300 réponses à ce sujet

[SC0TTYD00]

Isn't there an action mode that makes the choice for you? What happens when you use this? Does it choose the ending for you or does it interrupt the illusive man from shooting anderson etc?

[Lethys1]

SC0TTYD00 wrote...

Isn't there an action mode that makes the choice for you? What happens when you use this? Does it choose the ending for you or does it interrupt the illusive man from shooting anderson etc?

Since you don't choose it with words and physically move Shep to make the choice, they let you choose it in action mode.

[ChuckieJ]

Very good question. My own theory on this is that when your fleet strength is that low, the Reapers can easily wipe everyone out. They are not scared of you at all and feel no need to trick you.

At medium levels they present you with a better sounding option (control). When you have a really strong force they present you with two better sounding alternatives (control & synthesis).

[SC0TTYD00]

The greater the threat, the more elaborate the deception. I Believe!!!

[Reofeir]

ChuckieJ wrote...

Very good question. My own theory on this is that when your fleet strength is that low, the Reapers can easily wipe everyone out. They are not scared of you at all and feel no need to trick you.

At medium levels they present you with a better sounding option (control). When you have a really strong force they present you with two better sounding alternatives (control & synthesis).

But the question is why all the mind tricks? Why do the reapers have to do such a midn trick on shepard, and instead just let him die. If he is not needed, couldn't they of just left him there to die and not interfere with his mind in any way shape or form? I don't get that.

[Lethys1]

ChuckieJ wrote...

Very good question. My own theory on this is that when your fleet strength is that low, the Reapers can easily wipe everyone out. They are not scared of you at all and feel no need to trick you.

At medium levels they present you with a better sounding option (control). When you have a really strong force they present you with two better sounding alternatives (control & synthesis).

Then why not just tell us that Shepard is dead instead of showing us all these ellaborate illusions?

[Scorpii]

This ending is all made backward... the more EMS you acquire, the worst are the choices you get...

[nevar00]

Don't try and poke holes in it, this is basically the only thing we have left that can save us from those endings aside from a total retcon.

Is the IT perfect? No, and although I think they were playing around with Indocrination I do not believe the intention was for that final scene to be interpreted as something going on in Shepard's head. So yes there will be holes here and there, but nothing compared to the gaping plot holes the ending itself has given us if taken at face value.

[Joush]

I don't know. Shepard's shown that strong willed people can overcome indoctrination enough to kill themselves. (Saren)

Maybe low EMS ending is bad-destroy because all Shepard has the strength to after overcoming the Illusive Man illusion is to kill him or herself before he or she is used by the reapers.

[TheProfessor234]

Then why not just tell us that Shepard is dead instead of showing us all these ellaborate illusions?

Because what kind of story is that?

Honestly, if this does turn out to be Indoctrination, it's nothing but genius, except for not having the real ending part. All the little clues and subtle information that gets thrown out helps it all add up. You can call it grasping at straws but they specifically added one of Vega's random talking things to note how he hears a buzzing noise. How the Rachni queens talks about indoctrination being in their dreams as, "oily shadows," in ME1 and how you can kind of see that in Shepard's dreams.

The more I hear about this theory, the more it makes sense. When you build a video game, you don't just put time into things for no reason what so ever. There wouldn't be some random tree that just so happens to look like the one from your dreams in London after getting hit by Harbinger's beam. It would literally be a waste of money to put all this, "proof," into the game without it actually leading up to something.

Then again, we all got sucker punched by the ending we have now so it's all up in the air till its nailed down by BioWare. Anything goes till then.

[The Stabilo Boss]

If Bioware planned an ending continuation DLC all along, they would want everyone to have access to it, even people with low EMS. That would explain why Destroy is the only option that is always present. That may be why the game automatically saves a file at the beginning of the indoctrination sequence - so that if people get it wrong, they can go back and choose the ending that doesn't leave Shepard indoctrinated, allowing them to continue Shepard's journey.

As for the other endings requiring higher EMS, I guess that doesn't make much sense from an in game perspective, but it could just be Bioware trying to make us believe that the current ending is the real one, so they can amaze us with the IT twist. They must have known people would be pissed if your EMS ended up making absolutely no difference to the ending, so they presented the Control and Synthesis endings as "better" endings that you have to work harder for.

I'm not saying this is the actual reason, just throwing ideas out there.

[Praetor Knight]

For me, a low EMS could imply that Harby has less to distract it, and more opportunity to intensify its indoctrination field as Shepard is lying there in London.

