transport to?

3.  So a giant machine that is beyond the technology and power of anything else created before in history that makes a **** ton of energy (the crucable) is in no way comparaple to an astaroid?  They didn't safely dismantle the relays, they exploded.

4.  Because it's a dream!  In the entire rest of the game shepard's voice does not echo, it was put there on purpose, they don't accidentally make his voice echo.  Could even go further and say how is he talking at all without a helmet makeing air for his voice to travel through since he appears to be in space, but can chalk that up to narrative taking priority over minor detail potentially.

5.  Because in IT thoery you don't have to explain that scene, it was a dream lol.  Without IT you now have to explain it... thus my last comment on the luck.


1) Shep is wounded from the beam blast up through that scene. You can't show that the blood is from a bullet wound and not just from the wounds he received prior.

2) I am saying I don't know where he is or how he got there. Was it Earth or remains of the Citadel? Did he fall back to Earth in a piece of the Citadel? Did he somehow make it back to the beam? It doesn't prove indoctrination in any case.

3) Arrival showed what happened when a big asteroid hits a relay. In ME3 there are no asteroids hitting the relays. Why are you insisting that the destructions would be exactly the same?

4)Echo doesn't prove "dream" or "indoctrinatin". Echoes prove there were echos. Maybe it's just the design of the room they are in.

5) That's the beauty of Indoctrination Theory. Anything you can't explain you just shout "It was indoctrination!" It's a nice little built-in "I Win" button for the theory.

#266
Va1us

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THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

My favorite is how the approach to Anderson in the final area is 1) collector ship parts 2) Shadowbroker's ship parts and 3) normandy parts leading up to 4) illusive man's favorite room

The indoctrination is using parts of your mind to construct the area like the Geth virtual world.


Here's some shots, only just recognized some Omega in there too.

Link (just in case): i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dbzakj/Untitled-3.jpg
Better link: i.imgur.com/oHO5N.jpg

Image IPB


Exactly. ^_^

#267
The Smitchens

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Va1us wrote...

THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

My favorite is how the approach to Anderson in the final area is 1) collector ship parts 2) Shadowbroker's ship parts and 3) normandy parts leading up to 4) illusive man's favorite room

The indoctrination is using parts of your mind to construct the area like the Geth virtual world.


Here's some shots, only just recognized some Omega in there too.

Link (just in case): i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff16/dbzakj/Untitled-3.jpg
Better link: i.imgur.com/oHO5N.jpg

Image IPB


Exactly. ^_^


The Omega part also kinda looks like the derelict reaper with those huge... what are they?  Ducts?  Hanging around.

Image IPB

#268
TransientNomad

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blooregard wrote...

I thought the reason you only have the destroy ending for low EMS is because in bringing the galaxy to the reapers you ultimately sucked at it so the reapers didn't see much use for you and simply left you with the destroy ending and you ended up dead anyway.


I would tend to aggree with this, but that leaves the question, why bother with the illusion at all.  Could be they are just lulling you into a false sense of security waiting for you to bleed out while you are unconcious on earth.  Still, why bother? 

However, you don't get the "Breath" scene if EMS is too low with the destroy ending as well.  Something to think about.  Still, even with that one plothole, I would've preferred the Indoc theory to be the case over what we got anyway.

#269
Capeo

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Haha. I love how unlimited ammo in the beginning of the game is just a mechanic but at the end, when it's used the same way as a million other games do for dramatic effect, it's suddenly chock full of meaning. Oh, and by the way, potholes can only exist as evidence of something if they are unusual in the context of the narrative. The entire game is utterly rife with them so assigning arbitrary value to the ones you think are important does not constitute evidence of anything. Actual evidence are things like the game which tells you you defeated the Reapers no matter your choice. Actual evidence is the script which matches the game and has no IT. Actual evidence is Final Hours. Actual evidence is Ray defending the endings as is. Actual evidence is Drew saying these are the same endings they were planning even when he was still there.

I find it stunning, beyond all of the above, that anyone could possibly think a game company would release an incomplete game with a fake ending to the press to be reviewed. I mean, honestly, it is an utterly ridiculous thesis. Even after all the public defending of the endings BW has already made people are so deluded that they'd actually prefer the ending to be the most reviled of all literary endings: it was all a dream.

#270
THEE_DEATHMASTER

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The Smitchens wrote...

The Omega part also kinda looks like the derelict reaper with those huge... what are they?  Ducts?  Hanging around.

Image IPB

Yeah I think you're closer actually. The ones on Omega are thinner.

#271
Crusina

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Capeo wrote...

Haha. I love how unlimited ammo in the beginning of the game is just a mechanic but at the end, when it's used the same way as a million other games do for dramatic effect, it's suddenly chock full of meaning. Oh, and by the way, potholes can only exist as evidence of something if they are unusual in the context of the narrative. The entire game is utterly rife with them so assigning arbitrary value to the ones you think are important does not constitute evidence of anything. Actual evidence are things like the game which tells you you defeated the Reapers no matter your choice. Actual evidence is the script which matches the game and has no IT. Actual evidence is Final Hours. Actual evidence is Ray defending the endings as is. Actual evidence is Drew saying these are the same endings they were planning even when he was still there.

I find it stunning, beyond all of the above, that anyone could possibly think a game company would release an incomplete game with a fake ending to the press to be reviewed. I mean, honestly, it is an utterly ridiculous thesis. Even after all the public defending of the endings BW has already made people are so deluded that they'd actually prefer the ending to be the most reviled of all literary endings: it was all a dream.

You still had to reload, and you " ran" out.

I'd call you dumb, but your sensitive feelings would be hurt.

It's a theory, we have things we have come to conclude as evidence, what the **** does it matter to you if someone believes in it or not?

Cry harder baby.

#272
Well

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If folks want to believe in IT it is their business.To me it would be trading one lie for another.No thanks.

#273
Lokanaiya

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Shepard does have a tendency to get up and kick ass at the worst possible time for his enemies. Maybe they just sent him that dream to keep him busy and make sure he doesn't do SOMETHING to seriously mess up their chances of winning?

Yes, I guess I am reaching here. I actually can't really think of a good reason for that, besides what's already been mentioned. I still think it's true however. See my sig for why.

The fact still remains that even with this, there's still more evidence for Indoc theory than against.

#274
Holoe4

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But if you choose it with a low EMS earth is toast,
and with a high EMS it shows your shepard breathing under concrete and rubble.

Just throwing that out there... :alrightythen:

#275
The Smitchens

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THEE_DEATHMASTER wrote...

The Smitchens wrote...

The Omega part also kinda looks like the derelict reaper with those huge... what are they?  Ducts?  Hanging around.

Image IPB

Yeah I think you're closer actually. The ones on Omega are thinner.


The more I think about it the more it makes sense, actually.  Lighting wise it looks just like Omega, sure.  But it stands to reason that being aboard a reaper would be a big opportunity for indoctrination to set in.  So it's believable that its influence would come out much like the collector ship had.