[rfalzar]

[hexediter]

Lethys1 wrote...

ChuckieJ wrote...

Very good question. My own theory on this is that when your fleet strength is that low, the Reapers can easily wipe everyone out. They are not scared of you at all and feel no need to trick you.

At medium levels they present you with a better sounding option (control). When you have a really strong force they present you with two better sounding alternatives (control & synthesis).

Then why not just tell us that Shepard is dead instead of showing us all these ellaborate illusions?

Because that removes the veil behind the curtain from a story telling prespective.  They can't indoctrinate the player if you know for certain that is happening, if we knew it was true no one would choose the blue or green option (which one way or another will be revealed soon in this upcoming dlc).  Most would assume shepard is dead anyway cause you know, he was on the citadel in space and it blew up, unless you have the ending where you're on earth and seemingly alive, which should be beg the question why and how?  Did you magically not die in a huge explosion and then not burn up going through the earth's atmosphere and then survive landing at terminal velocity?  Or is something else at work here?

If you have low EMS star child asks you "Why are you here?" instead of "Wake up".  He is almost activly hostile to you.  I'm guessing he doesn't need you to harvest your entire species cause you failed to build an army that could threaten them.  The "dream" story remains because it has to or they can't indoctrinate the player, without it the veil is lifted and the ruse is shown for what it is.

As always, this doesn't imply that IT is true, only that it could be, make up your own damn mind.

[zzcoreyzz]

I remember from school we had a long course about conspiracy theories (9/11, JFK, etc.), that one of the main trademarks of a conspiracy theory was that it could never be proven wrong to its followers.
Any evidence that the theory was incorrect, would be added to the conspiracy. Example, Investigations into 9/11 concludes that it was a terrorist attack --> The american government was behind the investigation and is further proof they are trying to cover it up --> New evidence added to the theory.
Bioware saying they liked the current ending --> Bioware must mean AFTER the big reveal --> New evidence added to the theory.

[Draconis6666]

The question that I think should be asked if your going to bring EMS and its effects on the ending in relation to the Indoctrination Theory, is why does saving anderson allow you for the shepard living ending at a much lower EMS cost than if he dies. At that point in the game if anderson lives or dies should have no impact on anything, and certianly should not be tied to anything related to EMS and what ending you get.

While I am not really for or against IT, this one thing is interesting to me to consider in terms of what Anderson is supposed to represent if you take the ITs views. Of course there is always the chance that its just over complication for the sake of complication but yeah...

[Falcon509]

Bioware never planned IT. IT is a conjuration of fans. The canon ending is what Bioware originally released. They don't give a flying [expletive] if it doesn't make sense to the player, because it makes sense to them. IT will only be used by them if they want to save face with the RME movement, which they won't, because it isn't what they want.

Bioware/EA will release DLC that tries to clarify what happens in the end, nothing else. Expecting anything like a new ending will only end with disappointment. Accept Shepard's and the Galaxy's fate. Choice and life in the Mass Effect Milky Way is futile and is predetermined by forces greater than anyone else.

Sovereign was right. We cannot understand the Reaper's motivations or why things must happen the way they do. Acceptance of this fate is the only path to resolution and peace. Closure is just one surrender away from obtaining it. Surrender. Its the only way.

[Thorn Harvestar]

rfalzar wrote...

[Wabajakka]

Yes you don't get the breathing scene but....

It's easy to say this is the equivalent to Shepard dying in ME2. With low EMS fighting indoc isn't even an option, you were easy to trick as they gave you only one option (to destroy/win), your will/hope was weak, game over. (unlike with high EMS where the trick becomes more elaborate, yet if you defy it, you've broken free)

Modifié par Orange Tee, 26 mars 2012 - 06:04 .

[Sisterofshane]

Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.

Not sure if I fully believe in IT, but I'm going to play a little devil's advocate here.

The first thing I would like to point out is that it's not that Shepard is weak, but rather that the Resistance (galactic forces) are weak.  At which point we can argue that the Reapers no longer need to indoctrinate Shep - they are winning the battle anyway.

Second, the entire "indoctrination" is occuring while he/she is passed out amongst the rubble in London.  It is Shepard's subconcious that is continuing to fight, unwilling to give up.

If I were the Reapers, and I could sense Shep was about to get up, what I would do is give him the false sense of resolution.  I would WANT Shep to believe we were defeated, and that he/she could then "give up".  I would allow him/her to "destroy" us, and show him/her not only the end to the conflict that was to be expected (because lets face it, Shep went into the fight knowing the hammer and sword were weak, if we show anything less then full destruction, Shep might see through the deception and wake up) but I would also show him/her that the people that were most important (squaddies) were safe and had a new haven to populate.

If I were going to write an EXTENSION to the Indoctrinated endings, then it would proceed as follows:

- Low EMS, given only the option to destroy the Reapers, Shep essentially GIVES UP.  Dies amongst the London Rubble. Reapers win.

- Enough EMS to unlock Control Ending, picks it  - Shep is fully INDOCTRINATED.  Shep wakes up amongst the rubble, but sabotages the crucible instead of activating it.  Reapers win.

- Enough EMS to unlock the Synthesis ending, and picks it - Shep is only PARTIALLY indoctrinated.  With high enough will power, Shep can pass a resistance check to over come indoctrination later on, but perhaps only long enough to ensure the Reapers do not sabotage the crucible.  Reapers lose, but Shep dies (either by killing him/herself or by squaddies being forced to take him/her down).

- Highest EMS, picks the DESTROY ending.  Shep does not become indoctrinated.  Wakes up, activates the crucible, and LIVES.

[CarpeJugulum]

zzcoreyzz wrote...

I remember from school we had a long course about conspiracy theories (9/11, JFK, etc.), that one of the main trademarks of a conspiracy theory was that it could never be proven wrong to its followers.
Any evidence that the theory was incorrect, would be added to the conspiracy. Example, Investigations into 9/11 concludes that it was a terrorist attack --> The american government was behind the investigation and is further proof they are trying to cover it up --> New evidence added to the theory.
Bioware saying they liked the current ending --> Bioware must mean AFTER the big reveal --> New evidence added to the theory.

This is so true. I actually can't think of a way anyone could prove IT wrong. The entire thing is perfectly internally consistent, and if someone finds some evidence that contradicts it? Just twist IT to fit. I'm pretty sure that even if Bioware stated it was false, most of IT's followers would say something along the lines of "Of course they would say that." 

Challenge for anyone who believes IT: give me one piece of evidence that would refute the theory for you. If it couldn't, under any circumstances, be proven wrong, then calling it a "theory" is a joke. If you can't prove it wrong, then it fails as a logical argument, and all your evidence means nothing.

[dakka dakka]

The rebuttal is that with low EMS it means that you didn't give Indoctrination enough time to take full hold.

So in the end while the Reapers have in in their thrall they can't convince you that control or synthesize are good ideas. All they can do is convince you to destroy... but still breaking your will by showing Earth get incinerated...... Notice how you don't see Shep wake up?

Low EMS = no chance at even Indoc. Only death by total mind wipe.

This is basically according to Spoony.....a long shot idea but it sounds plausible.

Modifié par dakka dakka, 26 mars 2012 - 07:00 .

[gameshrk]

Lethys1 wrote...

According to the Indoc theory, the "destroy" option is the only way of breaking free from the Reapers.  Why, then, with a low Effective Military Score (between 0-1749) is the destroy option the only one that is offered?

So if you do the absolute minimum, you always overcome indoctrination?  That just makes no sense.

I really wish it was indoctrination theory, but it's not.  I believed in it about three days ago, but the level of writing required, the idea that all of what we saw was fake.....

And the idea that they sold us a game without an ending.  If Indoc Theory is true, we still need to fight off the Reapers.  Since no one made it to the actual Crucible, according to the theory, we might as well all be dead.

Edit: Many people think it has to do with that if Shep is weak (as shown by a low EMS score) then they no longer have to indoctrinate him.  

But why show him a hallucination at all if this is the case?  Why wouldn't they just kill him immediately then?  Why waste time showing him these images if he's so weak that he's not worth indoctrination?  Why even offer him the destroy option in his head, as people claim is the case?  It's just a waste, and Harbinger would probably be happier knowing the Shep knows the entire cycle is now doomed.

Sheppard could still technically get the crucible up and running with low ems, so the vision is just to stall him long enough to ensure that doesn't happen.

[CavScout]

dakka dakka wrote...

The rebuttal is that with low EMS it means that you didn't give Indoctrination enough time to take full hold.

So in the end while the Reapers have in in their thrall they can't convince you that control or synthesize are good ideas. All they can do is convince you to destroy... but still breaking your will by showing Earth get incinerated...... Notice how you don't see Shep wake up?

Low EMS = no chance at even Indoc. Only death by total mind wipe.

This is basically according to Spoony.....a long shot idea but it sounds plausible.

The rebuttal is "it's indoctrination!"